Thread: New tube amp

Rather than "goop up" the other thread about tube amps, I decided to start this thread to talk about my new tube amp. I have been thinking about getting another tube amp for quite a while. I really wanted a Luxman MQ-88uC but they are 6 months or so away from delivery. I only need about 15wpc, so there are quite a few choices available. I decided to try a Carver Black Magic 25 mostly based on the return policy and it uses EL34's. Well, the Carver is still in the system and I don't see any reason to take it out. How the heck a little 20lb tube amp is doing what it is doing is almost laughable. The XA25 is a very respected amp and gets rave reviews but can you say "system dependent?" In my system I like the Carver much more and it's not even close.

Thanks for the kind words. I fully expected this amp to have a wonderful midrange, floppy bass and a so so top end. However, the pace and drive this tiny amp can do defies logic. The midrange is 100% EL34, smooth, flowing and with a huge 3d sound stage. The highs are extended and detailed but smooth as heck. Sometimes cymbals can sound like they are made of steel, they can have that steely sound. These cymbals sound like copper (like they should), with a decay that I really didn't notice before . It's just musical. Now I know why the speaker builder recommends EL34 amps. Sorry for sounding like fruit cake but this thing is crazy good and it shouldn't be.

I don't know if this amp is one of the cool running ones or not. After the storms pass I will fire it back up and check. It has a 5 year warranty on the tubes so I believe they are running them real easy. The bias is around 100ma total which, I think, is 25ma per tube. EL34 data says 35ma is "cold" while around 55ma is considered "hot." This amp is one of the biggest hi-fi surprises I have ever had.

The tubes are very hot so it's not one of the designs that you can hold your hand on them.

Yes, the ASR review of the Carver Crimson 275 and Raven 250 are horrible. As memory serves me they claim the 275 (75wpc amp) only made somewhere around 8 watts or something at the frequency extremes and the output transformers were tiny and only rated for 15wpc. I read these reviews the night after I ordered my amp and I called Carver the next day. They explained that their amps are designed to be run into a speaker load and not a resister load. They told me I could cancel my order if I wanted to, right there on the spot. Or try it and have 30 days to send it back. The little Black Magic 25 has great dynamics, great bass slam and works great with my Volti's. My XA25 will be for sale soon. So, the question remains......trust your ears or measurements?

I have a pair of the original Volti Razz. Which don't test very well but sound like music, they are very dynamic. Thanks to you guys for the positive posts.

All good points. Kevin from VAC posted on another thread regarding measurements and what we hear (or do not hear). BTW, most speakers have much more distortion than any amp I have seen and the frequency response curves are way worse so I dont worry much about an amplifiers distortion numbers. Plus, amp to speaker matching is most important. I think that's where I kind of screwed up, I expected the XA25 to match well and it was a pretty good match but pretty good wasn't good enough. The Carver is still in the system and it's not coming out unless it's for a more expensive/better lower powered tube amp. Are there better built and cheaper amps than the Carver out there? I don't know, I didn't look much. I saw it and I bought it.

I was all ready to trade in my XA25 for a Luxman MQ-88cU amp to Mike. A very fair offer was made but once I listened to my system again last night I now have cold feet. I am still in some kind of shock/denial that this little Carver amp can do what it is doing. It's a friggen Carver, it's nothing but mid fi stuff, is what my buddy says. It goes back to system matching 101, I failed the 1st time around but passed this time. It was a little lean in the bass at first so I changed the resistors to one step higher on the tweeter and midrange horn to get the balance right. Now that the amp is breaking in (and/or the listener) it has a bit more bass so I might have to change them back. It makes you wonder why every speaker manufacturer doesnt have this feature. I am rambling so time to go, Cheers!

My buddy came over yesterday, bought the XA25 and listened to my new amp. He can't believe this little 20lb amp completely controls the bass on my speakers and sounds so darn near perfect everywhere else. It will play to extremely high volumes without the soundstage collapsing, the bass getting floppy or the vocals falling apart. We talked about me buying a "better" (more expensive) amp just to see, but we both agreed, why? Cheers to all and wonders never cease.

