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January 3, 2021, 11:52 AM #1
point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
who are your favorite manufacturers of point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps?
these hand-built amps that do not use PCBs (printed circuit boards) are getting rarer than unicorns, so i though i would poll the community here to see if there were any makers that i have overlooked.
a few extant brands that i have followed over the years are:
yamamoto soundcraft
kondo - AN japan
air tight
audio tekne
thoress
thomas mayer
bandwidth audiokanjiroba yak + roon rock > t+a dac8 dsd > almarro a318b ◊ air tight atm-300r > viking acoustics berlin r mk2
core audio designs plyKraft 3L | hifi racks ltd podium t5-iii | alp-tone audio analog cables
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January 3, 2021, 12:05 PM #2
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
Ahem... PrimaLuna. Kicks the sonic butt for the price. Seriously. My Dialogue Premium HP EL34 integrated brings me more listening joy than ARC REF250SE monos with the 40th anni REF preamp did back in the day. Imagine that.
Serge
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January 3, 2021, 12:08 PM #3
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
Sorry, I forgot that on this forum, if it doesn't cost as much as a luxury automobile, it isn't relevant...
Serge
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January 3, 2021, 12:17 PM #4
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
I like my Yamamoto. That being said, it isn’t as quiet as I would like.
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January 3, 2021, 12:36 PM #5
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January 3, 2021, 12:41 PM #6
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
Audio Mirror SET amplifiers using the "Mig" tubes were pretty outstanding!
Neil degrasse Tyson - "A great challenge of life: Knowing enough to think you are right, but not knowing enough to know you are wrong."
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"You are entitled to your opinions but you are not entitled to your own facts"
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January 3, 2021, 12:43 PM #7
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
absolutely cannot believe i forgot shindo laboratory ...pretty much the progenitor and poster child for this category
kanjiroba yak + roon rock > t+a dac8 dsd > almarro a318b ◊ air tight atm-300r > viking acoustics berlin r mk2
core audio designs plyKraft 3L | hifi racks ltd podium t5-iii | alp-tone audio analog cables
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January 3, 2021, 12:46 PM #8
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
Some VAC equipment is P2P. Viva is all P2P.
Triode corp of Japan is another.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProMy Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, EMM Labs, Esoteric, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
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January 3, 2021, 12:48 PM #9
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
kanjiroba yak + roon rock > t+a dac8 dsd > almarro a318b ◊ air tight atm-300r > viking acoustics berlin r mk2
core audio designs plyKraft 3L | hifi racks ltd podium t5-iii | alp-tone audio analog cables
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January 3, 2021, 01:06 PM #10
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
It is minimal. For things like let's not make the user learn how to use a Fluke multimeter and stick screwdrivers into pots for biasing of tubes... Or when a tube goes bad, it will light up an LED saying I am busted... Instead of taking out half the amp circuitry with a spark show like can happen with others?
By the way, I have also enjoyed Shindo. A Cortese SET F2a and Monbrison combo with Tannoy Canterbury SE's. As much as I liked Shindo, the PrimaLuna is less limiting and sounds awfully close to all that Shindo magic. With the PrimaLuna one can use anything from EL34 to KT150 with a flick of a switch, so it is truly a swiss army knife of an amp. 30w of SET to over 100w of tube power.
Do AudioNote/Kondo amps sound significantly better over a PrimaLuna? I sure hope they do but I really don't care LOL... and I doubt a blind listening test would reveal anything even remotely resembling over $100k worth of a difference. But we all know that.
Serge
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January 3, 2021, 01:06 PM #11
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
somewhat goes with the territory i suppose -- certainly, higher levels of measured noise than with similar quality SS amplification. question is whether or not it is audible? perhaps more so with ultra sensitive speakers, 105+ dB sensitivity?
also, i have heard you mention the same with respect to air tight -- although others have reported them being dead quiet ...so, maybe its a system thing?kanjiroba yak + roon rock > t+a dac8 dsd > almarro a318b ◊ air tight atm-300r > viking acoustics berlin r mk2
core audio designs plyKraft 3L | hifi racks ltd podium t5-iii | alp-tone audio analog cables
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January 3, 2021, 01:13 PM #12
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January 3, 2021, 01:23 PM #13
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
Now that is some nice looking clean wiring!
Neil degrasse Tyson - "A great challenge of life: Knowing enough to think you are right, but not knowing enough to know you are wrong."
Hattor "The Big", Tube Active Stage | T+A DAC 8 DSD | McIntosh MC754, MC7100 v2 | Falcon Northwest PC Server | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Hexmat Yellowbird | Technics SL1500C | Audio Technica VM740ML | MOON by SimAudio NEO 430HA, NEO 310LP, 110LP v2 | Magnepan .7's | Rythmik L12 (2) | Wyred 4 Sound Recovery | Astell & Kern SE200 | Abyss Diana Phi | AudioQuest Niagara 1000
"You are entitled to your opinions but you are not entitled to your own facts"
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January 3, 2021, 01:50 PM #14
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
Jadis is good stuff but comes at a price.
Conrad Johnson, as far as I can remember had an interesting approach of using as big of a PCB as possible for all the parts layout.
