point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps

**aKnyght** · January 3, 2021, 11:52 AM

who are your favorite manufacturers of point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps?

these hand-built amps that do not use PCBs (printed circuit boards) are getting rarer than unicorns, so i though i would poll the community here to see if there were any makers that i have overlooked.

a few extant brands that i have followed over the years are:

yamamoto soundcraft
kondo - AN japan
air tight
audio tekne
thoress
thomas mayer
bandwidth audio

**TheOctopus** · January 3, 2021, 12:05 PM

Ahem... PrimaLuna. Kicks the sonic butt for the price. Seriously. My Dialogue Premium HP EL34 integrated brings me more listening joy than ARC REF250SE monos with the 40th anni REF preamp did back in the day. Imagine that.

**TheOctopus** · January 3, 2021, 12:08 PM

Sorry, I forgot that on this forum, if it doesn't cost as much as a luxury automobile, it isn't relevant...

**Mike** · January 3, 2021, 12:17 PM

I like my Yamamoto. That being said, it isn’t as quiet as I would like.

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**Mikado463** · January 3, 2021, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by TheOctopus

Ahem... PrimaLuna. Kicks the sonic butt for the price. Seriously. My Dialogue Premium HP EL34 integrated brings me more listening joy than ARC REF250SE monos with the 40th anni REF preamp did back in the day. Imagine that.

I know of several others that would agree...........

**Randy Myers** · January 3, 2021, 12:41 PM

Audio Mirror SET amplifiers using the "Mig" tubes were pretty outstanding!

**aKnyght** · January 3, 2021, 12:43 PM

absolutely cannot believe i forgot shindo laboratory ...pretty much the progenitor and poster child for this category

**Mike** · January 3, 2021, 12:46 PM

Some VAC equipment is P2P. Viva is all P2P.

Triode corp of Japan is another.

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**aKnyght** · January 3, 2021, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by TheOctopus

Ahem... PrimaLuna. Kicks the sonic butt for the price. Seriously. My Dialogue Premium HP EL34 integrated brings me more listening joy than ARC REF250SE monos with the 40th anni REF preamp did back in the day. Imagine that.

great gear for sure! ...but, they make significant use of PCBs in addition to point-to-point wiring. so, only from from a purist's point of view i am going to keep them off my list.

**TheOctopus** · January 3, 2021, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by aKnyght

great gear for sure! ...but, they make significant use of PCBs in addition to point-to-point wiring. so, only from from a purist's point of view i am going to keep them off my list.

It is minimal. For things like let's not make the user learn how to use a Fluke multimeter and stick screwdrivers into pots for biasing of tubes... Or when a tube goes bad, it will light up an LED saying I am busted... Instead of taking out half the amp circuitry with a spark show like can happen with others?

By the way, I have also enjoyed Shindo. A Cortese SET F2a and Monbrison combo with Tannoy Canterbury SE's. As much as I liked Shindo, the PrimaLuna is less limiting and sounds awfully close to all that Shindo magic. With the PrimaLuna one can use anything from EL34 to KT150 with a flick of a switch, so it is truly a swiss army knife of an amp. 30w of SET to over 100w of tube power.

Do AudioNote/Kondo amps sound significantly better over a PrimaLuna? I sure hope they do but I really don't care LOL... and I doubt a blind listening test would reveal anything even remotely resembling over $100k worth of a difference. But we all know that.

**aKnyght** · January 3, 2021, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

I like my Yamamoto. That being said, it isn’t as quiet as I would like.

somewhat goes with the territory i suppose -- certainly, higher levels of measured noise than with similar quality SS amplification. question is whether or not it is audible? perhaps more so with ultra sensitive speakers, 105+ dB sensitivity?

also, i have heard you mention the same with respect to air tight -- although others have reported them being dead quiet ...so, maybe its a system thing?

**puroagave** · January 3, 2021, 01:13 PM

Cary Audio

Jadis...

[IMG]

[/IMG]

**Randy Myers** · January 3, 2021, 01:23 PM

Now that is some nice looking clean wiring!

**TheOctopus** · January 3, 2021, 01:50 PM

Jadis is good stuff but comes at a price.

Conrad Johnson, as far as I can remember had an interesting approach of using as big of a PCB as possible for all the parts layout.

