Results 1 to 39 of 39
Thread: Attenuators
-
May 29, 2021, 12:12 PM #1
Attenuators
I own a Pass X350.8 that is being fed by a Cary SLP-05 using balanced inputs and outputs. In this configuration, the gain from the Cary is 24 dB. I find that I rarely move the preamp volume past about 8:00 and can get 90+ dB peaks at the listening position at this volume level. As I lower the volume, things can get a little squirrelly. Bottom line is I would like to lower the gain of the preamp going into the Pass. The system sounds great at high volumes, not so good at low volumes and I think there should be some advantage by raising the volume control on the preamp from that low position. I was looking at Rothwell attenuators, but I am not sure what that will do to the sonics. Would love any thoughts you guys have on the matter.
Morgan
NEW SYSTEM UNDER CONSTRUCTION
-
May 29, 2021, 04:18 PM #2
- Join Date
- May 2017
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio, USA
- Posts
- 531
Re: Attenuators
While I don't know anything about 'Rothwell attenuators', Markertek in the US has several other nice ones.
Markertek - Search Results for attenuator xlr
-
May 29, 2021, 06:50 PM #3
- Join Date
- Mar 2018
- Posts
- 435
Re: Attenuators
I have not used the Markertech attenuators, however, I have used the 12db Rothwell ones with a Cary SLP-05. I could barely turn it up to 9 o'clock as it would get too loud without the Rothwell's installed . I thought they took away a bit of detail but, as you know, sometimes it's really hard to tell. Good luck.
-
May 30, 2021, 08:38 AM #4
- Join Date
- May 2017
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio, USA
- Posts
- 531
Re: Attenuators
attenuators don't take away the detail, they reduce the background noise. It's about system 'Gain Structure' in getting each stage at it's optimum level.
-
May 30, 2021, 12:32 PM #5
-
May 30, 2021, 12:35 PM #6
-
May 30, 2021, 12:50 PM #7
Re: Attenuators
The Cary SLP-05's line stage gain drops from 24db balanced to 17db when going single ended, this might be your answer. It might also sound better particularly since the Cary--and probably the Pass as well--don't use 'fully' balanced circuits from input to output and employ additional circuitry to invert the signal for balanced operation which gets bypassed when you go SE.
-
May 30, 2021, 01:18 PM #8
Re: Attenuators
I have used this setup in a fully single ended configuration with great success. When I moved to Pass amps, I tried balanced again and there was no going back. Much improved sonics. Kent English at Pass Labs confirmed for me that the Cary and Pass combination is best as balanced. I had always found the reverse to be true with other amps, but not with the Pass. I have recently began experimenting with the balanced inputs to the Cary. I had tried this configuration in the past (prior to the Ultimate Upgrade on the Cary) and always preferred single ended. I recently tried it again and am preferring the balanced inputs which put another set of tubes in the signal path. This is when I have run into the gain issue as you have indicated. I think I am going to get a set of balanced attenuators (likely Rothwell) which I can experiment with on the amp input vs the preamp input to see which is best and if this is even a viable option. Investment isn’t that high to conduct the experiment.
Morgan
NEW SYSTEM UNDER CONSTRUCTION
-
May 30, 2021, 01:21 PM #9
Re: Attenuators
Also, I have an 8 meter run from pre to amp which makes single ended problematic.
Morgan
NEW SYSTEM UNDER CONSTRUCTION
-
May 30, 2021, 01:32 PM #10
Re: Attenuators
Wow 8M ..!!
The additional db gain says balanced input structure IMO, many balanced designs are not full differential but still run a “balanced” gain structure at input for noise control. Balanced claims are now becoming like “ Full class A “claims all marketing play along gibberish really, their is no such device I’m aware of currently that is full class A ...
Regards
-
May 30, 2021, 01:41 PM #11
Re: Attenuators
Both the Cary and the Pass are differentially balanced.
Morgan
NEW SYSTEM UNDER CONSTRUCTION
-
May 30, 2021, 02:09 PM #12
Re: Attenuators
Or around 26 ft which ive done before going SE from a CJ tube preamp to a Krell SS amp with no issues. The SLP05 has an output impedance of 400 ohm which is great in your case, as long your ICs are low in capacitance you wouldn't have bass issues but if you have ground loop issues then going SE will exacerbate them.
