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Thread: Top Tier Amps

  1. #51
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    Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleSimonSays View Post
    It's about perception and MBL is tier 2? Really?



    My perception is that Nagra is definitely, definitely, definitely tier 1... and Gryphon would be tier 2...

    We all have a voice, don't we?

    Interesting. Hey, I love my amps, but they are solid tier 2 IMO.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
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    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  2. #52
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleSimonSays View Post
    It's about perception and MBL is tier 2? Really?



    My perception is that Nagra is definitely, definitely, definitely tier 1... and Gryphon would be tier 2...

    We all have a voice, don't we?

    Would anyone buy MBL amps outside a MBL system?
    Source: Technics SP10mk3 - Thales Simplicity II, TW Raven AC-3 - Graham Phantom, SME 3012-R, Exclusive P3,,Linn LP12 - Naim ARO
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    Amps: conrad johnson teflon premier 8a's, D'Agostino Momentum S250
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  3. #53

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    When I was younger MBL and Burmester we're the two big über expensive prestige brands from Germany... The type of gear you saw in those very grown up Park Avenue type apartments... Gold and chrome and mahogany... Not my thing at all but that was what luxury was back then so I guess my tier 1 perception of MBL comes from there!

    Audiophile on paper, poor bastard in reality...

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  4. #54
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    What is the trend today in "grown-up" Park Avenue apartments?
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  5. #55
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by XV-1 View Post
    Would anyone buy MBL amps outside a MBL system?
    I had a customer by the 9008 monos and 6010d from me for his Maggie 30.7’s. So, yes.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
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  6. #56
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthStar View Post
    What is the trend today in "grown-up" Park Avenue apartments?
    Shagging with stylish masks on.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  7. #57

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    If you only need 30 watts or less per channel this whole tier thing changes. I guess we need another thread for the "sweet" amps....lol.

  8. #58

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by XV-1 View Post
    Would anyone buy MBL amps outside a MBL system?
    Had the same question. Don’t think so.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    “Life’s too short to listen to bad audio.”

    Big rig: Brinkmann Taurus DD TT + 12.1 arm + Lyra Etna Lambda SL MC + HRS M3X2/ Cardas Clear Beyond phono/ Stillpoints LPI/ Brinkmann Edison mk2 phono + RöNT II Tube PS/ Synology NAS with Roon + HD Plex linear PSU + Shunyata HD/ AQ Vodka RJ45 + Aqvox Network Switch SE + AQ Diamond RJ45 into DAC/ Brinkmann Nyquist mk2/ Audionet Humboldt/ Cardas Clear Beyond ICs/ Kharma DB9-S 1.1 LS/ Inakustik Reference LS 4004 AIR/ Audioquest Niagara 5000/ Shunyata Alpha power (HC, Analogue, Digital)/ Finite Elemente Pagode Rack/ Stillpoints Ultra SS/ Vicoustic panels + Stillpoints Aperture II.

    Small rig: Naim UnitiServe/ Curious USB/ Tidal/ Linn Klimax DS3/ Shunyata Power cable/ Pass Labs INT-60/ Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II/ HiD Diamond 8/ Harbeth 30.2 40th Anniversary/ Shunyata Venom EU7 & Venom 3 HD.

    HP rig: MacBookAir/ Tidal/ Auralic Gemini 2000/ Sbooster LPSU/ Audeze LCD-2 Classic + WyWires Red/ Shunyata HD/ Shunyata Hydra 2/ Shunyata Venom.

  9. #59

    Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    As I said, I’m thinking price and perception.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Ok, there it is. Now that changes things.

    So, you say this is a list based on price and perception. Products being more expensive are more highly regarded. As simple as that. Fair enough.

    What would be interesting though, is a list based on performance and value. Then the most interesting components are the category killers IMHO. I.e. products that punch above their price point.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    “Life’s too short to listen to bad audio.”

