Thread: New First Watt F8

Just ran into the announcement of the new First Watt F8 amplifier.

FIRST WATT

F8 Power Amplifier



Originally created almost 6 years ago, the F8 is a stereo two-stage single-ended Class A amplifier using the NOS Toshiba 2SJ74 P channel Jfets and SemiSouth R100 SiC power Jfets for signal gain, plus IRFP240 Mosfet mu-follower current sources, for a total of three devices per channel.
It is similar to the J2 amplifier, but has only one front end transistor instead of six, operated as a current feedback amplifier (CFA) as opposed to the J2's voltage feedback (VFA) differential input. This front end is more consistent with the single-ended approach to amplifier design and yields a purer second harmonic character, less distortion with lower negative feedback, greater bandwidth and higher damping factor.
The owner's manual can be downloaded here: F8 Owner's Manual
Availability is September 2020 at a list price of $4000.


Are you watching Joe?

Oh boy I am.

Nelson Pass is a genius in my opinion. I can’t wait for this amp. Apparently he’s been kicking around the idea for many many years. I think this design started with Joe Sammut who Nelson says had golden ears and was very familiar with the subtle changes Nelson made.

Looks great, unfortunately there is no way it is compatible with my Magnepan's .

Too little power Randy.

Looks fun

Originally Posted by joeinid

Oh boy I am.

I think this design started with Joe Sammut who Nelson says had golden ears and was very familiar with the subtle changes Nelson made.

Joe,

Do you know how & when Joe Sammut passed?

I always considered him a friend, and then I noticed he was gone...

I’m sorry Jim, I don’t. I remember seeing one of the recent videos on YouTube with Nelson and Steve Guttenberg where Nelson briefly mentioned it.

I’ll see if I can find it and post the video. It was probably the video about two months back.

Yea, I figured no matter what 15 WPC is not enough for any Magnepan speakers. I also watched Steve Guttenberg's video review of the MG .7's which he absolutely loves (I believe he said they are his favorite speaker). He made a point to mention that he was powering the speakers with a Pass amp that is 25 WPC into 8 ohm, but it is 50 WPC into 4 ohm.

If I ever had an opportunity to try a First Watt F6 again I would love it. It is basically the First Watt version of the Pass amp that Steve was using. It is one amplifier that I really miss and would love to get my hands on another one.. Now if I could get that amp with balanced inputs... that would be amazing!

I would also say the T+A is very similar sound signature and performance to the First Watt! I know the First Watt is class a and the T+A is a/b, but over all music performance gave me the same feelings with the two.

Duplicated Post

Originally Posted by Dizzie

Yes. From the owner's manual:

Damping Factor40 @ 8 OHMS

Output power 8 ohms 25 watts @ 1% THD, 1KHz

Output power 4 ohms 15 watts @ 1% THD, 1KHz

I wonder what the power output would be for 18 ohm Avantgarde speakers?

Being Class A and consuming 170 watts, this is likely to be a 24/7 consumption figure – there’s no Standby Switch and presumably no Auto-Standby circuit. The only way to stop this waste of energy is to fumble around amongst the cables for the rear panel on-off switch. Totally illegal in EU as amps need to use only a few watts when not in use. Sorry, but however good it sounds and however much of a genius Nelson Pass is, it’s a flawed design.

If the T&A AMP 8 really sounds similar, I’ll give that alisten.

I have no doubt the F8 is a great amp.

I had the SIT1 monos and they were glorious on my Avantgardes. If my room was bigger and if I was able to sit further away from the speakers, I’d still have them. They filled up the room with an awesome soundstage and tremendous 3D presentation.

My SIT3 is a little more laid back and suits my setup a little better.

My F7 splits the difference between them and gives me the best of both.

I think the F8 is a super refined J2 which should be great as well.

Originally Posted by Jim Smith

Joe,

Do you know how & when Joe Sammut passed?

I always considered him a friend, and then I noticed he was gone...

Joe passed a few years ago. Joe and I were Life long Friends. I actually got Joe involved with “High End Audio” when I sold him a pair of Quad 57’s back in the day. That’s how we met, when I used to live in the Bay Area ( San Francisco/Oakland ).

A great guy with a real love of music.

Originally Posted by Hear Here

I wonder what the power output would be for 18 ohm Avantgarde speakers?

Being Class A and consuming 170 watts, this is likely to be a 24/7 consumption figure – there’s no Standby Switch and presumably no Auto-Standby circuit. The only way to stop this waste of energy is to fumble around amongst the cables for the rear panel on-off switch. Totally illegal in EU as amps need to use only a few watts when not in use. Sorry, but however good it sounds and however much of a genius Nelson Pass is, it’s a flawed design.

If the T&A AMP 8 really sounds similar, I’ll give that alisten.