-
May 30, 2021, 02:23 PM #13
Re: Attenuators
Let us know how the Rothwell works out. The elephant in the room still remains, the Cary has too much line stage gain. I've owned several ol skool tube preamps when 24db of line stage gain was de rigueur to make up for the low-ish gain of their internal phono stages. With separate phono stages being more common today the utility of 24db line stages has all but disappeared.
-
May 30, 2021, 06:34 PM #14
- Join Date
- May 2017
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio, USA
- Posts
- 531
-
May 30, 2021, 06:38 PM #15
- Join Date
- May 2017
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio, USA
- Posts
- 531
Re: Attenuators
Now things are getting much more complicated.
With a setup like this, all bets are off.
-
May 31, 2021, 11:58 AM #16
Re: Attenuators
24 dB is ludicrous gain. Does Cary have a mod to drop it to a more reasonable 12 dB?
Tom
Audio:
Amati Futura Mains
Amati Homage VOX Center,
Proac Response 1sc Rears,
Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 77
Nottingham Dais with Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation
SurfacePro 3, JRiver, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC
Video:
MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.
Lake House:
Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 80, Rega P3
OnDeck:
McIntosh MAC 4300v
-
May 31, 2021, 12:03 PM #17
-
June 6, 2021, 12:23 PM #18
Re: Attenuators
Pass recommended trying attenuators in the -10 to 12 dB range. Cary said they have a mod to reduce gain by 6 dB. I have the -10 dB Rothwell’s on order and will report back my impressions after they arrive. Coming from England, so it will be a few weeks.
Morgan
NEW SYSTEM UNDER CONSTRUCTION
-
June 7, 2021, 01:33 AM #19
Re: Attenuators
Anything inserted in the signal path has the opportunity to degrade sonics.
4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, Squeezebox, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz | TotalDAC Live PSU + D1 Twelve Mk II DAC + Mk II streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona TT | Kuzma 4 point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits | 4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Altair reference and Eris II racks | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room
-
June 7, 2021, 09:48 AM #20
- Join Date
- Mar 2019
- Posts
- 15
Re: Attenuators
@MPW sorry for being late to the thread. I have an extra pair of Rothwell XLR attenuators I can give you. My system has changed so I don’t need them anymore. Happy to help the Shark community. If you PM me your address I’ll ship them to you (from NY)
-
June 7, 2021, 10:05 AM #21
-
June 7, 2021, 10:08 AM #22
-
June 7, 2021, 10:12 AM #23
-
June 7, 2021, 01:26 PM #24
Re: Attenuators
I have both SE and XLR Rothwell's. Currently not being used but you never know when they might be needed. I keep them in my parts, cables and accessories basket.
McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Wyred 4 Sound ISO Recovery, DC Recovery | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105
“One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong”
"You can't use reason to convince anyone out of an argument that they didn't use reason to get into"
― Neil deGrasse Tyson
-
June 9, 2021, 12:38 PM #25
- Join Date
- Mar 2019
- Posts
- 139
Re: Attenuators
I use Rothwell attenuators, both balanced and unbalanced, and have nothing but good things to say about them. I use the -10dB units in the output paths to my 7.1 channels of amplification to lower the almost imperceptible level of AC hum being induced in my pre/pro in my system to below audible levels and I had to resort to this because I was never able to find and resolve the root cause of the hum in the first place. I have also used them for system balancing across the eight channels of amplification and varying speaker sensitivities in my system. I have not experienced any degradation in SQ with the XLR units connected in this manner.
As a side note, I once attempted to drop the output level of my Lumin X1 streamer via inserting attenuators at the output of the X1 while connecting it directly to the inputs of my mono front L/R amplifies. The output was definitely attenuated but the soundstage took on an almost diffuse and directionless quality that I can't understand. Yes, you could tell the sound was "stereo" but I could no longer pinpoint where the instruments were in the soundstage, etc. I suspect it may have been some unwanted interaction between the Lumin's output transformer stage and the different loading that it was presented with. Weird indeed!