Serge
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January 3, 2021, 03:37 PM #15
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
Quicksilver Audio all P2P
A lot of Bob Latino's amps are P2P
Leben P2PPassXa-30.5, W4S STP, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, HD650, HD800s, Dan Clark 1.1, OPPO 203, 105.
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January 3, 2021, 06:25 PM #16
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
With current tech I really don't see an issue with PCB's being used. They perform the same functions as hand running wires, but there is a case to be made that these in many ways can be more reliable. Less chances of a cold solder (I have seen the part pucker machines in action). I do not think there is a man or woman alive who are as accurate, precise and can make a more solid connection. Even the software used in designing and feeding the part pickers are more accurate.
This is one area where I do believe that an argument can be made that the new technologies and methods might actually be better.Neil degrasse Tyson - "A great challenge of life: Knowing enough to think you are right, but not knowing enough to know you are wrong."
Hattor "The Big", Tube Active Stage | T+A DAC 8 DSD | McIntosh MC754, MC7100 v2 | Falcon Northwest PC Server | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Hexmat Yellowbird | Technics SL1500C | Audio Technica VM740ML | MOON by SimAudio NEO 430HA, NEO 310LP, 110LP v2 | Magnepan .7's | Rythmik L12 (2) | Wyred 4 Sound Recovery | Astell & Kern SE200 | Abyss Diana Phi | AudioQuest Niagara 1000
"You are entitled to your opinions but you are not entitled to your own facts"
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January 3, 2021, 06:52 PM #17
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Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
Should add MacTone
Bruce
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January 3, 2021, 09:28 PM #18
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
certainly a 100% valid point -- and i don't see an issue either.
however, the counter argument that has been made is that P2P amps can be maintained / repaired as for long as there are qualified technicians on the planet ...and individual component parts such as caps, resistors, etc. are readily available. on the other hand, try getting anyone to repair a PCB anything without replacing a complete board whose future availability from the original manufacturer is questionable at best -- which at some future point leaves dumpster diving as the only viable source of replacement boards.
that being said, my purpose here is to simply compile a list of P2P amp manufacturers for anyone interested in this artisanal niche of the market.
kanjiroba yak + roon rock > t+a dac8 dsd > almarro a318b ◊ air tight atm-300r > viking acoustics berlin r mk2
core audio designs plyKraft 3L | hifi racks ltd podium t5-iii | alp-tone audio analog cables
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January 3, 2021, 09:44 PM #19
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
The trace conductors, if they go bad, can be fixed. I used to do just that back in my electronic tech days. Solder a jumper after scraping the trace. Other components are obviously removable from the PCB. Now, some of SMT (surface mount technology) chips, resistors, etc can be a real pain and so the whole board may need swapping out. In any case, obviously the old school, P2P wiring is simpler to repair but there is a limit to what can be achieved in terms of features and functions with such. Tube sockets should never reside on the PCB but some manufacturers do exactly that.... heat is not kind on that scheme over time.
Serge
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January 3, 2021, 10:19 PM #20
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Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
Some valid comments here--I bet I'm not the only one posting who has not run into situations as mentioned --
Potted line and phono stages/Potted Power supply filter blocks--Mfg no longer in business and no way of replacing nor gaining access to the components.
Take look inside any early Levinson PreAmps and see the butchers jobs some cowboys have resorted to get the things going after the Modules failed.
Wilson Xovers are/were potted but not such a priority.
Case in point I bought an Infinity DSP Amp from Arnie Nudell when they first came out--12 months later it died --or rather big Black potted box inside did and they no longer had any nor made anymore.
I contributed to Landfill.
Bruce
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January 4, 2021, 04:46 AM #21
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
Jadis is p t p
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January 4, 2021, 09:54 AM #22
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
Another argument is that P2P is more susceptible to wiring issues. Far more chance of a bad solder, wire crossing, etc., etc. With few exceptions the chances of a PCB going bad is far less liking than something that was hand wired. Please do not think that I am against P2P, I am just pointing out the other side of the issue. I think both sides have valid points but reliability definitely falls on the PCB side.
Neil degrasse Tyson - "A great challenge of life: Knowing enough to think you are right, but not knowing enough to know you are wrong."
Hattor "The Big", Tube Active Stage | T+A DAC 8 DSD | McIntosh MC754, MC7100 v2 | Falcon Northwest PC Server | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Hexmat Yellowbird | Technics SL1500C | Audio Technica VM740ML | MOON by SimAudio NEO 430HA, NEO 310LP, 110LP v2 | Magnepan .7's | Rythmik L12 (2) | Wyred 4 Sound Recovery | Astell & Kern SE200 | Abyss Diana Phi | AudioQuest Niagara 1000
"You are entitled to your opinions but you are not entitled to your own facts"
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January 4, 2021, 10:41 AM #23
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
-----------------
Brian
Main System - Rotel 1072 CDP / Rega P3 > Luxman 505UX Mark II > Fyne Audio F502SPs > Synergistic Cables
Secondary - OPPO 93 > VAC CLA 1 MKII Pre > Odyssey Stratos > Dynaudio Audience 82s > Tara Labs Cables
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January 4, 2021, 10:57 AM #24
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January 4, 2021, 10:59 AM #25
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
Serge, cool your jets please. My inbox is full of complaints.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProMy Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, EMM Labs, Esoteric, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
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January 4, 2021, 11:02 AM #26
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
Interesting... I never complained once about anyone. Very trendy but I'll pass...