When I had the F6 I never found it that big of a deal to reach over the amp to flip the power switch. Yes it would have been preferred to have the switch on the front, but it was not a deal breaker. Certainly would not leave a class A amp on 24/7... the heat alone would be too much .

With the T+A there is also no power switch on the front and the one on the back is covered by the power cord connector by any but the most basic power cable. I also wish there was a power switch on the front.

I have two options; I can hook the trigger cable from the DAC, but then I would have to turn on the DAC even when listening to records, and the amp would come on when listening to headphones. Granted nothing would come out the speakers because the pre-amp is off.

Or, use the auto mode. The amp automatically turns on if a signal is received from the pre. It works, but I find I always pre-play something to "kick the amp on". The amp turns off if no signal present for 20 minutes. Not a big deal but I would prefer to control when the amp comes on and off. There are also times when I might do something, maybe help Cheryal with something, and the amp has turned off. Of course pre-warming the amp is not possible unless maybe turn on the tuner for a bit, for example. I do find all my gear sounds better after 30 minutes or so of warm up.

This also presents one other problem. I would not mind using the pre-amp when listening to headphones but since the amp will automatically come on this would defeat the purpose. Therefore the headphone amp gets its signal from the DAC. Again, a power switch on the front of the amplifier would be preferred.

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

When I had the F6 I never found it that big of a deal to reach over the amp to flip the power switch. Yes it would have been preferred to have the switch on the front, but it was not a deal breaker. Certainly would not leave a class A amp on 24/7... the heat alone would be too much .

With the T+A there is also no power switch on the front and the one on the back is covered by the power cord connector by any but the most basic power cable. I also wish there was a power switch on the front.

I have two options; I can hook the trigger cable from the DAC, but then I would have to turn on the DAC even when listening to records, and the amp would come on when listening to headphones. Granted nothing would come out the speakers because the pre-amp is off.

Or, use the auto mode. The amp automatically turns on if a signal is received from the pre. It works, but I find I always pre-play something to "kick the amp on". The amp turns off if no signal present for 20 minutes. Not a big deal but I would prefer to control when the amp comes on and off. There are also times when I might do something, maybe help Cheryal with something, and the amp has turned off. Of course pre-warming the amp is not possible unless maybe turn on the tuner for a bit, for example. I do find all my gear sounds better after 30 minutes or so of warm up.

This also presents one other problem. I would not mind using the pre-amp when listening to headphones but since the amp will automatically come on this would defeat the purpose. Therefore the headphone amp gets its signal from the DAC. Again, a power switch on the front of the amplifier would be preferred.

Thanks for your helpful repy, Randy.

Yes if your Class A amp is on an open top shelf, it's easy enough (but inconvienient) to reach behind the unit to switch it off, but what is Nelson thinking of to not have a front panel switch? I boycott his amps for that reason - there are plenty of excellent Class A ones that are far more user and envirnment friendly with front panel switches and/or auto shut-down circuits to comply with environment-concious countries' regulations - and not more costly than his amps.

The T&A is Class AB so less wasteful if left on - in fact, when idle these amps consume very little compared with A. My Avantgarde speakers have built-in AB amps that are left on permanently (unless I'm away for a week or more) and are stone cold when idle. As I understand Class A, they consume as much idle as when operating at full power. Peter

Nelson has stated that you should not leave a class A on all the time. It draws full, 100%, power all the time. Your electric bill will double, triple, more... also heat will pull the life down considerably. Not bad when listening, but those 8, 10, 15 hours or more not being used will pull the life of the amp way down.

It only takes 15, 20 minutes, give or take for the amp to fully warm up. Leaving them on 24/7 makes zero sense.

He is not the only one mentioning the rear switch... but I also felt it was not terribly bad.

The T+A will not allow you to leave it on. It turns off after 20 minutes if not used. I notice it sound considerably better after a little warm up, like 15 minutes, 20 tops.

I will also mention that I loved the First Watt amplifier that I own, however in purity in sound the T+A is very close if not equal. Much smaller, both SE and Balanced inputs, less heat, more power, and built like a tank.

Originally Posted by puroagave

this is the second time you mentioned the power switch location as a flaw which doesn't seem to bother anyone but you. First Watt is minimalist by design, its devoid of superfluous circuitry like output protection relays, standby modes, soft start, etc. Its meant to be left on continuously for best sonic performance. If Nelson's design philosophy conflicts with your 'green' sensibilities then the decision has been made for you, there's no need to deride an amplifier you haven't even heard.

Yes, the second time - and perhaps potential buyers with an ounce of thought for the well-being of the planet may consider this point if mentioned twice - or more often.