**CPP** · January 3, 2021, 03:37 PM

Quicksilver Audio all P2P
A lot of Bob Latino's amps are P2P
Leben P2P

**Randy Myers** · January 3, 2021, 06:25 PM

With current tech I really don't see an issue with PCB's being used. They perform the same functions as hand running wires, but there is a case to be made that these in many ways can be more reliable. Less chances of a cold solder (I have seen the part pucker machines in action). I do not think there is a man or woman alive who are as accurate, precise and can make a more solid connection. Even the software used in designing and feeding the part pickers are more accurate.

This is one area where I do believe that an argument can be made that the new technologies and methods might actually be better.

**Bruce** · January 3, 2021, 06:52 PM

Should add MacTone

Bruce

**aKnyght** · January 3, 2021, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

With current tech I really don't see an issue with PCB's being used. They perform the same functions as hand running wires, but there is a case to be made that these in many ways can be more reliable. Less chances of a cold solder (I have seen the part pucker machines in action). I do not think there is a man or woman alive who are as accurate, precise and can make a more solid connection. Even the software used in designing and feeding the part pickers are more accurate.

This is one area where I do believe that an argument can be made that the new technologies and methods might actually be better.

certainly a 100% valid point -- and i don't see an issue either.

however, the counter argument that has been made is that P2P amps can be maintained / repaired as for long as there are qualified technicians on the planet ...and individual component parts such as caps, resistors, etc. are readily available. on the other hand, try getting anyone to repair a PCB anything without replacing a complete board whose future availability from the original manufacturer is questionable at best -- which at some future point leaves dumpster diving as the only viable source of replacement boards.

that being said, my purpose here is to simply compile a list of P2P amp manufacturers for anyone interested in this artisanal niche of the market.

**TheOctopus** · January 3, 2021, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by aKnyght

certainly a 100% valid point -- and i don't see an issue either.

however, the counter argument that has been made is that P2P amps can be maintained / repaired as for long as there are qualified technicians on the planet ...and individual component parts such as caps, resistors, etc. are readily available. on the other hand, try getting anyone to repair a PCB anything without replacing a complete board whose future availability from the original manufacturer is questionable at best -- which at some future point leaves dumpster diving as the only viable source of replacement boards.

that being said, my purpose here is to simply compile a list of P2P amp manufacturers for anyone interested in this artisanal niche of the market.

The trace conductors, if they go bad, can be fixed. I used to do just that back in my electronic tech days. Solder a jumper after scraping the trace. Other components are obviously removable from the PCB. Now, some of SMT (surface mount technology) chips, resistors, etc can be a real pain and so the whole board may need swapping out. In any case, obviously the old school, P2P wiring is simpler to repair but there is a limit to what can be achieved in terms of features and functions with such. Tube sockets should never reside on the PCB but some manufacturers do exactly that.... heat is not kind on that scheme over time.

**Bruce** · January 3, 2021, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by aKnyght

certainly a 100% valid point -- and i don't see an issue either.

however, the counter argument that has been made is that P2P amps can be maintained / repaired as for long as there are qualified technicians on the planet ...and individual component parts such as caps, resistors, etc. are readily available. on the other hand, try getting anyone to repair a PCB anything without replacing a complete board whose future availability from the original manufacturer is questionable at best -- which at some future point leaves dumpster diving as the only viable source of replacement boards.

Some valid comments here--I bet I'm not the only one posting who has not run into situations as mentioned --

Potted line and phono stages/Potted Power supply filter blocks--Mfg no longer in business and no way of replacing nor gaining access to the components.

Take look inside any early Levinson PreAmps and see the butchers jobs some cowboys have resorted to get the things going after the Modules failed.

Wilson Xovers are/were potted but not such a priority.

Case in point I bought an Infinity DSP Amp from Arnie Nudell when they first came out--12 months later it died --or rather big Black potted box inside did and they no longer had any nor made anymore.

I contributed to Landfill.

Bruce

**Elztalbiker** · January 4, 2021, 04:46 AM

Jadis is p t p

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**Randy Myers** · January 4, 2021, 09:54 AM

Another argument is that P2P is more susceptible to wiring issues. Far more chance of a bad solder, wire crossing, etc., etc. With few exceptions the chances of a PCB going bad is far less liking than something that was hand wired. Please do not think that I am against P2P, I am just pointing out the other side of the issue. I think both sides have valid points but reliability definitely falls on the PCB side.

**Shadowfax** · January 4, 2021, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by TheOctopus

Sorry, I forgot that on this forum, if it doesn't cost as much as a luxury automobile, it isn't relevant...