    Big rig: Brinkmann Taurus DD TT + 12.1 arm + Lyra Etna Lambda SL MC + HRS M3X2/ Cardas Clear Beyond phono/ Stillpoints LPI/ Brinkmann Edison mk2 phono + RöNT II Tube PS/ Synology NAS with Roon + HD Plex linear PSU + Shunyata HD/ AQ Vodka RJ45 + Aqvox Network Switch SE + AQ Diamond RJ45 into DAC/ Brinkmann Nyquist mk2/ Audionet Humboldt/ Cardas Clear Beyond ICs/ Kharma DB9-S 1.1 LS/ Inakustik Reference LS 4004 AIR/ Audioquest Niagara 5000/ Shunyata Alpha power (HC, Analogue, Digital)/ Finite Elemente Pagode Rack/ Stillpoints Ultra SS/ Vicoustic panels + Stillpoints Aperture II.

    Small rig: Naim UnitiServe/ Curious USB/ Tidal/ Linn Klimax DS3/ Shunyata Power cable/ Pass Labs INT-60/ Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II/ HiD Diamond 8/ Harbeth 30.2 40th Anniversary/ Shunyata Venom EU7 & Venom 3 HD.

    HP rig: MacBookAir/ Tidal/ Auralic Gemini 2000/ Sbooster LPSU/ Audeze LCD-2 Classic + WyWires Red/ Shunyata HD/ Shunyata Hydra 2/ Shunyata Venom.

  10. #60

    Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    The marketplace for top tier amps is more crowded than ever with newcomers like Pillium, Block and others.

    What are your thoughts on the current amp market?

    Will we see a resurgence from brands like Ayre, Accustic Arts (an amp/preamp I had in the store and was floored by their performance) or Zanden or Ypsilon?

    Will we see newcomers like Block and others gaining interest or will the stranglehold from the big boys continue to hold?

    Back to the original question...

    While a tier listing will always be contentious, as the truth is in the eyes or the ears of the beholder, a different question is how the market will evolve.

    A general take from an economic point of view is, that usually in a constrained market (Covid induced depression) people tend to stick to their guns. I.e. are looking for already established value positions. That would would in principle speak for established players.

    However, the same effect creates room for challengers focusing on performance-based value. I.e. people are looking for better offers from either established players or challengers. But then again new entrants will struggle to establish a reputation. This creates an opportunity space for renewal at established players.

    One approach is looking at the market from price & perception point of view like Mike did. But a ranking/ tier list Is always subjective and hence difficult. Another perspective would be looking at established and new players from a performance & value point of view.

    This is just an excerpt of selected players’ performance and value positions from personal experience perspective (I do not have a comprehensive view):

    Traditionals:
    - Constellation: Highly acclaimed sound performance, but products don’t move and hence prices have strongly deteriorated - performance ++/ value - -
    - Boulder: Acclaimed, but also partly perceived dry, very high price points prohibitive for most of the market, some demo units highly discounted - performance +/ value -
    - Gryphon: Acclaimed sound, particularly in class A biased models, but design is an acquired taste and price points are very high - performance +/ value -
    - CH & Spectral: Very highly acclaimed sound for those who like it, but it’s an acquired taste, CH keeps innovating while Spectral is pretty much dead, esp. CH with prohibitively high price points - performance (+)(+)/ value +/-
    - Pass: Solid performers throughout the range, continuous innovation, but not the leader in any area - performance +/ value +
    - Dart: Top performers in highest tier, but on integrated level only average, prohibitive price points for anyone - performance ++/ value +
    - Soulution: Highly acclaimed, while too dry for some, great first years, but little innovation in nearly a decade and prices deteriorating strongly - performance ++/ value -
    - MBL: High-end bling bling golden rims etc, strictly system play - performance +/ value +/-
    - T+A: Keep innovating, full product range, but never quite the best-of-the-best, reputation problem - performance +/- / value +/-
    - Dag: High priced, high performing, a bit blingy design - performance ++/ value +
    - ARC & Octave: Do have their following with toob aficionados, but need to keep all focus on getting tubes to perform appropriately - performance +/ value -

