Finally Pulled the trigger

**veindoc** · August 23, 2013, 12:40 AM

After almost 6 months of trying to complete a proper pairing for my TAD CR-1 speakers and XP-20 pre, I finally pulled the trigger and made my final choices of amp and DAC. I am proud I was patient, work thru this process(which often seemed like Paralysis thru Analysis). The lists of what came thru my system included the following amps in no particular order. Musical Fidelity(My OLd F-15, Class A 100watts/ channel), TAD 2500, Rowland 625 & 525, Ayre VX-R, and Vx-5, Aesthetix hybrid, Pass x250, Vitus rs100, Merrill Veritas, Krell 402e, Nagra MSA, Lindemann 855, and Bryston 4bsst. The Zanden was just too friggin high and large but I was curious if the kt-120 based tube amp could bring out the best from my speakers. Dacs for my primarily network player based listening include AMR, Rowland Aeris, Berkeley, Meitner MA-1 and MSB ANalog dac. Many combos worked well but after 2-3 days flaws like it only sounds good really loud, empty bass, shrillness, not enough power, narrow soundstage, information loss at lower volumns, or ran like a space heater helped me to zoom in on my final choices, which I realize are totally relative and subjective. Ironically at the last minute a Ch Precision A1 almost came my way, but enough is enough and I really do know what I like. Items will arrive next week. I did move amp off desk area and a new rack will probably make me banish my desk form my study listening room. Wall panels and bass traps after room analysis arrive over the next 2-4 weeks. I can't stress how valuable room treatments were in my tight space. Echo, 1st reflections off near side walls were definitely leading to negative attributes I was blaming on speakers or amps. Really can't thank Sanjay(of Ciamara) for his patience, knowledge and gentle guidance in this process. Just a prince of a fellow. ALso want to thank Shark Standouts- Mike, Joe, and Jeff for all their assistance and fellowship. Lastly I want to thank my wife and UPS and FedEx for lugging all this stuff back and forth.

And the winners are: Viola Labs Symphony and Ayre QB-9 DSD ---runner ups were Lindemann 858 and Meitner MA-1.
The Symphony did it all-great power and finesse, at even low volumns. Class A/B does not run hot and tremendous imaging and soundstage. The Ayre upgrade is much more than just the addition of DSD. It is as good as anything even though it is usb only. Both sound great and seem to make crappy recordings sound better and great recordings sound sublime. FWIW the Aeris DAC was very very impressive on redbook cds. It was the only dac that used some type of synchronous interface as opposed to all these other dacs.
Good night all. Totally stoked, can't wait.

Nick

**Dewster** · August 23, 2013, 12:50 AM

Grats on the new addition Nik!!

Can't wait for you to post some pics for us..

**NorthStar** · August 23, 2013, 12:52 AM

I'm stoked too!

**joeinid** · August 23, 2013, 01:34 AM

Very nice Nick. Congratulations.

**veindoc** · August 23, 2013, 01:52 AM

Thnx guys

**sharkmouth** · August 23, 2013, 02:51 AM

Nice Nick, when are the speakers being upgraded?

**socfan12** · August 23, 2013, 05:08 AM

Congrats, Nick! Loved watching your amp journey unfold. I hope to visit Sanjay and listen to a similar combination some time very soon myself.

Congrats again!

**joeinid** · August 23, 2013, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by sharkmouth

Nice Nick, when are the speakers being upgraded?

Who do you think you are talking to? Me? Ha!

**veindoc** · August 23, 2013, 05:26 AM

Possible but , not likely as I keep my watt puppies for over 15 years. But history doesn't always repeat itself. I will do my best to focus on the enjoyment of the here and now and a little less on what's next. At least until both my daughters graduate collage. But I really enjoyed the journey this time.

Nick

**Mike** · August 23, 2013, 05:46 AM

Congrats Nick! You were in an unusual, but fortunate position to be able to audition all that stuff on your home and on your speakers.

