AJ Soundfield
Active member
It ought to be sitting on red carpet for the paparazzi!
New B&O ICE Power 1200AS2 Module @ Nord: 600W into 8Ohms 1200W into 4Ohms
- Thread starter Showroom Dummies
- Start date
I saw one of these amps in person or one that looks a lot like it. They are striking in person, really pieces of art. The one that was on display had a big scratch across it and all I could think of is how much it would cost to fix it.
Barrows, regarding the NC500 you make a very good point. The fact they are duel mono and they cost double the 1200as2 it's not really a fair comparison. I think for the money it would be hard to beat the 1200as2. But like AJ says it all subjective anyway. My take away after listening to this amp for several weeks is that class D has opened the door for really good sound without spending huge amounts of money. I haven't heard the NC500 but even if I did and thought it sounded better I'm not sure I would spend the money. If it sounded a LOT better then maybe a different story.
It will be good to get more feedback once more people have heard both. Borrows is right, comparing the amps needs to be more of an apples to apples process if anything meaningful is going to surface from it.
Barrows, regarding the NC500 you make a very good point. The fact they are duel mono and they cost double the 1200as2 it's not really a fair comparison. I think for the money it would be hard to beat the 1200as2. But like AJ says it all subjective anyway. My take away after listening to this amp for several weeks is that class D has opened the door for really good sound without spending huge amounts of money. I haven't heard the NC500 but even if I did and thought it sounded better I'm not sure I would spend the money. If it sounded a LOT better then maybe a different story.
It will be good to get more feedback once more people have heard both. Borrows is right, comparing the amps needs to be more of an apples to apples process if anything meaningful is going to surface from it.
barrows
New member
Yeah Greg. I do not (yet) know the OEM price of the 1200 AS! modules, but I bet it is affordable enough that a dual mono version of the amp would still be quite reasonably priced (mono blocks of course would be more for the case, etc). I really want to build a dual mono 1200 AS1 amp myself, and may get on that at some point here...
Barrows,
My understanding is that the 1200as2 is about half of the NC500 board. I was told that the price between the as1 and as2 is minimal and almost not worth waiting. If you purchase two as2 modules instead you would always have the option of making two amps.
I forgot to add, if you do find out how to buy a 1200as2 module by itself I may be interested in purchasing one. It would be fun to put one together myself and since you don't have to do anything special to them it should be pretty easy.
My understanding is that the 1200as2 is about half of the NC500 board. I was told that the price between the as1 and as2 is minimal and almost not worth waiting. If you purchase two as2 modules instead you would always have the option of making two amps.
I forgot to add, if you do find out how to buy a 1200as2 module by itself I may be interested in purchasing one. It would be fun to put one together myself and since you don't have to do anything special to them it should be pretty easy.
Ric Schultz
New member
Hi,
New to this forum. I hope this is a super mellow place to share our experience and thoughts.
Here are my thoughts on the 1200AS2:
1. If you are already selling the Hypex Ncore amps and then comes along a cheaper module that is better and you claim it is, then you will never sell another Ncore amp and all your modules, chassis and power supplies have to be thrown away. I personally would not trust anyone who sells both to tell you what is really going on. There are already two people who have A/Bed the Nord one up to the 1200AS2 and both found the 1200AS2 to be sonically better. I would trust these people over those that sell both modules. There will be more doing these comparisons in the future too. I was going to give some links to the A/Bs but the Minerva forum on Audiocircle is gone and so are all the threads. One of these two A/Bs were using two 1200AS2 modules (two stereo chassis) and the other was a single stereo module.
2. Dual mono.....I have no reason to doubt that dual mono 1200AS2s or 1s would sound better. However, it looks like even one beats the Nc500.
3. Wire, connectors and chassis: Everything makes a difference. What brand of solder, directionality of wires, damping.....everything.....this is my experience playing in this game for 40 years. All brands of amps using the same module will sound slightly different from each other. However, there is much more to making good sound than using the worlds greatest wire, connectors and heavy chassis. I will be introducing a 1200AS2 based amp later this summer that will have lots of "other stuff added and done". These things will make it sound mucho better than any other 1200AS2 amp.....hopefully....have not done this yet.....just know what I can do. I will have 3 stereo amps out on tour in a month or so, so everyone can verify themselves how good this amp is versus whatever.
4. Balanced.......years ago I heard a modded NC400 here and listened to it single ended and then balanced. The same brand and type of interconnect was used and the source was pure balanced or unbalanced (modded Oppo 105). Balanced sounded much better.....even from the kitchen it sounded "more real".
I cannot wait to tweak this amp!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is going to be fun.
New to this forum. I hope this is a super mellow place to share our experience and thoughts.
Here are my thoughts on the 1200AS2:
1. If you are already selling the Hypex Ncore amps and then comes along a cheaper module that is better and you claim it is, then you will never sell another Ncore amp and all your modules, chassis and power supplies have to be thrown away. I personally would not trust anyone who sells both to tell you what is really going on. There are already two people who have A/Bed the Nord one up to the 1200AS2 and both found the 1200AS2 to be sonically better. I would trust these people over those that sell both modules. There will be more doing these comparisons in the future too. I was going to give some links to the A/Bs but the Minerva forum on Audiocircle is gone and so are all the threads. One of these two A/Bs were using two 1200AS2 modules (two stereo chassis) and the other was a single stereo module.