    Movers & shakers:
    - Classé (superb value with high performance): For me one of the current top value providers, almost mere hi-fi heritage. But with the new Delta series shifting from high power to high current on high impedance level, and achieving really good results - performance +/ value +++
    - AudioNet (superb performance with relatively high value): Breaking new ground with the scientist series, but like CH, Spectral you need to like the sound signature (previous gen. very different), and accept rather high price points - performance +++/ value +

    Also ran:
    - AVM, ASR, Accustic Arts, VTL, Bryston, SimAudio, Naim, Ayre, Hegel, Macintosh, Symphonic Line, Aavik, Parasound, Bel Canto, Wyred, Cambridge, NAD (and a lots of others I’m not interested in either)


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    “Life’s too short to listen to bad audio.”

    Big rig: Brinkmann Taurus DD TT + 12.1 arm + Lyra Etna Lambda SL MC + HRS M3X2/ Cardas Clear Beyond phono/ Stillpoints LPI/ Brinkmann Edison mk2 phono + RöNT II Tube PS/ Synology NAS with Roon + HD Plex linear PSU + Shunyata HD/ AQ Vodka RJ45 + Aqvox Network Switch SE + AQ Diamond RJ45 into DAC/ Brinkmann Nyquist mk2/ Audionet Humboldt/ Cardas Clear Beyond ICs/ Kharma DB9-S 1.1 LS/ Inakustik Reference LS 4004 AIR/ Audioquest Niagara 5000/ Shunyata Alpha power (HC, Analogue, Digital)/ Finite Elemente Pagode Rack/ Stillpoints Ultra SS/ Vicoustic panels + Stillpoints Aperture II.

    Small rig: Naim UnitiServe/ Curious USB/ Tidal/ Linn Klimax DS3/ Shunyata Power cable/ Pass Labs INT-60/ Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II/ HiD Diamond 8/ Harbeth 30.2 40th Anniversary/ Shunyata Venom EU7 & Venom 3 HD.

    HP rig: MacBookAir/ Tidal/ Auralic Gemini 2000/ Sbooster LPSU/ Audeze LCD-2 Classic + WyWires Red/ Shunyata HD/ Shunyata Hydra 2/ Shunyata Venom.

  11. #61
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuoppis View Post
    Ok, there it is. Now that changes things.

    So, you say this is a list based on price and perception. Products being more expensive are more highly regarded. As simple as that. Fair enough.

    What would be interesting though, is a list based on performance and value. Then the most interesting components are the category killers IMHO. I.e. products that punch above their price point.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I’ve been saying “price & performance” since the OP. Some people will get some serious butt hurt if their beloved Halcro amp isn’t Tier 1. That isn’t the point of my post. I’m trying to gauge whether we can put personal biases aside and show what we believe the market (general high-end audio population) perceives a particular brand as.

    Value would be a whole different topic! That’s where our personal biases and experiences come into play. Maybe you can start one?
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  12. #62
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuoppis View Post
    Back to the original question...

    While a tier listing will always be contentious, as the truth is in the eyes or the ears of the beholder, a different question is how the market will evolve.

    A general take from an economic point of view is, that usually in a constrained market (Covid induced depression) people tend to stick to their guns. I.e. are looking for already established value positions. That would would in principle speak for established players.

    However, the same effect creates room for challengers focusing on performance-based value. I.e. people are looking for better offers from either established players or challengers. But then again new entrants will struggle to establish a reputation. This creates an opportunity space for renewal at established players.

    One approach is looking at the market from price & perception point of view like Mike did. But a ranking/ tier list Is always subjective and hence difficult. Another perspective would be looking at established and new players from a performance & value point of view.