Now, can you speak specifically to what the amps (and DAC) did to the lively tweeter of the CR-1's? Does the Viola control it best? What specifically made you pick the Viola over everything else?

Congrats again!

**joeinid** · August 23, 2013, 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

Congrats Nick! You were in an unusual, but fortunate position to be able to audition all that stuff on your home and on your speakers.

Now, can you speak specifically to what the amps (and DAC) did to the lively tweeter of the CR-1's? Does the Viola control it best? What specifically made you pick the Viola over everything else?

Congrats again!

+1

**Ritmo** · August 23, 2013, 06:26 AM

Congratulations Nick!

**dlb2** · August 23, 2013, 07:44 AM

Very nice Nick! You've been busy.

**johnthomas** · August 23, 2013, 11:01 AM

Very nice update, that's a whole bunch of amp contenders. Congrats on the Viola, I've read lots of positive reviews.

John

**veindoc** · August 23, 2013, 11:12 AM

Hey Mike and Joe, not exactly sure how it does this. I do not know if the integral choke filter in the power supply is unique to Viola or is behind many of the desirable qualities I experienced. I have asked Sanjay at Ciamara for some help with your query. I also noticed that with and with ac conditioners or power cords, no real improvement, I just plugged it into my dedicated 20amp furetech receptacle and away we go. I think Ayre has some built in power conditioners I wonder if Viola has something built in that assists in this regard. I forgot to mention I also am excited to mess around with the 2 sets of binding posts to see its affect on biwiring my speakers. Joe seems to have like this even with less expensive speaker cables. I also likedthat Viola doesn't bring out a new version or Mark 2,3 or 4 of a great design. They told me if better parts come out for a particular product they will incorporate it in future builds. They don't try to rewrite the wheel or design if they think it already does a really great job. To me many mark 2 or 3 version r a PR statement to pump up business but not a huge design improvement. I think that's why I also like Hansen's thoughts on his new Ayre dac with dsd. It is essential almost an entirely new design not just a quick addition of dsd capability. He knew after several years there was room for improvement and that is why this new version came out. Nice blog about this on Computeraudiophile where he is a member. I will forward any additional info soon hopefully.

Nick

**veindoc** · August 23, 2013, 11:32 AM

Just a quick post from Sanjay as he will pose question to Viola design team. His initial response as to why the Symphony sounds so sweet may relate to the way the amp is biased and the way the power transformer and input choke are utilized. Although a class AB design, it is class A at a low volumes and when you drive it harder it rolls to AB with greater efficiency.
Nick

**the professor** · August 23, 2013, 11:52 AM

Congrats.

I had the opportunity to play with the Ayre QB-9 DSD last week at home and it really is 100% better than the Ayre QB-9 it replaces and it was a really really good unit. I had them side by side. I was amazed at the difference. I agree, it is not a DSD addition, it is a whole new beast.

Enjoy your new additions.

**veindoc** · August 23, 2013, 12:10 PM

+1
Nick

**joeinid** · August 23, 2013, 02:03 PM

I was looking at the 2 chassis Viola amp and reading the Tone Audio review. It seems like the fan noise was fairly obtrusive at low listening levels. It's too bad. I'd like to hear the Symphony amp.

**veindoc** · August 23, 2013, 03:24 PM

No fans with Symphony, runs cool and chassis is part of cooling setup with vents on top. Must work as it ran cool for the two weeks I pushed it.
Nick

**socfan12** · August 23, 2013, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by joeinid

I was looking at the 2 chassis Viola amp and reading the Tone Audio review. It seems like the fan noise was fairly obtrusive at low listening levels. It's too bad. I'd like to hear the Symphony amp.

+1

Yeah, read that in the TAs review, too, too bad.

Did you read the review of the Pass Xs300 amp in the same issue? Pretty sweet, too.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

**joeinid** · August 23, 2013, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by veindoc

No fans with Symphony, runs cool and chassis is part of cooling setup with vents on top. Must work as it ran cool for the two weeks I pushed it.
Nick

I should have taken Sanjay up on his offer to hear them. I thought I knew better.

