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Thread: Small power amp

  1. #1
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    Small power amp

    Dear insightful audiosharks,

    I am extremely happy with a Hegel H90 that has a beautiful integrated DAC as well as a very nice sounding A/B class amp inside that delivers 60W @ 8ohms with a damping factor of 2000.

    However, since I look more and more for no nonsense designs, I am orienting towards a power amp with 1 analog input.

    I found e.g. from the same brand a H20 which delivers 200W @ 8ohms so at my 4ohm speakers this is way too much power of 400W.

    Is someone aware of small power amps with excellent analog sounding quality even above Hegel but with just one power on/off button and preferrably a dual mono design?

    Any helpful comments are truly appreciated.

    Have a good one, cheers!

  2. #2
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    Re: Small power amp

    It depends upon how much power you need, type of power preference, etc. However, one very good line of lower powered amps are the First Watts from Nelson Pass!
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

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  3. #3

    Re: Small power amp

    A First Watt F6 would fit your needs perfectly. (couldn't resist)

  4. #4
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    Re: Small power amp

    Quote Originally Posted by stereogeek View Post
    A First Watt F6 would fit your needs perfectly. (couldn't resist)
    Trade ya my Magnepan's with the Magna Risers for it .
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

    “One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong”
    "You can't use reason to convince anyone out of an argument that they didn't use reason to get into"
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    Re: Small power amp

    You should consider one of Frank Van Alstine's amps. They are no nonsense and he can make it with one input if you like I am sure. I occasionally review his gear for him on the AC forum. They perform way above their price points. Some of his amps sound better than my Pass X250. His newer designs are fabulous. Everything is made to order and there is a 30 day no questions asked return policy. Frank is very approachable and if you have questions, call him. If you are looking for fancy bling chassis then look elsewhere.

    Audio by Van Alstine
    My Gear- Mains System-Pass X250 amp, BAT VK-51se preamp, Luxman DA-06 DAC, Magnepan 1.6's, Thorens TD-145 TT, Dual Martin Logan Subs, Vintage Luxman T-110 Tuner, Cables-WW Platinum 7 USB, Cardas Parsec XLR, AQ Columbia DBS 72v XLR, Belden 8402 XLR.

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    Re: Small power amp

    Is it strange that I look for an even smaller amp than my current 60W at 8Ohm / 120W at 4Ohm?
    I just guess my speakers, and they're kind of inefficient (4Ohm 86dB at 1m/2.83V), go above and beyond my comfort level in terms of loudness.

    Quickly calculated the current set delivers 107dB max. I'd cut it in 4 at least if I would need to estimate this. This brings me back to 8W at 8Ohm = 16W at 4 Ohm, correct? But, does such a "small" amplifier still qualify as "power" amp?

    For ref, if I send inputs to Hegel at their full level i.e. unity, I'd set the Hegel to 40 out of 100 max, and when Hegel is set at HomeTheater / unity gain, I need to set a digital player to 46% output max, or in case of a digital mixer I need to set it to -30dB level to get what I want out of Hegel.

    Who can help determine the power needed?

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    Re: Small power amp

    I have never heard of someone wanting less power. I'm of the opinion you can't have too much power. Just don't turn it up as loud and the rest is reserve.

    If your heart is set look at Schiit who has some low power amps. There are a variety of SET tube amps with very low power output. I'm not all that familiar but there were some inexpensive Class D amps that only put out about 10 watts, the were all the rage about 10 years ago but I forget the name.
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    Re: Small power amp

    Quote Originally Posted by plonkywonki View Post
    Is it strange that I look for an even smaller amp than my current 60W at 8Ohm / 120W at 4Ohm?
    I just guess my speakers, and they're kind of inefficient (4Ohm 86dB at 1m/2.83V), go above and beyond my comfort level in terms of loudness.

    Quickly calculated the current set delivers 107dB max. I'd cut it in 4 at least if I would need to estimate this. This brings me back to 8W at 8Ohm = 16W at 4 Ohm, correct? But, does such a "small" amplifier still qualify as "power" amp?

    For ref, if I send inputs to Hegel at their full level i.e. unity, I'd set the Hegel to 40 out of 100 max, and when Hegel is set at HomeTheater / unity gain, I need to set a digital player to 46% output max, or in case of a digital mixer I need to set it to -30dB level to get what I want out of Hegel.