    This is just an excerpt of selected players’ performance and value positions from personal experience perspective (I do not have a comprehensive view):

    Traditionals:
    - Constellation: Highly acclaimed sound performance, but products don’t move and hence prices have strongly deteriorated - performance ++/ value - -
    - Boulder: Acclaimed, but also partly perceived dry, very high price points prohibitive for most of the market, also demo units highly discounted - performance +/ value - -
    - Gryphon: Acclaimed sound, particularly in class A biased models, but design is an acquired taste and price points are very high - performance +/ value -
    - CH & Spectral: Very highly acclaimed sound for those who like it, but it’s an acquired taste, CH keeps innovating while Spectral is pretty much dead, esp. CH with prohibitively high price points - performance (+)(+)/ value +/-
    - Pass: Solid performers throughout the range, continuous innovation, but not the leader in any area - performance +/ value +
    - Dart: Top performers in highest tier, but on integrated level only average, prohibitive price points for anyone - performance ++/ value +
    - Soulution: Highly acclaimed, while too dry for some, great first years, but little innovation in nearly a decade and prices deteriorating strongly - performance ++/ value -
    - MBL: High-end bling bling golden rims etc, strictly system play - performance +/ value +/-
    - T+A: Keep innovating, full product range, but never quite the best-of-the-best, reputation problem - performance +/- / value +/-
    - Dag: High priced, high performing, a bit blingy design - performance ++/ value +
    - ARC & Octave: Do have their following with toob aficionados, but need to keep all focus on getting tubes to perform appropriately - performance +/ value -

    Movers & shakers:
    - Classé (superb value with high performance): For me one of the current top value providers, almost mere hi-fi heritage. But with the new Delta series shifting from high power to high current on high impedance level, and achieving really good results - performance +/ value +++
    - AudioNet (superb performance with relatively high value): Breaking new ground with the scientist series, but like CH, Spectral you need to like the sound signature (previous gen. very different), and accept rather high price points - performance +++/ value +

    Also ran:
    - AVM, ASR, Accustic Arts, VTL, Bryston, SimAudio, Naim, Ayre, Hegel, Macintosh, Symphonic Line, Aavik, Parasound, Bel Canto, Wyred, Cambridge, NAD (and a lots of others I’m not interested in either)


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Interesting observations.
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  13. #63
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    This is an interesting thread with the expected diversity of views. From a personal ownership perspective, I'm quite interested in the value component. It helps to protect me if I make a mistake or change course. Things like a high end brand's reputation for quality and performance, Bryston's 20-year transferrable warranty are important. I bought a new Mark Levinson No. 331 about 25 years ago at a small discount. It was the best that I could afford at the time. This was back in the day that ML was definitely a Tier 1 brand. I loved the sound. Sold it several years ago (never broken/re-capped) for about 1/3 of what I paid for it. A fine product, and the new owner is reportedly very happy. For me this is the kind of ownership experience I look for.

  14. #64

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I don’t know about you guys, but I see the amp market currently in basically four tiers:

    Tier 1: Gryphon, Boulder, Soulution, CH, D’Ag, Dart, Constellation, Goldmund, FM Acoustics, Vitus, MSB, Kondo, Wavac, etc.
    Tier 2: T+A, Pass XS, Sim 888, Naim 500, VAC, MBL, VTL, Nagra, Spectral, Esoteric Grandioso, AudioNet, Rowland, Air Tight, etc.
    Tier 3: Luxman, Sim, Pass, Naim, Classe’, Bryston, Hegel, Accuphase, ARC, Ayre, Mcintosh, etc.
    Tier 4: Parasound, Bel Canto, Wyred, Cambridge, NAD, etc.


    The marketplace for top tier amps is more crowded than ever with newcomers like Pillium, Block and others.

    What are your thoughts on the current amp market?

    Will we see a resurgence from brands like Ayre, Accustic Arts (an amp/preamp I had in the store and was floored by their performance) or Zanden or Ypsilon?

    Will we see newcomers like Block and others gaining interest or will the stranglehold from the big boys continue to hold?
    The only brand that I would seriously argue was misplaced was VAC ... I get that because they offer some lower priced components too that might have moved them down to Tier 2 but everyone that I know ... when we talk about VAC Statement ... consider it amongst the very best at any price and I think its price qualifies for Tier 1 pricing for sure! Of course "the best" will differ for each of us based on our own preferences which is great and opens the door for lots of competition.