Serge
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January 4, 2021, 11:06 AM #27
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Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
Miyajima is all ptp wired.
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January 4, 2021, 11:23 AM #28
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
kanjiroba yak + roon rock > t+a dac8 dsd > almarro a318b ◊ air tight atm-300r > viking acoustics berlin r mk2
core audio designs plyKraft 3L | hifi racks ltd podium t5-iii | alp-tone audio analog cables
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January 9, 2021, 02:02 PM #29
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
I have owned Croft Acoustics integrated/amp/preamps before they got popular with the Stereophile crowd. I find them to be very good, certainly very spartan, and won’t appeal to many. And measurements be damned, I love them. Even paying a bit of extra for imported goods, they just sound right to me. And of course, not chock full of any “audiophile approved” parts, and point to point wiring, only circuit board is for the timer circuit. Good enough for me.
Holbo TT, Innuos Zen, LinnenberG Telemann Dac/pre, Allegro Monos, Maestro SE/Senn. HD660S, Duevel Venus
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January 16, 2021, 08:59 AM #30
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January 16, 2021, 01:17 PM #31
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
It is all personal preference, system synergy and even how we hear. I guess my inner music lover preferred the EL34 tubes and the PrimaLuna design more. Price wise, there is a significant difference but the inner music lover is blind to shiny boxes and cares not what the price tag is... (but that can go either way...
)
Serge
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January 21, 2021, 01:06 PM #32
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
Kevin
Home: VPI Aries 3/Lyra Skala/RSA XR10B, PS Audio DS DAC (networked using Roon) > PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium preamp and HP mono amps > Sonus Faber Elipsa SE's. PS Audio P5 and P10. Transparent Audio, Cardas and Audioquest cables.
Work: Windows Laptop (Roon) > W4S 2v2SE LE > PrimaLuna Dialogue HP integrated > Sonus Faber Guarneri Memento's and Sennheiser HD800S headphones. Shunyata Hydra. Cardas cables.
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January 21, 2021, 03:20 PM #33
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
I have known Mike Sanders (Quicksilver Audio) since I replaced him as National Sales Manager at Magnepan.
He wanted to start up his company way back then, and he did.
I have two pairs of his monoblock amps.
Are they the best tube amps that I have heard?
No, but from a musical involvement standpoint, they are extraordinary values when compared to amps that cost more than 10 times as much...
Oh, and they are super reliable...Small Green Computer; gigaFoil 4 Ethernet w/ Keces PS-3; Sonore ultraRendu; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; Shunyata Alpha & Sigma USBs; AudioQuest Diamond USB 5M: ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; AQ Diamond AES - 3M; AQ Diamond Ethernet - 1.5M; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; PecanPi USB dac; Ayre Codex dac - updated; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amp; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamp, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Wyred 4 Sound STP-750E Mk II amp w/Kimber TCX wiring & WBT binding posts; Quicksilver Mid Mono amps w/Gold Lion KT77s, Joseph Audio Perspective 2 Graphenes; Fyne Audio 703s; Symposium Svelte Plus & Ultra Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata Denali 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.
www.getbettersound.com
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January 21, 2021, 06:14 PM #34
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Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
I had a pair of Quicksilver KT150 mono blocks a few years ago and sold them to Randy. One of my audio regrets was parting with them.
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March 5, 2021, 04:35 PM #35
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
We've been doing point to point wiring on all of our amps since the early 1990s.
Click on the play button to see one of our amps wired
Atma-Sphere Music Systems
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March 5, 2021, 05:06 PM #36
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
kanjiroba yak + roon rock > t+a dac8 dsd > almarro a318b ◊ air tight atm-300r > viking acoustics berlin r mk2
core audio designs plyKraft 3L | hifi racks ltd podium t5-iii | alp-tone audio analog cables
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March 5, 2021, 08:51 PM #37
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Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
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March 6, 2021, 09:15 AM #38
Re: point-to-point, hand-wired tube amps
Tube sockets should never reside on the PCB but some manufacturers do exactly that.... heat is not kind on that scheme over time.
But on the flip side, if a PCB takes any significant damage, the repair can be a more costly and difficult - and that PCB may not be available anymore at some point.
I've had quite a few more P2P amps that had broken solder, burnt wiring, and even wiring mistakes.Dan Santoni
Authorized service for (in no particular order) - Copland, Cary, Unison Research, Allnic, Modwright, Ayon, Hegel, Belles, Aesthetix, Coincident, Zesto and a whole bunch more
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www.blackdoghifi.com
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AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.
We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!
Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
Sincerely,
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Doesn't get much better than that. Job well done. DIY can be very rewarding (sometimes not). Plus you learn a lot and have fun doing it.
Chops' Current System Pics ....