There is an on-off switch on Nelson's amps so no need for "poluting" circuits that put the amp into standby or off after a period of non-use - all he needs to do is relocate the switch (perhaps a push one) to the front panel. Job done with no extra circuitry, though still ittegal in EU where there seems to be more concern for the environment.

As a fellow Avantgarde owner, I'm always looking for the ideal amp, but Nelson's are not on my list. They are not available (legally) in UK or any of Europe for that matter. I note you use Valvet amplification yourself and their E2se is on my list to audition when my new AG Duo XDs arrive in a week or so. I'd be interesred to know how you find Valvet with your speakers Peter

Some of Nelson's amps are certainly available. The Pass lineup for example ...

And I totally agree, I cannot imagine it would have been any more difficult to have simply put the power switch on the front. It really would be a matter of running a couple wires to the front instead of the rear .

In also know, because Nelson told me, that he had purchased a ton of these cases a long time ago. Therefore I assume the power switch, located in the rear is being used because this is how the cases are configured. Wiring to the front or the back is no differences at all... but the switch is already on the rear of the cases...

I totally agree with your assessments of the E2 vs F7 and various tube amps. I’m also curious about the F8 - just because it’s new and coming out. Nothing beats a good quiet tube amp, nothing. But the convenience of solid state is undeniable and sound quality is always getting better.

I’m sorry I sold my Luxman MQ-300 but there’s always something else around the corner. I personally love a warm, sweet, round and 3D sound stage. I’m not sure what’s next but I have about 3-4 ideas.

So far the SIT3 is my absolute favorite solid state amp on my Avantgarde, with the GAT2, the SIT3 is sublime. The Luxman 590 is a close second.

Originally Posted by puroagave

Joeind has the Valvet E2 and Duos and more experience matching SS amps with the Avantgarde than I presently do. The Uno Fino is smaller and I use them in a smaller space than you would the Duo. That said, the Valvet is 12 WPC into 8 ohms and probably half that into 18 0hms. I have PLENTY of drive with 6 watts or whatever the E2 puts out. I'm interested in the F8 only because its my nature and there is no endgame in the way I view this hobby. As far as Valvet vs PP or classic SET valve amps, the Valvet is more transparent and detailed but less dimensional or 'round' sounding than say a 300B or 845/211 based amp. The E2 actually sounds very much like the First Watt F7 I had on loan. The Valvet E2 is in a slimline chassis and fits anywhere in a rack, it runs hot to the touch (underside) as it uses the entire bottom plate as a heat sink. The E2's power switch is hidden under the front face plate but easily accessible.

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

I also know, because Nelson told me, that he had purchased a ton of these cases a long time ago. Therefore I assume the power switch, located in the rear is being used because this is how the cases are configured. Wiring to the front or the back is no differences at all... but the switch is already on the rear of the cases...

I'm sure the ton of cases was not bought "off the shelf" as he could have ordered them by the dozen if they were. No doubt he specified the design and the case builder wanted an order of a ton. Well he didn't specify carefully. No easily accessable on-off switch for a Class A amp is inexcusable.

OK, let's give the benefit of the doubt - he had other things on his mind and forgot that users would want to turn off his amps - why then dosen't he drill a hole in the front panel of his remaining front panels for a push-button switch and add a blanking plate to block the hole in the back panel? A few $ would do the job without spoiling the case one jot.

Originally Posted by Kingrex

FWIW. I highly doubt Nelson just made a mistake in placing the power switch. Grounding and layout inside an amp is all about precise wire management. I am confident the power switch is where it is to enhance performance and lower noise.

I totally agree.

Originally Posted by Hear Here

I'm sure the ton of cases was not bought "off the shelf" as he could have ordered them by the dozen if they were. No doubt he specified the design and the case builder wanted an order of a ton. Well he didn't specify carefully. No easily accessible on-off switch for a Class A amp is inexcusable.

OK, let's give the benefit of the doubt - he had other things on his mind and forgot that users would want to turn off his amps - why then doesn't he drill a hole in the front panel of his remaining front panels for a push-button switch and add a blanking plate to block the hole in the back panel? A few $ would do the job without spoiling the case one jot.

He told me these cases where purchased/built for him many years ago... if you notice, all First Watt amps pretty much look the same, other than logo on the face plate.

I would prefer the switch on the front, but I also felt that the switches location was not that big of a deal to me. It certainly was not inaccessible. I always made sure that there was plenty of room around the First Watt since being Class A it got rather warm.

Also, I trust the genius that is Nelson Pass. He definitely did it this way for a reason. What may appear easy to me looking inside the case probably had a sonic reason for being located there .... as I also assume with my T+A. Being who they are they just designed an automatic way around it, although there are always plus and minuses in every design decision.

The best amps I ever heard (most involving musically) with Avantgardes were Viva - all of them actually - but especially the Auroras with 845 tubes.

IMO, IME.