    George
    Wilson Audio Alexx|Pair of Rel No25’s
    VAC Statement Preamplifier
    VAC Statement 452 Monoblocks
    Sonorus ATR10 MkII
    Esoteric D-02X|Esoteric P-02X|Aurender W20SE
    MIT Oracle MA-X SHD SC and IC
    Transparent Reference Power

  15. #65
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by gadawg View Post
    The only brand that I would seriously argue was misplaced was VAC ... I get that because they offer some lower priced components too that might have moved them down to Tier 2 but everyone that I know ... when we talk about VAC Statement ... consider it amongst the very best at any price and I think its price qualifies for Tier 1 pricing for sure! Of course "the best" will differ for each of us based on our own preferences which is great and opens the door for lots of competition.

    George
    Fair enough. Adjusted!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  16. #66

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    hey mike, do you think the hegel h 30 is tier 3 ? or just hegel in general. john

  17. #67
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    Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by johni b View Post
    hey mike, do you think the hegel h 30 is tier 3 ? or just hegel in general. john
    I loved my H30, but I think it’s in the same group (from a price/consumer perspective standpoint) as the Luxman m900u, Sim 860v2, Classe Delta Stereo, Pass X350.8.

    Thoughts?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    that is a nice sounding group for us average working joe's.

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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    where is something like a Lamm?
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    Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithR View Post
    where is something like a Lamm?
    We talked about Lamm above. It’s an odd one. MSRP is high, but resale is abysmal (for reasons I can’t say publicly). I recently had a customer in Atlanta trying to trade in over $120k MSRP worth of Lamm gear on either Soulution, Boulder or Gryphon. Dealers (including me) were giving him $15k on the Lamm gear. None of us wanted it.

    What do you think? Tier 2? Their low powered SET amps do sound wonderful.




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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I’ve been saying “price & performance” since the OP.
    can you elaborate on that?
    does the relation count? is high or low price better?

    love this tread but it would be easyer to do if it was about the performance & perception of the manufactors topmodels.
    mixing the price in is like water and oil imho.

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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by u-sound View Post
    can you elaborate on that?
    does the relation count? is high or low price better?

    love this tread but it would be easyer to do if it was about the performance & perception of the manufactors topmodels.
    mixing the price in is like water and oil imho.
    That’s a fair point. Price can often drive perception. If you see monoblocks for $175k from a well known brand, you may think “tier 1”. Sonically, you think tier 4! But I’m not talking about personal opinion of sonics. Check our biases at the door and look at the market as a whole. How is that amp brand perceived?

    I’m used to speaking with 50 or more audiophile folks a week and it’s interesting to see what they consider “top tier”. There is a general consensus (which I posted above in the first post). What I’m trying to figure out is whether you guys agree (there does appear to be some general consensus) and whether there are brands that maybe were tier 1, 5 years ago, but have fallen from grace. Jock mentioned some above.


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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Obviously I have little experience in most of these brands but a couple things come to mind. Are we talking over all brands or just individual models? Most of these manufactures make multiple lines of gear. Would the Goldmund models also include Job (they were manufactured side by side, and yes I know they are now discontinued). Just trying to gain a perspective.

    Another example, would the T+A Amp 8 be included in the T+A on your list? We compared it to several amps and it always came out on top.

    How about historical perspective? Many people feel classic McIntosh's would compare with many of these, but would not put current Mc's with any of these. As an example I prefer my classic McIntosh's over any amplifier I have owned, which have been a decent amount.

    Resale may also be considered a factor. Many of these brands would be extremely hard to resell while, McIntosh, ARC, etc., sell extremely easy and for top dollar.
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    ok, i d call that imagination due impact.

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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    good point randy, so many brands have top tier and lower tier at the same time

  26. #76

    Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by GSOphile View Post
    This is an interesting thread with the expected diversity of views. From a personal ownership perspective, I'm quite interested in the value component. It helps to protect me if I make a mistake or change course. Things like a high end brand's reputation for quality and performance, Bryston's 20-year transferrable warranty are important. I bought a new Mark Levinson No. 331 about 25 years ago at a small discount. It was the best that I could afford at the time. This was back in the day that ML was definitely a Tier 1 brand. I loved the sound. Sold it several years ago (never broken/re-capped) for about 1/3 of what I paid for it. A fine product, and the new owner is reportedly very happy. For me this is the kind of ownership experience I look for.
    I’m also commenting from an ownership point of view.