    Who can help determine the power needed?
    Calculating the power needed is easy , trying to figure what it is you really want , now thats the challenge ..!



    * An Audiophile is only as old as his latest Class D incarnation *

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    Re: Small power amp

    I would say Lumin Amp .
    Flemming

    Lumin X1
    Rotel Michi S5
    Focus Audio FS788

    Inter connect : Nordost Tyr 2 ( 2 Meter )
    LS cable : Yter
    Power Cables : Nordost Frey 2 ( 2 Meter )
    Nordost QB8
    Fibercable for feeding the Lumin X1
    Rack : Finite Elemente Pagode

  10. #10
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    Re: Small power amp

    Amp power is like money. The more you have then the better off you are.
    Bud

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    Re: Small power amp

    Check out Crown's "Amplifier Power Required" calculator ... HERE.

    Bear in mind that the calculator is for a single speaker in an anechoic environment. A stereo system with the calculated power per channel will reduce the requirement by 6 dB; an normal listening room with some echo will further reduce the requirement by 3 dB or more.

    You'll notice that your average listening level is critical to the calculation. Headroom is also important: you should probably allow 20 dB in case of Classical music, less for other genres.

    I suspect there is a tendancy for folks to overestimate their average listening level. Realistically my average level is never over 72 bB; I allow 20 dB for headroom given I listen to mostly Classical. I was surprised at how little power I actually need.
    ~ Bill

    Win10/Foobar2000 => Topping D90 DAC => Sonic Frontiers Line 1 SE+ preamp => VTV Purifi 1ET400A stereo amp with Sparkos SS3602 op amps => Zaph Audio ZRT speakers (DIY) + PSB Subsonic 5 subwoofer

  12. #12
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    Re: Small power amp

    Don't forget listening distance and insertion losses increases power requirement too ..!
    * An Audiophile is only as old as his latest Class D incarnation *

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    Re: Small power amp

    Quote Originally Posted by plonkywonki View Post
    Dear insightful audiosharks,

    I am extremely happy with a Hegel H90 that has a beautiful integrated DAC as well as a very nice sounding A/B class amp inside that delivers 60W @ 8ohms with a damping factor of 2000.

    However, since I look more and more for no nonsense designs, I am orienting towards a power amp with 1 analog input.

    I found e.g. from the same brand a H20 which delivers 200W @ 8ohms so at my 4ohm speakers this is way too much power of 400W.

    Is someone aware of small power amps with excellent analog sounding quality even above Hegel but with just one power on/off button and preferrably a dual mono design?

    Any helpful comments are truly appreciated.

    Have a good one, cheers!
    Get a First Watt.

    Stereogeek is selling an excellent First Watt F6 at a great price.

  14. #14
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    Re: Small power amp

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    Check out Crown's "Amplifier Power Required" calculator ... HERE.

    Bear in mind that the calculator is for a single speaker in an anechoic environment. A stereo system with the calculated power per channel will reduce the requirement by 6 dB; an normal listening room with some echo will further reduce the requirement by 3 dB or more.

    You'll notice that your average listening level is critical to the calculation. Headroom is also important: you should probably allow 20 dB in case of Classical music, less for other genres.

    I suspect there is a tendancy for folks to overestimate their average listening level. Realistically my average level is never over 72 bB; I allow 20 dB for headroom given I listen to mostly Classical. I was surprised at how little power I actually need.
    Thanks for the tips and background.

    My math.
    3 m listening distance
    I'd aim at a 96dB max level including the amp headroom of 20dB. This leaves 76dB for normal listening less 6 for stereo setup less 3 for echoes & flutter and adding 3 dB as rounding -> 70dB desired.
    sensitivity 86
    headroom we know from above is 20

    I'd end up with 23W, round it up with 20% and we're almost at 30W required. That is surprisingly low (?),

  15. #15

    Re: Small power amp

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    Get a First Watt.

    Stereogeek is selling an excellent First Watt F6 at a great price.
    Thanks for the plug.

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    Re: Small power amp

    Ask your dealer to let you take home the h190, The hegel integrateds sound identical to each other, the h90, 190, and 390 will sound alike up to clipping, but if your speakers are getting uncomfortable to listen to more likely you're clipping the amp. Just for fun try the more powerful amp with your trusty db meter side by side and listen.
    KEF Blade, Mc-611's, C49 rega jupiter, roon nucleus, revox tuner. Meridian dsp8000 se upgrade, meridian 218 zone controller VA Beethoven's, Hegel h360.