Originally Posted by socfan12

+1

Yeah, read that in the TAs review, too, too bad.

Did you read the review of the Pass Xs300 amp in the same issue? Pretty sweet, too.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

If it was not for the excessive heat ...... Oh well.

**Chr. R.** · August 23, 2013, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by johnthomas

Very nice update, that's a whole bunch of amp contenders. Congrats on the Viola, I've read lots of positive reviews.

John

Where?

**sharkmouth** · August 23, 2013, 06:07 PM

............

**Mike** · August 23, 2013, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by veindoc

Hey Mike and Joe, not exactly sure how it does this. I do not know if the integral choke filter in the power supply is unique to Viola or is behind many of the desirable qualities I experienced. I have asked Sanjay at Ciamara for some help with your query. I also noticed that with and with ac conditioners or power cords, no real improvement, I just plugged it into my dedicated 20amp furetech receptacle and away we go. I think Ayre has some built in power conditioners I wonder if Viola has something built in that assists in this regard. I forgot to mention I also am excited to mess around with the 2 sets of binding posts to see its affect on biwiring my speakers. Joe seems to have like this even with less expensive speaker cables. I also likedthat Viola doesn't bring out a new version or Mark 2,3 or 4 of a great design. They told me if better parts come out for a particular product they will incorporate it in future builds. They don't try to rewrite the wheel or design if they think it already does a really great job. To me many mark 2 or 3 version r a PR statement to pump up business but not a huge design improvement. I think that's why I also like Hansen's thoughts on his new Ayre dac with dsd. It is essential almost an entirely new design not just a quick addition of dsd capability. He knew after several years there was room for improvement and that is why this new version came out. Nice blog about this on Computeraudiophile where he is a member. I will forward any additional info soon hopefully.

Nick

Nick - can you talk to the sonic characteristics of why you picked the Viola over everything else you heard? Sweeter highs, better bass grip, midrange? What?

**Mike** · August 23, 2013, 06:25 PM

Nick- further, did you compare to D'Agostino? Soulution?

**veindoc** · August 23, 2013, 08:13 PM

Not able to arrange. Heard 710 at show with Magico. Nice setup
Nick

**joeinid** · August 23, 2013, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Nick - can you talk to the sonic characteristics of why you picked the Viola over everything else you heard? Sweeter highs, better bass grip, midrange? What?

+1

Can you tell what you liked ? .....

**Mike** · August 23, 2013, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by veindoc

Not able to arrange. Heard 710 at show with Magico. Nice setup
Nick

Fair enough. Why Viola over the others?

**veindoc** · August 24, 2013, 01:02 AM

I thought I did. Fwiw I have not heard back from Viola yet. Sanjay did say the fan is currently two different size blades on the monoblocks which r a double size version of a symphony. He said fan like the one used in apple products is silent and only turns on when amped is pushed. The tone article was actually very positive but to sound balanced the foible of the fan was mention. Solution also uses same fan. I guess anyone who wants confirmation should get comfortable and listen both from chair and close up.
As far as why Viola and why this was the most euphonic to my ears is the qualities that sound nice and mimic what I hear when I go to my favorite jazz club or rock concert. I also think that every amp i auditioned I would play the same compilation cd, all 15 cuts to hear what sounded good or better on both good and mediocre blues and jazz or rock recordings. Next played three hd download cuts. I seem to focus on was the soundstage and was the holographic window wide. Was I able to place vocalists, bass, and guitar in different position so to speak or did they all seem to come at me exactly where the vocalist appeared to b emanating from. Then I focused on tight almost palpable bass. (I love the cut Saga of Harrison Horsefeather-Bromberg ). Lastly I focus on female jazz and blues vocals to see if they r shrill or annoying or gutty and pleasing to my ear.
After this process I took notes and gave each amp a plus, minus or neutral score and a comment usually one sentence what I loved or liked or disliked. Occasionally I had 2-3 amps at same time and could literally play the same cut back to back to back.