    Current thoughts:
    - I think the Classé monos are a bargain for what they do. The pre is somewhat gadgety, but I think I could live with it
    - at the same time, I do like the Boulder 1110/ 2160 combo, in demos and also in Mike’s videos they do sound great

    But:
    - while the Classé set is a great offer for what they do, but would I stick with them a while
    - alternatively, it’s that I just would have to sink in three times the money to get the Boulders, but when I later sell, the re-sale value is maybe only 1/3 higher than the Classé combo

    Caveat emptor.


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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    i see thouse classés took your strong attention
    tier1?

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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    We talked about Lamm above. It’s an odd one. MSRP is high, but resale is abysmal (for reasons I can’t say publicly). I recently had a customer in Atlanta trying to trade in over $120k MSRP worth of Lamm gear on either Soulution, Boulder or Gryphon. Dealers (including me) were giving him $15k on the Lamm gear. None of us wanted it.

    What do you think? Tier 2? Their low powered SET amps do sound wonderful.




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    What top Tier speakers are those ..?

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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by XV-1 View Post
    Would anyone buy MBL amps outside a MBL system?




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  30. #80

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    What top Tier speakers are those ..?
    Speakers or acoustic panels?

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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    great thread ...really thought provoking -- in a good way.

    all day i have been seriously struggling with the consumer perception aspect you are trying to drill down on. and, every time i try to get my head around it there is just no way i can reconcile it with most of the list. taking performance completely out of the equation really begs the question: what then is actually left and what is it about a brand that appeals to me?

    my take on the list (particularly as initially specified) is that there is nothing special about most of the brands. they are just different versions of an expensive box full of electrical parts. what then is there to get excited about? there is no uniqueness, rareness, interesting back-story -- nothing to compel one's interest.

    perhaps this is why i am attracted to the smaller, artisanal brands that fly well under the radar of the mass-affluent demographic. their products are produced in quite small quantities. you get to interact with the owner / designer / builder... its fun to learn about, to (often times) uniquely configure, and then to own this type gear. there is something special about it -- i did not just walk in and plunk down a large sum for a "commodity product". rather, i got a piece of art with a soul that also plays music.

    so, perhaps, what i am trying to articulate is that in the absence of SQ as a consideration, price is not something that influences my individual "consumer perception" ...it is the intangible qualities of a brand that make it unique and generate that pride-of-ownership feeling that would be my metric for deciding tier.

    in any event, this thread would make a great case study at business schools.
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Fair point. The counter argument to the smaller, artisan brands is resale. Many in the audio community are already thinking about selling their amp before they’ve even bought it!

    Think of a consumer who buys a pair of Magico M6’s, is he thinking “oh that Jolida amp should be good”? Probably not. He’s thinking Soulution, Boulder, CH, Gryphon, etc. Again, tier 1 electronics with a tier 1 speaker.

    Maybe a better analogy is cars. If we are talking tier 1 luxury cars, would we be thinking Mercedes Benz, Bentley, Jaguar, etc or Hyundai? That new Genesis G90 is the bomb, but would you consider Hyundai tier 1? Haven’t they sound Genesis off into it’s own brand like Toyota (Lexus) and Honda (Acura) and Nissan (infinity)?


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  33. #83

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by u-sound View Post
    i see thouse classés took your strong attention
    tier1?
    Maybe tier 2 for me Top Tier Amps.


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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by GSOphile View Post


    That's where I'm at also.

    Somewhat of a surprise to see virtually no mention of Conrad-Johnson or Zesto.

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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Really interesting list and discussion. Thanks, Mike, for the starting the discussion.