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    Re: Small power amp

    Quote Originally Posted by plonkywonki View Post
    Thanks for the tips and background.

    My math.
    3 m listening distance
    I'd aim at a 96dB max level including the amp headroom of 20dB. This leaves 76dB for normal listening less 6 for stereo setup less 3 for echoes & flutter and adding 3 dB as rounding -> 70dB desired.
    sensitivity 86
    headroom we know from above is 20

    I'd end up with 23W, round it up with 20% and we're almost at 30W required. That is surprisingly low (?),
    I guess for those advocating First Watt amps 30 wpc isn't "low". But I suspect it's common for folks to think they need 100 wpc or even much more. My listening circumstances are very similar to yours and I agree with a figure for me too of 30 wpc or a couple of dB lower.

    In practical terms that would leave any First Watt model marginal, not to mention 300B SETs. However most Dynaco ST-70-type amps should do fine.
    ~ Bill

    Win10/Foobar2000 => Topping D90 DAC => Sonic Frontiers Line 1 SE+ preamp => VTV Purifi 1ET400A stereo amp with Sparkos SS3602 op amps => Zaph Audio ZRT speakers (DIY) + PSB Subsonic 5 subwoofer

  18. #18
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    Re: Small power amp

    If you have 96db/W/M loudspeakers 30watts will be enuff to avoid clipping at reasonable listening levels (86db max din ) and peaks ..


    Regards
    * An Audiophile is only as old as his latest Class D incarnation *

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    Re: Small power amp

    Quote Originally Posted by plonkywonki View Post
    Thanks for the tips and background.

    My math.
    3 m listening distance
    I'd aim at a 96dB max level including the amp headroom of 20dB. This leaves 76dB for normal listening less 6 for stereo setup less 3 for echoes & flutter and adding 3 dB as rounding -> 70dB desired.
    sensitivity 86
    headroom we know from above is 20

    I'd end up with 23W, round it up with 20% and we're almost at 30W required. That is surprisingly low (?),
    Bad math and assumptions ...



    Regards
    * An Audiophile is only as old as his latest Class D incarnation *

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    Re: Small power amp

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Bad math and assumptions ...
    correct me where wrong?

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    Re: Small power amp

    Quote Originally Posted by plonkywonki View Post
    Thanks for the tips and background.

    My math.
    3 m listening distance
    I'd aim at a 96dB max level including the amp headroom of 20dB. This leaves 76dB for normal listening less 6 for stereo setup less 3 for echoes & flutter and adding 3 dB as rounding -> 70dB desired.
    sensitivity 86
    headroom we know from above is 20

    I'd end up with 23W, round it up with 20% and we're almost at 30W required. That is surprisingly low (?),
    A 3M listening distance would make your 86db loud speakers 77db with 1 watt , ( 6 db drop for every doubling of distance ) ...

    Its actually a bit more complicated than this due to room gain , speakers toe in and insertion losses. typically when we have measured at 1 watt RMS , we have seen peaks exceeding 200 watts as measured on an oscilloscope with high crest factor recordings ..!


    Regards
    * An Audiophile is only as old as his latest Class D incarnation *

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    Re: Small power amp

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    A 3M listening distance would make your 86db loud speakers 77db with 1 watt , ( 6 db drop for every doubling of distance ) ...

    Its actually a bit more complicated than this due to room gain , speakers toe in and insertion losses. typically when we have measured at 1 watt RMS , we have seen peaks exceeding 200 watts as measured on an oscilloscope with high crest factor recordings ..!


    Regards
    Maybe I'm confused but it seems to me you have that backwards. Stereo speakers and room reflectivity reduce the power requirement by about 6 dB -- I'm splitting the combined stereo gain of 6 dB between the two speakers. Accordingly a sensitivity of 86 dB/1w/1m speaker becomes effectively 92 dB/1w/1m.

    Example: My listening distance is 3 m; average level is 72 dB; desired headroom is 20 dB; speaker sensitivity is 86 dB/1w/1m. Straight up the power required is (only) 36 watts. Assuming the effective sensitivity is 92 dB/1w/1m, the result its a mere 9 watts (per channel).

    ... Hello First Watt amps

    Granted if my average listening level were 85 bB -- which mine is certainly not, but it might be for a few people -- the corresponding power requirement jumps 'way up to 180 wpc.