I know you guys are probably tired of hearing it and/or believe I have have completely lost my friggin mind but I have never expected so little from a component and then have it completely blow my mind like this amp has. So, I have to ask this question. Do better parts ( capacitors, resistors ) always sound better?

Originally Posted by stereogeek

Yes, the ASR review of the Carver Crimson 275 and Raven 250 are horrible. As memory serves me they claim the 275 (75wpc amp) only made somewhere around 8 watts or something at the frequency extremes and the output transformers were tiny and only rated for 15wpc. I read these reviews the night after I ordered my amp and I called Carver the next day. They explained that their amps are designed to be run into a speaker load and not a resister load. They told me I could cancel my order if I wanted to, right there on the spot. Or try it and have 30 days to send it back. The little Black Magic 25 has great dynamics, great bass slam and works great with my Volti's. My XA25 will be for sale soon. So, the question remains......trust your ears or measurements?

I've never understood the logic of ASR as a whole. "It sounds good but doesn't measure good". Huh? Not meant at anyone when I say this as I say it in general - but who cares how it measures so long as it sounds good?

What's the alternative? When I have my friends over I say "I know it sounds crappy, but boy does it measure good!"

I only care what my EARS think, not what some piece of equipment says.

As an example they said the Neve headphone amp measured so poor to as tell people to not buy it. Really? I've owned or listened to over 50 different headphone amps the the Neve headphone amp is sensational (and what I currently own/use).

Again, my point is aimed at the whole measurement thing in general, NOT at any one person.

PS. To the OP - bravo!

it's always exciting when you find a piece of gear that sounds so much better than you think it "should" sound. I've always enjoyed over the decades taking the road less traveled with gear and cables and have found that to be so much more rewarding than all the common stuff.

I'm really happy for you that you are loving that amp!

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

I've never understood the logic of ASR as a whole. "It sounds good but doesn't measure good". Huh? Not meant at anyone when I say this as I say it in general - but who cares how it measures so long as it sounds good?

What's the alternative? When I have my friends over I say "I know it sounds crappy, but boy does it measure good!"

I only care what my EARS think, not what some piece of equipment says.

As an example they said the Neve headphone amp measured so poor to as tell people to not buy it. Really? I've owned or listened to over 50 different headphone amps the the Neve headphone amp is sensational (and what I currently own/use).

Again, my point is aimed at the whole measurement thing in general, NOT at any one person.

I think most of us need validation when we purchase a new piece. A good review with great measurements goes a long way with many folks. I really dont care how stuff measures, I listen and typically make a decision in a matter of minutes. The trick to do this? Don't listen for bass, midrange and treble, is it musical?

Originally Posted by W9TR

Congrats on your new amp!

I have found a negative correlation between my personal sonic satisfaction and ASR measurements. The best sounding gear I have measures the worst. This is really useful as a means to stay away from gear I know will sound like a dead rat being scraped across a chalkboard.

Thanks for the kind words bud.

On another note.....I notice a bunch of Carver amps for sale after the ASR reviews on the Carver 275 and 250 amps. I assume the guys were happy with the amps before the reviews and after the reviews they decided they suck?

Originally Posted by Mike

Great discussion. I’m wondering if the ASR crowd microwaves their tenderloin filet because it cooks faster?

I agree.

I am a pretty avid cook. I wonder if ASR would tell me even though wifey and I think my cooking tastes good, it actually doesn't because it measures the same temperature as what others cook?

Pass makes great gear but in my system the EL34 amp reigns king. I am 100% certain the Pass measures a whole lot better than the Carver. The Carver is so much better ( again, in my system ) there was a small group of people gathered in my front yard holding candles. To be fair, Greg prefers EL34 amps with his speakers. BTW, I was a little hesitant to post this Carver amplifier experience for fear of a public flogging...lol.

Originally Posted by stereogeek

Pass makes great gear but in my system the EL34 amp reigns king. I am 100% certain the Pass measures a whole lot better than the Carver. The Carver is so much better ( again, in my system ) there was a small group of people gathered in my front yard holding candles. To be fair, Greg prefers EL34 amps with his speakers. BTW, I was a little hesitant to post this Carver amplifier experience for fear of a public flogging...lol.