2. Dual mono.....I have no reason to doubt that dual mono 1200AS2s or 1s would sound better. However, it looks like even one beats the Nc500.
3. Wire, connectors and chassis: Everything makes a difference. What brand of solder, directionality of wires, damping.....everything.....this is my experience playing in this game for 40 years. All brands of amps using the same module will sound slightly different from each other. However, there is much more to making good sound than using the worlds greatest wire, connectors and heavy chassis. I will be introducing a 1200AS2 based amp later this summer that will have lots of "other stuff added and done". These things will make it sound mucho better than any other 1200AS2 amp.....hopefully....have not done this yet.....just know what I can do. I will have 3 stereo amps out on tour in a month or so, so everyone can verify themselves how good this amp is versus whatever.
4. Balanced.......years ago I heard a modded NC400 here and listened to it single ended and then balanced. The same brand and type of interconnect was used and the source was pure balanced or unbalanced (modded Oppo 105). Balanced sounded much better.....even from the kitchen it sounded "more real".
I cannot wait to tweak this amp!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is going to be fun.
Ric Schultz
New member
Thanks for having me.
It looks like the Mivera Forum on Audiocircle is back up but most of the threads have been binned. I don't want to search through the binned threads to find the A/Bs with the NC500 and 1200AS2 amps. They do exist though. There will be plenty of people who will A/B them in the future.
It looks like the Mivera Forum on Audiocircle is back up but most of the threads have been binned. I don't want to search through the binned threads to find the A/Bs with the NC500 and 1200AS2 amps. They do exist though. There will be plenty of people who will A/B them in the future.
Rick, There was also a user on one of those threads who listened to both and he said it was a toss up with him leaning to the NC500, he owned both.
Do you really think these other companies are saying the NC500 is better just so they don't have to eat their remaining inventory? This would mean they would no longer be selling the NC500 once their inventory is depleted, I guess we shall see.
One of the disadvantages to the 1200as2 is you cannot change opamps to adjust the sound to your liking. I know you think wire and connectors can make huge differences but I personally would spend my money on room treatments anyday. Or for that matter better equipment in general. You can't dig gold out of a coal mine.
Do you really think these other companies are saying the NC500 is better just so they don't have to eat their remaining inventory? This would mean they would no longer be selling the NC500 once their inventory is depleted, I guess we shall see.
One of the disadvantages to the 1200as2 is you cannot change opamps to adjust the sound to your liking. I know you think wire and connectors can make huge differences but I personally would spend my money on room treatments anyday. Or for that matter better equipment in general. You can't dig gold out of a coal mine.
AJ Soundfield
Active member
Yes, heaven forbid someone prefers one or the other module (or a tie!) subjectively for no other reason, rather than anything duplicitous.
If I'm to understand the logic correctly, someone who sells both isn't to be trusted, but someone who sells one, is? :doubtful:
That makes little sense to me, YMMV.
If I'm to understand the logic correctly, someone who sells both isn't to be trusted, but someone who sells one, is? :doubtful:
That makes little sense to me, YMMV.
Ric Schultz
New member
AJ,
I don't think you should trust any dealer or manufacturer (including me)..........trust your ears. But if people A/B in their own home and have no affiliation with either company then their feedback is certainly the most trustworthy. This is why I am going to be sending out 3 amps on tour. You will get some serious no nonsense feedback that way (and nothing I can control).
Greg,
I followed those threads everyday and I don't remember anyone preferring a Nord one up to the 1200AS. There is one of Mike's customers that has his one off $12,000 integrated DAC/slagle volume control/NC500 in one box. However, the NC500 in that box has no input stage. It is being driven by the single discrete op amps on the output of the DAC. You cannot buy an NC500 amp this way. It needs an input stage. This person did say he preferred the internal NC500 module to the external 1200AS2. If you have a link to another person who says they preferred the Nord amp or other NC500 amp, I would like to see it.
There are a lot of things that can improve the sound besides wire, connectors and case. I will have a lot of stuff inside my box.....and I will be doing some serious tweaking. We shall see what it brings. You don't need to change op amps on the input to make the sound better. I am not going to reveal the heart of my product until it is in production but here are a couple of things that I will be doing with wire and connectors that are not generally done that I have mentioned on forums:
1. Binding post bypass system: You bring the wire through a hole in the chassis and put it though the hole on the outside of the binding post. This way you are just clamping your speaker wire spade or bare wire directly to the wire that goes inside the amp...bypassing the "meat" of the binding post. I have been doing this for years and this kind of post system is totally useable and has better sound than any binding post available.
2. Wire directionality: All wire sounds best in a particular direction.....you can hear this with 2 inches of wire. All wires inside my amp will be oriented for best sound. Very few people know about this or do this.
These two things above are just the tip of the iceberg..........One option I will have is hardwired interconnect. There has never been an amp with no input connectors on it. These kind of things all make the sound better and when you do a bunch of things like this and "even more" then you get an entirely different level of performance. This has been my experience. Obviously, these are just words. All things will be known to those that have patience and persistence.