I will take that personally, and it really is an uncalled for comment

**TheOctopus** · January 4, 2021, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

I will take that personally, and it really is an uncalled for comment

Relax Brian. It wasn't directed at anyone specific but let's not pretend this forum has that "budget audio" feel to it... It is what it is...

**Mike** · January 4, 2021, 10:59 AM

Serge, cool your jets please. My inbox is full of complaints.

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**TheOctopus** · January 4, 2021, 11:02 AM

Interesting... I never complained once about anyone. Very trendy but I'll pass...

**vortrex** · January 4, 2021, 11:06 AM

Miyajima is all ptp wired.

**aKnyght** · January 4, 2021, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by vortrex

Miyajima is all ptp wired.

thanks! i was certainly aware of their cartridges but had NO idea they made amps and pre-amps

**Frazeur1** · January 9, 2021, 02:02 PM

I have owned Croft Acoustics integrated/amp/preamps before they got popular with the Stereophile crowd. I find them to be very good, certainly very spartan, and won’t appeal to many. And measurements be damned, I love them. Even paying a bit of extra for imported goods, they just sound right to me. And of course, not chock full of any “audiophile approved” parts, and point to point wiring, only circuit board is for the timer circuit. Good enough for me.

**stereogeek** · January 16, 2021, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by TheOctopus

Ahem... PrimaLuna. Kicks the sonic butt for the price. Seriously. My Dialogue Premium HP EL34 integrated brings me more listening joy than ARC REF250SE monos with the 40th anni REF preamp did back in the day. Imagine that.

My buddy does not care for Audio Research and Conrad Johnson but he really likes Prima Luna. He says it is one of the best sounding amps he has heard.

**TheOctopus** · January 16, 2021, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by stereogeek

My buddy does not care for Audio Research and Conrad Johnson but he really likes Prima Luna. He says it is one of the best sounding amps he has heard.

It is all personal preference, system synergy and even how we hear. I guess my inner music lover preferred the EL34 tubes and the PrimaLuna design more. Price wise, there is a significant difference but the inner music lover is blind to shiny boxes and cares not what the price tag is... (but that can go either way...

)

**4N6** · January 21, 2021, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by TheOctopus

Ahem... PrimaLuna. Kicks the sonic butt for the price. Seriously. My Dialogue Premium HP EL34 integrated brings me more listening joy than ARC REF250SE monos with the 40th anni REF preamp did back in the day. Imagine that.

Another PrimaLuna fan here. Amazing sound quality, musicality, reliability and value, and loads of fun with tube rolling. Have used EL34's, KT120's and KT150's with my amps, but my favorite is the 7581a.

**Jim Smith** · January 21, 2021, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by CPP

Quicksilver Audio all P2P
A lot of Bob Latino's amps are P2P
Leben P2P

I have known Mike Sanders (Quicksilver Audio) since I replaced him as National Sales Manager at Magnepan.

He wanted to start up his company way back then, and he did.

I have two pairs of his monoblock amps.

Are they the best tube amps that I have heard?

No, but from a musical involvement standpoint, they are extraordinary values when compared to amps that cost more than 10 times as much...

Oh, and they are super reliable...

**RDSChicago** · January 21, 2021, 06:14 PM

I had a pair of Quicksilver KT150 mono blocks a few years ago and sold them to Randy. One of my audio regrets was parting with them.

**atmasphere** · Yesterday, 04:35 PM

We've been doing point to point wiring on all of our amps since the early 1990s.

Click on the play button to see one of our amps wired
Atma-Sphere Music Systems

**aKnyght** · Yesterday, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by atmasphere

We've been doing point to point wiring on all of our amps since the early 1990s.

Click on the play button to see one of our amps wired
Atma-Sphere Music Systems

fantastic video -- just love the stop-motion filming -- brilliant!

btw: as a fan of the 6c33c tube, glad to see the novacron is back

**mulveling** · Yesterday, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

Another argument is that P2P is more susceptible to wiring issues. Far more chance of a bad solder, wire crossing, etc., etc. With few exceptions the chances of a PCB going bad is far less liking than something that was hand wired. Please do not think that I am against P2P, I am just pointing out the other side of the issue. I think both sides have valid points but reliability definitely falls on the PCB side.

But on the flip side, if a PCB takes any significant damage, the repair can be a more costly and difficult - and that PCB may not be available anymore at some point.

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