I LOVE the sound of a good EL34 amp. So far the best amp I've ever had was a modified (upgraded the caps) E.A.R. 834 EL34 push pull integrated. Only 30 watts or so but sounded SO alive and sounded like a million watts. It was absolutely fantastic. I ran a Meridian 508.24 CD player with it.

My very first audiophile cd player was the original Meridian 508. That piece proved to me how a single box player can compete with the world of separates. That thing was smooth as heck with not a trace digital glare, it could be a bit too polite at times though.

It is widely thought that more expensive parts give you better sound. What if your system is really laid back and it needs a bit more highs? A lot of times cheaper parts will not sound as smooth as more expensive ones and have more highs so in this instance cheaper parts would be a better match for the system. This is why system matching is very important. For example....a bright speaker should be matched with a smooth (dark) amplifier. Agree?

Keeping with the "synergy" theme.....How can two amplifiers from different companies sound completely different if the specs are the same? Synergy is not the answer here.

Originally Posted by stereogeek

Keeping with the "synergy" theme.....How can two amplifiers from different companies sound completely different if the specs are the same? Synergy is not the answer here.

BINGO! My ears are the only measuring instruments that I trust. With that said, I will look at certain numbers. Generally,

- Higher wattage amps that double output into 4 ohms from their 8-ohm spec usually work well driving my Maggies.

- Higher dynamic range DAC's tend to sound good to me.

- A sealed subwoofer with the same specs as a ported one sounds very different to me.

My process of watching or reading reviews, then seeing if some key numbers match with my experience are good and helpful first steps, but they mean ZERO to me if the item being auditioned doesn't pass the hearing test. I should add that personal experience and reputation of both the brand and the dealer are important considerations to me when deciding what to audition.

Not trying to bash ASR, and I know some people find them useful. But out of curiosity, I have looked at a few of my favorite pieces of equipment over the years. Well, guess what - the stuff that sounds best to me often scores low on ASR's measurements. So my bottom line is that measurements can be useful, but they can't even begin to predict exactly how something will sound in my system and my room. Thank God that I have two built-in instruments that can do exactly that, and very reliably.

oops.

Responding to meps' post #36 above.....Yes, really. I will explain one experience I had. At one point in time I had a PS Audio Lambda transport that I sent in to be modified with better parts. I think Mod Squad performed this work but not 100% sure. They upgraded the transport and a good part of the highs were gone when I got it back. The KEF speakers I had at the time were not heavy on the highs to begin with and I was expecting the transport to sound "better." It actually sounded better in my system before it was "upgraded" with better parts. After I sold the KEF'S and got the Maggies then it was fine as the Maggies can sound a bit hot depending on setup and if you put the tweeters inside or outside. So, in this instance with the KEF's it was better with cheaper parts. Cheers.

Responding to MichaelsMinute's post #37 above (can someone school this old fart on how to add in other folk's quotes? I click on each one and it doesn't add them, thanks) it By specs I mean watts, input and output impedence, similar topology and 20-20,000hz +/- .5db or something similar.

Originally Posted by stereogeek

Responding to MichaelsMinute's post #37 above (can someone school this old fart on how to add in other folk's quotes? I click on each one and it doesn't add them, thanks) it By specs I mean watts, input and output impedence, similar topology and 20-20,000hz +/- .5db or something similar.

From one old fart to another:

Are you clicking on "Reply With Quote" at the bottom right of the post that you're replying to? That will quote the entire post, and below that you simply type your reply.

If you only want to quote a certain part, just copy and paste whatever you want.

Thanks, JCS123.

Here is another instance where "better" parts didn't sound as good. I was tube rolling with a DAC I had many years ago. I bought some Telefunken Smooth Plates as they were supposed to be the "bee's knees." The Telefunken's just didn't have the drive and pace that the cheap Golden Dragons had. BTW, the Telefunkens tested very good on my tube tester so they weren't worn out. And another instance....My much cheaper Cardas speaker cables sound better than my expensive Tara Lab speaker cables. These examples have to qualified with the statement "in my system" as everything is system dependent. Cheers all.