    Of the amps listed in tier 1, the ones I've heard (since I haven't been to an audiophile show since 2019) and liked the most would be MBL, DartZeel, and Wavac. Of these three, the one I have most direct experience with is Wavac, and those were simply amazing. Likely the best-sounding amps I've ever heard. Very lifelike and engaging, and in a really good way.

    Wondering, Mike, where you'd put Ayon. I know Caelin has (if memory serves) an Ayon Crossfire SET, and he really, really likes that amp with his DeVores, IIRC.

    I'm with a number of the folks that find CH Precision and Soulution to be on the dry side. Guess I'm a tube guy at heart! Hence my love for the Wavacs.

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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    Really interesting list and discussion. Thanks, Mike, for the starting the discussion.

    Of the amps listed in tier 1, the ones I've heard (since I haven't been to an audiophile show since 2019) and liked the most would be MBL, DartZeel, and Wavac. Of these three, the one I have most direct experience with is Wavac, and those were simply amazing. Likely the best-sounding amps I've ever heard. Very lifelike and engaging, and in a really good way.

    Wondering, Mike, where you'd put Ayon. I know Caelin has (if memory serves) an Ayon Crossfire SET, and he really, really likes that amp with his DeVores, IIRC.

    I'm with a number of the folks that find CH Precision and Soulution to be on the dry side. Guess I'm a tube guy at heart! Hence my love for the Wavacs.
    Ayon is one of those brands that makes a good product, but not a lot of dealers carry it likely due to the distributor. I personally don’t have a lot of experience with it, other than shows (usually with Legacy speakers). What’s your thoughts? Tier 2?


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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Fair point. The counter argument to the smaller, artisan brands is resale. Many in the audio community are already thinking about selling their amp before they’ve even bought it!

    Think of a consumer who buys a pair of Magico M6’s, is he thinking “oh that Jolida amp should be good”? Probably not. He’s thinking Soulution, Boulder, CH, Gryphon, etc. Again, tier 1 electronics with a tier 1 speaker.

    Maybe a better analogy is cars. If we are talking tier 1 luxury cars, would we be thinking Mercedes Benz, Bentley, Jaguar, etc or Hyundai? That new Genesis G90 is the bomb, but would you consider Hyundai tier 1? Haven’t they sound Genesis off into it’s own brand like Toyota (Lexus) and Honda (Acura) and Nissan (infinity)?


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    lmao!! ...the genesis / hyundai would NOT satisfy the intangible test. i would, however, offer tesla as a tier-1 on intangibles, model 3 included.

    in the event i upgrade speakers to the level of a magico m6, then i am thinking the likes of thomas mayer, ares cerat and audio tekne. every bit as expensive as the usual suspects but (not being able to consider SQ) the intangibles make the sale for me.
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  38. #88

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Fair point. The counter argument to the smaller, artisan brands is resale. Many in the audio community are already thinking about selling their amp before they’ve even bought it!

    Think of a consumer who buys a pair of Magico M6’s, is he thinking “oh that Jolida amp should be good”? Probably not. He’s thinking Soulution, Boulder, CH, Gryphon, etc. Again, tier 1 electronics with a tier 1 speaker.

    Maybe a better analogy is cars. If we are talking tier 1 luxury cars, would we be thinking Mercedes Benz, Bentley, Jaguar, etc or Hyundai? That new Genesis G90 is the bomb, but would you consider Hyundai tier 1? Haven’t they sound Genesis off into it’s own brand like Toyota (Lexus) and Honda (Acura) and Nissan (infinity)?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

    I don't think Genesis would ever go tier 1 because of perception and snobbery. They are probably perceived more tier 3 flirting with tier 2 yet the reality is, I believe, they would be much closer to tier 1 for most casual enthusiasts in A-B testing. But for cars aficionados, looking for 0-60 in 3.4 seconds in everything, Genesis would probably always be a pimped Hyundai regardless of the massive jump in their latest lines...