In the end many amps were very good but I consistently came back to just not as good as the Viola. Not sure if this answers hour query but I tried

Goodnight

Nick

**joeinid** · August 24, 2013, 01:38 AM

Nick,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. It makes perfect sense and I appreciate the effort the explain your reasoning. I totally understand the labor involved to pick the perfect amp to match the TAD CR-1's. It was quite an undertaking and I've experienced some of the different levels of compatibility.

**cmalak** · August 24, 2013, 07:35 AM

Nick...congrats on the Viola amp and Ayre DAC!

**veindoc** · August 24, 2013, 10:17 AM

thnx Cyril and Joe. Amp will b hear later this week. Ayre has a 4-6 week wait. The remainder of my acoustic panels and traps arrive over the next 2-3 weeks. By mid Sept. I should have a lot of free time just to seat and enjoy. Excuse me, "whats that honey?-yes I can take the garbage up the Hill". Well I can dream can't I.
take care

Nick

**joeinid** · August 24, 2013, 10:22 AM

Ha!

**Chr. R.** · August 24, 2013, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by johnthomas

Very nice update, that's a whole bunch of amp contenders. Congrats on the Viola, I've read lots of positive reviews.

John

Hi' John

Let me try again - where can I find all these reviews?

**sharkmouth** · August 24, 2013, 06:13 PM

Wow, they sure do read good in the reviews.

**Chr. R.** · August 24, 2013, 11:46 PM

Ok, thanks for nothing

For your information, there is (unfortunately) not so many reviews of Viola, and it was my hope that you (John) knew just one review I had no knowledge of.

And to Nick: excellent choice. I also own a Symphony and therefore know how good it really sounds, even compared directly with other more well-known high-end amp. You should be able to achieve a significantly better sound by upgrading your Pass pre.

**veindoc** · August 25, 2013, 01:05 AM

I tried nagra jazz and Zanden 3100 with my class A older MF F-15. I did not have the symphony in my home at the time. I love what I heard with XP-20 and hope to explore down the road other potential preamps. What r u using with your symphony ?

Nick

**Chr. R.** · August 25, 2013, 01:34 AM

Viola Cadenza - it's good, but think that here are several alternatives such as Tidel, Classe Omega and Chord. The new Viola Crescendo could also be an alternative, but I haven't heard it.

**sharkmouth** · August 25, 2013, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by Chr. R.

Ok, thanks for nothing

For your information, there is (unfortunately) not so many reviews of Viola, and it was my hope that you (John) knew just one review I had no knowledge of.

And to Nick: excellent choice. I also own a Symphony and therefore know how good it really sounds, even compared directly with other more well-known high-end amp. You should be able to achieve a significantly better sound by upgrading your Pass pre.

Christian,if that is your name, people here are not short, curt or rude to one another. Most are here for that one reason alone & also for the reason that everyone is treated as an equal & with respect & likewise will beget the same.
In answer to your "thanks for nothing", all I did was go to their site, they are there for the world to see, or just google Viola Audio review, you will have to sift through the usual rubbish but there is a somewhat limited coverage of the brand. Seriously mate, welcome to the shark, most here have been conversing with each other for some time now & we all have bad days too, big breath & remember, smooth as cat shit, that'll do it!

**Mike** · August 25, 2013, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by sharkmouth

Christian,if that is your name, people here are not short, curt or rude to one another. Most are here for that one reason alone & also for the reason that everyone is treated as an equal & with respect & likewise will beget the same.
In answer to your "thanks for nothing", all I did was go to their site, they are there for the world to see, or just google Viola Audio review, you will have to sift through the usual rubbish but there is a somewhat limited coverage of the brand. Seriously mate, welcome to the shark, most here have been conversing with each other for some time now & we all have bad days too, big breath & remember, smooth as cat shit, that'll do it!

+1. Well said Kev. Mark would have jumped in, but he is vacationing this week.

Lets all just be nice. We don't want to turn into those other sites.

**tunes** · August 25, 2013, 08:33 AM

Nick, what were your thoughts of the Nagra Jazz? I've been interested in what they've updated the pl-l to in the Jazz.