    I suspect many people are beguiled by the notion of high power, (200+ wpc). They insist that the sound is significantly improved. Maybe, but they should consider that the SQ improvement might be due to other factors besides the raw poser.
    ~ Bill

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  23. #23
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    Re: Small power amp

    Yes your confused , your listening distance is 3M, your losing 6db for every doubling of distance from 1M , take out your db meter and DVM, start measuring..!

    Power output @72db ( what if you hit 75 db instead of 72db) then you can calculate what is required at 92db peaks with no fairytales ..!





    Regards
    * An Audiophile is only as old as his latest Class D incarnation *

  24. #24
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    Re: Small power amp

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Yes your confused , your listening distance is 3M, your losing 6db for every doubling of distance from 1M , take out your db meter and DVM, start measuring..!

    Power output @72db ( what if you hit 75 db instead of 72db) then you can calculate what is required at 92db peaks with no fairytales ..!


    Regards
    I've measured my volume many times with a dB meter from my listening position, 3 meters; my average volume is basically never higher than about 72 dB. Peaks are be higher of course which is why I allow 20 dB headroom.

    Have you actually looked at the Crown calculator? It allows you to enter your listening distance and, presumably, takes it into account with other parameters when it calculates you required power.
    ~ Bill

    Win10/Foobar2000 => Topping D90 DAC => Sonic Frontiers Line 1 SE+ preamp => VTV Purifi 1ET400A stereo amp with Sparkos SS3602 op amps => Zaph Audio ZRT speakers (DIY) + PSB Subsonic 5 subwoofer

  25. #25
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    Re: Small power amp

    Might as well link to the calculators....

    SPL Calculator
    Crown Amplifier Power Calculator
    Neko Audio
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    Re: Small power amp

    Quote Originally Posted by NekoAudio View Post
    Might as well link to the calculators....

    SPL Calculator
    Crown Amplifier Power Calculator
    Yes, thanks for that. The myhometheater calculator seems to suggest that I need only 18 wpc. That is, to achieve 75 dB average plus 20 dB headroom equals 95 dB.
    ~ Bill

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  27. #27

    Re: Small power amp

    These calculators are great tools but not every 25 watt amp (or 50 watt amp or 100 watt amp) reacts the same. If you want to spend a bit less money ($500 - $1000) a Belles A150 or Soloist amp are very nice pieces.

  28. #28
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    Re: Small power amp

    Dynamics will suffer alot from being under powered and amplifiers will be selected based on their clipping characteristics ..

    Try using a 30 watt subwoofer amp in your HT for eg ..




    Regards
    * An Audiophile is only as old as his latest Class D incarnation *

  29. #29
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    Re: Small power amp

    A while ago i have checked some ins and outs. they support my thoughs so far that a small amp would need to suffice.

    I recalculated based on the following assumptions:
    1) my iphone measures 70dBA max at 4m listening distance at my max preferred (note in a fairly small room). I assume, though sloppy 1:1 conversion to dB SPL (ref the crown power calculator)
    2) speaker ratings of 86dB (2,83V/1m) for 4ohm impedance is translated 83dB (1W/1m)
    3) assume overhead of 10dB in the amp should be sufficient

    Putting this in the Crown calculator (link above) brings 8W to the table. My perceived issues (i'm still no specialist) are the grip on the speakers and harmonic distortion with a smaller amplifier running at 80% volume vs a larger amplifier at 20% volume.

    I'd be very curious to see what 8W would do

  30. #30
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    Re: Small power amp

    I am very happy with the Enleum 23r.
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  31. #31
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    Re: Small power amp

    Quote Originally Posted by plonkywonki View Post

    However, since I look more and more for no nonsense designs, I am orienting towards a power amp with 1 analog input.

    How are you planning to control the output (volume) of this one-input amp? Power amps generally don't have volume controls and nearly all power amps have a single analogue input, although some offer twin sockets - balance and single ended (XLR and RCA)
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
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  32. #32
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    Re: Small power amp

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    Amp power is like money. The more you have then the better off you are.
    I equate the power in an amp, like I do for my cars. Its nice you know you have some power if you need it.
    2chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)

  33. #33
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    Re: Small power amp

    Agree on the amp comparison to cars. An eight cylinder engine is going to give you a rumble, an ease of acceleration and torque that you don't sense in a 6 or 4 cyl engine, even though the smaller engines do the job just fine.
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  34. #34
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    Re: Small power amp

    I like the First Watts suggested earlier. I’d say it would be possible. But, the above makes also sense, i.e. if it’s about muscle and I use from my current 60 watts only say the first 30%, I have plenty of power reserve.. did I then not already meet all the above suggested.