I don't think you should trust any dealer or manufacturer (including me)..........trust your ears. But if people A/B in their own home and have no affiliation with either company then their feedback is certainly the most trustworthy. This is why I am going to be sending out 3 amps on tour. You will get some serious no nonsense feedback that way (and nothing I can control).
Greg,
I followed those threads everyday and I don't remember anyone preferring a Nord one up to the 1200AS. There is one of Mike's customers that has his one off $12,000 integrated DAC/slagle volume control/NC500 in one box. However, the NC500 in that box has no input stage. It is being driven by the single discrete op amps on the output of the DAC. You cannot buy an NC500 amp this way. It needs an input stage. This person did say he preferred the internal NC500 module to the external 1200AS2. If you have a link to another person who says they preferred the Nord amp or other NC500 amp, I would like to see it.
There are a lot of things that can improve the sound besides wire, connectors and case. I will have a lot of stuff inside my box.....and I will be doing some serious tweaking. We shall see what it brings. You don't need to change op amps on the input to make the sound better. I am not going to reveal the heart of my product until it is in production but here are a couple of things that I will be doing with wire and connectors that are not generally done that I have mentioned on forums:
1. Binding post bypass system: You bring the wire through a hole in the chassis and put it though the hole on the outside of the binding post. This way you are just clamping your speaker wire spade or bare wire directly to the wire that goes inside the amp...bypassing the "meat" of the binding post. I have been doing this for years and this kind of post system is totally useable and has better sound than any binding post available.
2. Wire directionality: All wire sounds best in a particular direction.....you can hear this with 2 inches of wire. All wires inside my amp will be oriented for best sound. Very few people know about this or do this.
These two things above are just the tip of the iceberg..........One option I will have is hardwired interconnect. There has never been an amp with no input connectors on it. These kind of things all make the sound better and when you do a bunch of things like this and "even more" then you get an entirely different level of performance. This has been my experience. Obviously, these are just words. All things will be known to those that have patience and persistence.
The 1200AS1 is the same board as 1200AS2 with some parts on one channel de-popped and with the same power supply - this is a very standard h/w design pattern for board designs. I have the Nords One up (and have both the SI and Sparkos) monoblock and also use two Takachi 1200AS2 chassis (from Mivera) using only one channel on each amp which is equivalent to monoblock configuration.
Yes, I would agree. Anyone believing the manufacturers of both the amp that one sounds better than the other is silly.
Moreover, folks without any experience with any of the 1200as or Nords would give their expert opinion which is rather annoying.
Yeah, that would be me. I am the only one who bought two of them to run in a monoblock config. here is the early review from AC:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154910.msg1660700#msg1660700
I agree but I don't think there is a difference between 2 and 1s provided you run the 2s single channel. The 1s are the same 2s with some parts on one channel de-popped - very standard board design.
I would be interested to hear one of yours.
Showroom Dummies
New member
- Thread Author
- #113
This thread is finally getting some momentum.
I'm no expert in these matters but I find it very interesting.
I'm no expert in these matters but I find it very interesting.
Devg,
I don't understand what you mean by this, are you missing a word?
Devg said: Anyone believing the manufacturers of both the amp that one sounds better than the other is silly.
Are you saying a manufacturer wouldn't say which one they think is better and that I'm lying about it? Or are you saying like Rick, that the people selling both these amps are lying as to which on is better?
I don't understand what you mean by this, are you missing a word?
Devg said: Anyone believing the manufacturers of both the amp that one sounds better than the other is silly.
Are you saying a manufacturer wouldn't say which one they think is better and that I'm lying about it? Or are you saying like Rick, that the people selling both these amps are lying as to which on is better?
Ric Schultz
New member
Please don't put words in my mouth! I never said Nord/whomever is lying about which amp is better. I am just saying it is possible.....especially given the feedback of the Mivera versus the Nord. Maybe they listened and actually feel that the NC500 is better. What I am saying is that they cannot be trusted to give an objective "truth".....since they have much to lose if they said the cheaper one is better.
None of this matters. What matters is what people hear when they compare the amps. Let us wait for more direct feedback.
AJ Soundfield
Active member
Well, the AS1200 exhibits more HF phase shift than the AS700...and here is one trusted audiophiles impression vs the Ncore
Go figure that one. Maybe age related?
cheers,
AJ
Go figure that one. Maybe age related?
cheers,
AJ
Ric Schultz
New member
Now isn't that funny. Your "trusted audiophile" is none other than Mike (bavmike, Mivera Audio, Blizzard, etc.). Mivera Audio is using the 1200AS2 and claims it sounds way better than anything in the world....he he. He thinks the more than 10 year old design of the AS700 is very dated and that this new IcePower IceEdge module is better than Ncore. These kind of measurement things really don't mean much of anything. Please listen to the module versus another module and decide for yourself. Age related? Mike is a youngster by my measurement (I am 70). Everyone says the highs on the 1200AS2 are really great. Again, please listen.
AJ Soundfield
Active member
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I was just reading about someone who really likes this module, I don't think it's old though.