**ciamara** · August 25, 2013, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by veindoc

Just a quick post from Sanjay as he will pose question to Viola design team. His initial response as to why the Symphony sounds so sweet may relate to the way the amp is biased and the way the power transformer and input choke are utilized. Although a class AB design, it is class A at a low volumes and when you drive it harder it rolls to AB with greater efficiency.
Nick

Hi All:

Thank you for your comments everyone. Just to build on what Nick said here, the Viola Symphony employs a choke input power supply. This provides additional filtering and improves the power factor, which in turn helps eliminate the peak charging currents found in capacitor input-only power supplies. This combined with the way the amp is biased, contributes to the sound-staging and tactile sense of the program material at all frequencies. I would describe the Viola Symphony as clean, resolving, neutral, but smooth and delicate.

Also, to another point made about reviews, Viola has not had a huge number of reviews yet, but they are coming. For those that know Viola, they have a fierce cult following, which is a function of the quality of their design team and the performance of their technologies. This engineering team has been together since the early days of Mark Levinson (before they were sold to Harman). They were later together at Cello -- another fine organization in hi-fi, which many will remember prior to its sale. Viola is the new incarnation, with the same team. Paul Jayson is the President and chief engineer, and I can only say great things about this man. He's not only a brilliant engineer, he is humble and a real pleasure to work with. Just wait until you hear the new Viola Crescendo Preamplifier with on-board USB DAC.

Ok enough out of me. I don't want to sound too promotional. Enjoy!

**joeinid** · August 25, 2013, 09:48 AM

Sanjay,

Welcome to the forum. I sincerely appreciate your input, description of Viola and some of the history. I know Nick will be a happy man.

**Chr. R.** · August 25, 2013, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

+1. Well said Kev. Mark would have jumped in, but he is vacationing this week.

Lets all just be nice. We don't want to turn into those other sites.

Posting incorrect information is not ok. Unfortunately, this happens frequently on this site, however I now look forward to seeing the many unknowns reviews in about a week

Btw., how nice is Kev, posting "Do not you start!" and "Christian,if that is your name ..."?

**veindoc** · August 25, 2013, 11:18 AM

Morning Tunes. I tried the Nagra Jazz with my old MF F-15 amp not the Symphony. I now realize I was trying to use a tube pre to offset some negative qualities of my room acoustics and not having the symphony.
That being said the Jazz is a beautifully built low maintenance (only 3 tubes), ergonomic beauty. It's remote as motorized not digital interface with the preamp. Each function vol, input, balance, and mute give a very succinct response. This is unlike a VAC pre I tried where I felt each touch especially volumn caused over or undershoot.
Sonically it likes to b paired with nagra amps. I had the Msa which was underpowered for my cr-1.
It does produce a very nice fluid soundstage, nice highs and a tight bass. Not as tight as my XP-20 or the Zanden 3100 I audition the same day. It would b neat to try other tube pres with the symphony. I just need a preamp, tube based to have good remote, not too many tubes, and preferably xlr.

**Chr. R.** · August 25, 2013, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by veindoc

...It would b neat to try other tube pres with the symphony. I just need a preamp, tube based to have good remote, not too many tubes, and preferably xlr.

Audio Research REF 5 (and SE) and add a upgrade with Duelund components

**joeinid** · August 25, 2013, 03:28 PM

Nick

Maybe you should try the CJ GAT. This will be my second time with it. Only 2 tubes and remote control. Awesome layering and depth. I missed it so much that I am getting it again.

**Chr. R.** · August 25, 2013, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by joeinid

Nick

Maybe you should try the CJ GAT. This will be my second time with it. Only 2 tubes and remote control. Awesome layering and depth. I missed it so much that I am getting it again.

But not balanced, just like the CJ ACT2 I have heard several times

**socfan12** · August 25, 2013, 04:43 PM

Sanjay, welcome to AS! Look forward to your participation here on AS!

Thread: Finally Pulled the trigger