  35. #35
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    Re: Small power amp

    In my experience using 30 watts of a 60 watt amp isn't the same as 30 watts from a 300 watt amp.
    KEF Blade, Mc-611's, C49 rega jupiter, roon nucleus, revox tuner. Meridian dsp8000 se upgrade, meridian 218 zone controller VA Beethoven's, Hegel h360.

  36. #36
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    Re: Small power amp

    True, but in my experience a hegel amp @ volume control <16 results in a HP filter effect. Do you recognize this in the H360?

    I'm nicely surprised to find with my iphone dB meter (apparently it measures dBA but i don't know its + or - delta between reality) some clues.
    I put @unity gain uncorrelated pink noise into a digital mixer and found a linear correlation between the measured dBA and the mixer adjustments.
    So -20 delta in the mixer results in -20 delta in the measured dBA. Something seems to go right.

    Then I did the same with my current amp and recorded the dBA measured for all volume control increments. Outcome is a polynominal 3rd grade curve. I guess this is realistic in electronics.

    As next step I aim to find the correlation between dBA measured and the actual power output in W from the amp to finally find out what I need and how much extra power I have left. Any clues whether to start from the speaker sensitivity or maybe from the dBA measurement?

  37. #37
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    Re: Small power amp

    Yikes, I can't speak to any of that.

  38. #38
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    Re: Small power amp

    Quote Originally Posted by steve59 View Post
    Yikes, I can't speak to any of that.
    and for the h360 @ low volume setting?

  39. #39
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    Re: Small power amp

    The comparisons I can make personally include the Ayre Ax7e, AX5, and MX-R, a T+A Amp 8, a Lumin M1 (all in the "more watts" group) to the newest addition the Enleum 23. Granted, these have been in different systems over time but all of a reasonable - but far from top level - quality (ie Audio Note or PS Audio DACs, Aerial, Totem, or Amphion speakers, Lumin streamers etc).

    The Ayre amps were all fantastic as you would expect, they "had it all" imo, and got better as I moved up the line. But of them all, the one I would pick if I could never change again, would be the Enleum. Which is also the physically smallest, and lowest in watts. But most importantly, the most musical and neutral sounding to me. Yes, the big Ayre monoblocks were stunning and had incredible punch, speed, grip across the spectrum, neutrality, 3-dimensionality, and were gorgeous. But still, the little Enleum is an absolute joy to listen to.
    Main System

    Lumin X1 > Boulder 1161 > Scansonic MB3.5 B

    Headphones

    Home: HiFiMan Susvara > Schiit Lyr+
    Portable: Focal Radiance > AQ Dragonfly Cobalt / Chord Hugo 2

  40. #40
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    Re: Small power amp

    Quote Originally Posted by plonkywonki View Post
    and for the h360 @ low volume setting?
    If you want a really sweet "little amp" designed by Nelson Pass, there's always the Amp Camp Amps...you can build up a pair to run as bridged monoblocks for all of $654.

    15 Wpc...which I should add was about the same as the famous NAD 3120.





    These are really good-sounding amps when listening at nominal SPLs of 68-80 dB, which is how I listen to them. And, the build is fun to do, as well.

  41. #41
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    Re: Small power amp

    Enleum r23 fair amount above my budget. oh nice! Nelson Pass has some interesting designs! I love the suggestion to self-build somethig. My listening levels are somewhere between 40-70 depending on the time of the day.

  42. #42

    Re: Small power amp

    The amp camp kits sound most excellent and are very easy to build. Build them as mono's like Puma Cat did, they are sweet.

  43. #43
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    Re: Small power amp

    ambient noise in my neighborhood measured in my basement listening room is 60-70 db. between that and 40 years working in environments that are +100 db have left my low volume listening really insensitive, or you could very well be right about hegel but I haven't noticed.
    KEF Blade, Mc-611's, C49 rega jupiter, roon nucleus, revox tuner. Meridian dsp8000 se upgrade, meridian 218 zone controller VA Beethoven's, Hegel h360.

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