    What's your perception of Lexus? Tier 2 still or have they achieve tier 1 after all those years?
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    I would rate Accuphase as a tier 1 brand also, can really appreciate how that company works, evolution instead of revolution, outstanding quality and feel, and very faithfull to importers, dealers and customers, tier 3 is really to low IMHO offcourse.
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleSimonSays View Post
    I don't think Genesis would ever go tier 1 because of perception and snobbery. They are probably perceived more tier 3 flirting with tier 2 yet the reality is, I believe, they would be much closer to tier 1 for most casual enthusiasts in A-B testing. But for cars aficionados, looking for 0-60 in 3.4 seconds in everything, Genesis would probably always be a pimped Hyundai regardless of the massive jump in their latest lines...

    What's your perception of Lexus? Tier 2 still or have they achieve tier 1 after all those years?
    Great point. That’s what I’m getting at. Perception. The price is there (sort of), but the perception?

    For me? Lexus is Tier 2.
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by imprezap2 View Post
    I would rate Accuphase as a tier 1 brand also, can really appreciate how that company works, evolution instead of revolution, outstanding quality and feel, and very faithfull to importers, dealers and customers, tier 3 is really to low IMHO offcourse.
    I love Accuphase. Would sure love some 250’s! But in Japan, the brand is considered like McIntosh here. It has the price, but what’s the general perception? Tier 2?
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  42. #92

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Ayon is one of those brands that makes a good product, but not a lot of dealers carry it likely due to the distributor. I personally don’t have a lot of experience with it, other than shows (usually with Legacy speakers). What’s your thoughts? Tier 2?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Mike
    Caelin Gabriel in this thread:
    What's a component you just love
    Seemed to rate the Ayon Crossfire much higher than tier2.

  43. #93
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleSimonSays View Post
    I don't think Genesis would ever go tier 1 because of perception and snobbery. They are probably perceived more tier 3 flirting with tier 2 yet the reality is, I believe, they would be much closer to tier 1 for most casual enthusiasts in A-B testing. But for cars aficionados, looking for 0-60 in 3.4 seconds in everything, Genesis would probably always be a pimped Hyundai regardless of the massive jump in their latest lines...

    What's your perception of Lexus? Tier 2 still or have they achieve tier 1 after all those years?
    Lexus and Infinity have Tier1 vehicles , Hyundai with Genesis closer but not yet solid tier 2 with Genesis ..

  44. #94
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I love Accuphase. Would sure love some 250’s! But in Japan, the brand is considered like McIntosh here. It has the price, but what’s the general perception? Tier 2?
    Accuphase is well built for decades , Tier 2 because of a lack of familiarity with their new stuff, but i can see Tier1 is a possibility. The recent comments onMcIntosh lead me to believe their older stuff was better sounding ..

  45. #95
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    Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucidear View Post
    Mike
    Caelin Gabriel in this thread:
    What's a component you just love
    Seemed to rate the Ayon Crossfire much higher than tier2.
    Is that the general market perspective? Perhaps. Is it known enough to be ranked that high? So few dealers have it.

    Would a tier 1 brand be constantly advertised on audiogon?

    Fair question...

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  46. #96
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    accuphase is the best known brand in switzerland, no joke!
    defenately tier1

  47. #97
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Also missing are Ypsilon, Robert Koda and Zanden. I would rank Ypsilon above Lamm All-day-long, same for Zanden. I still think Rowland belongs in tier 1, who else had multi-axis CNC machines grinding out chassis' when Jeff thought of doing it back in the day...still waiting.

  48. #98
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by u-sound View Post
    accuphase is the best known brand in switzerland, no joke!
    defenately tier1
    Accuphase is glorified Kenwood in Japan, no Joke!

  49. #99
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    Accuphase is gloried Kenwood in Japan, no Joke!
    loool

  50. #100

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Lexus and Infinity have Tier1 vehicles , Hyundai with Genesis closer but not yet solid tier 2 with Genesis ..

    I agree with you yet I don't think neither Lexus or Infiniti will ever achieve Tier 1 status... They are still perceived Tier 2 for some reason...
    Audiophile on paper, poor bastard in reality...

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