Originally Posted by stereogeek

It is widely thought that more expensive parts give you better sound. What if your system is really laid back and it needs a bit more highs? A lot of times cheaper parts will not sound as smooth as more expensive ones and have more highs so in this instance cheaper parts would be a better match for the system. This is why system matching is very important. For example....a bright speaker should be matched with a smooth (dark) amplifier. Agree?

No. Playing synergies against each other results in greater distortion. Better to have each part of the system stand on its merits rather than its weaknesses!

If the more expensive parts actually measure better then they can offer an improvement. The more feedback the amplifier uses, the more it can reject the effects of the various parts. Tube amps never have anywhere near enough feedback so the parts they use can really affect the sound because less distortion is being generated.

WRT ASR: The problem they seem to have over there IMO is that they've not figured out the link between measurements and how they affect the sound. I don't know if this is due to a lack of understanding how the ear/brain system works or what.

But the measurements are really important; if they are all there you can predict how the amp will sound without hearing it (certainly not how it was 30 years ago!). And ASR does provide most of the important bits. I find it strangely ironic.

After all these decades, it is still wise to heed the words of Daniel Recklinghausen: "If it measures good and sounds bad, — it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, — you've measured the wrong thing."

ASR seems to ignore this but its obvious that Mr. Recklinghausen had drawn the same conclusion that I have.

Ralph, I have read many dozens of your posts and I believe I have disagreed with you on very few occasions. But I don't agree with you here. If a system sounds better to me by matching dark sounding components with say, a pair of hot speakers then who cares about the measurements?

Originally Posted by stereogeek

Ralph, I have read many dozens of your posts and I believe I have disagreed with you on very few occasions. But I don't agree with you here. If a system sounds better to me by matching dark sounding components with say, a pair of hot speakers then who cares about the measurements?

My point is that something dark isn't likely to be synergistic with something bright in an ideal way. The reason something can be bright might be due to unmasked distortion- higher ordered harmonics not masked by the 2nd and 3rd harmonics. We've all heard solid state amps with this problem! Since the brightness isn't caused by a frequency response error, putting such an amp on a 'dark' speaker might result in a dark sounding system that is still harsh and annoying.

The measurements in this case has to be the distortion spectra of the amplifier- if you only have 'THD' that's insufficient to make any kind of assessment, other than perhaps a really low THD figure might actually sound bad due to the only distortion it has being the higher orders. The ear uses the higher ordered harmonics to sense how loud a sound is, so its keenly sensitive to their presence and if they've been messed with!

The reason you can get into trouble with synergies is the ear assigns tonality to all forms of distortion: the 'warmth' of tubes for example is the 2nd and 3rd harmonic having this assignment by the ear. Similarly, aliasing of digital is also distortion (in the analog world might be called 'inharmonic distortion') and similar to higher ordered harmonics, the ear perceives that as brightness. These assignments exist independently of tonal colorations brought on by frequency response error.

Mind you this is only one reason to avoid synergistic effects. If you're spending hard-earned cash, you can spend the same amount on equipment that doesn't have the problems (bright or 'dark') and so does not need to seek synergy. You wind up with something that is more musical IME.

I don't know about distortion measurements and all that but I do know that every component is not neutral like each manufacturer claims. That's why all of us buy, sell and replace our components to find the ones that match the best. Unfortunately measurements will not do that for us.

Originally Posted by stereogeek

I don't know about distortion measurements and all that but I do know that every component is not neutral like each manufacturer claims. That's why all of us buy, sell and replace our components to find the ones that match the best. Unfortunately measurements will not do that for us.

Yes- that's the way it was since the 1950s- the spec sheet really didn't tell you anything about how the equipment sounded. It should. The technology to do that has now existed for about 20 years, but one thing about that - I think a lot of manufacturers really don't want you to know how it sounds before you buy. The want you to know reputation and the message from the marketing department. An incomplete spec sheet has been an essential part of that.