I've also used attenuators from other manufacturers but prefer the build quality and the unit-to-unit attenuation accuracy of the Rothwell units.
-
June 9, 2021, 01:13 PM #26
Re: Attenuators
4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, Squeezebox, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz | TotalDAC Live PSU + D1 Twelve Mk II DAC + Mk II streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona TT | Kuzma 4 point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits | 4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Altair reference and Eris II racks | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room
-
June 9, 2021, 01:28 PM #27
- Join Date
- Mar 2019
- Posts
- 139
Re: Attenuators
True enough indeed. And, on another topic, I still have yet to be able to hear the difference between a $0.25 Buss line fuse or the $150 a "pop", no pun intended, esoteric line fuse but I know that there are those of you who can.
-
June 9, 2021, 02:17 PM #28
Re: Attenuators
What brand are you using , some will be amp and speaker load dependent ...!
-
June 9, 2021, 02:19 PM #29
-
June 9, 2021, 02:49 PM #30
- Join Date
- Mar 2019
- Posts
- 139
Re: Attenuators
One of the things I like most about the Lumin X1 is the unit's volume control capability coupled with Leedh volume processing and the ability that it affords me to bypass the AV processor completely and connect directly to the amplifiers making the connection as direct as possible. As I mentioned earlier, my system has a very low level but still objectionable amount of AC hum or ground loop noise that, for the life of me, I have been unable to isolate and resolve. The hum or ground loop appears to be caused by one or more of the HDMI connections but still it baffles me. Bypassing the AV processor completely eliminates the noise and this is why I prefer the direct connection.
-
June 9, 2021, 02:51 PM #31
- Join Date
- Mar 2019
- Posts
- 139
-
June 11, 2021, 10:13 AM #32
Re: Attenuators
True enough indeed. And, on another topic, I still have yet to be able to hear the difference between a $0.25 Buss line fuse or the $150 a "pop", no pun intended, esoteric line fuse but I know that there are those of you who can.Tom
Audio:
Amati Futura Mains
Amati Homage VOX Center,
Proac Response 1sc Rears,
Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 77
Nottingham Dais with Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation
SurfacePro 3, JRiver, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC
Video:
MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.
Lake House:
Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 80, Rega P3
OnDeck:
McIntosh MAC 4300v
-
June 11, 2021, 10:50 AM #33
- Join Date
- Mar 2019
- Posts
- 139
-
June 26, 2021, 10:12 AM #34
Re: Attenuators
The Rothwell attenuators have finally arrived from England. They are in the system now. I will report back shortly on my impressions. One thing is for sure, they definitely lower the noise floor. Dead silence with my ear at the tweeter. I know this is virtually meaningless, but just making the observation.
Morgan
NEW SYSTEM UNDER CONSTRUCTION
-
June 26, 2021, 10:19 AM #35
- Join Date
- Mar 2019
- Posts
- 139
-
July 9, 2021, 04:00 PM #36
Re: Attenuators
I have now spent quite a bit of time with the Rothwell attenuators in my system. To skip to the punch line, they are not coming out. Previously I had indicated that they significantly lowered the overall noise floor. While this was easy to discern right out of the gate, I had feared that I would lose transient impact, bass definition, soundstage size, or uncover some other sonic degradation as I did long-term listening. I did not find that to be the case at all. The attenuators allow me to operate my Cary preamp at a much higher volume setting, which really improves the sound, particularly at lower volumes. I did try the attenuators in the signal path of my Marantz CD player/DAC. There was a lot missing in this configuration. It was very easy to hear and was not positive in any way. I settled on having them immediately in front of the amp. After settling on the placement of the attenuators and confirming their efficacy, I did a little tweaking of speaker placement, and the combination of these two changes has left me very satisfied. I occasionally multi-task (read, putz on the internet, etc.) while listening. I have found that much more difficult to do after these changes. I am just too engaged in the music to do anything else but listen. The musical engagement factor is very high!
Morgan
NEW SYSTEM UNDER CONSTRUCTION
-
July 10, 2021, 07:50 AM #37
- Join Date
- Mar 2019
- Posts
- 139
Re: Attenuators
Good to hear! I am assuming you got the XLR balanced version of the attenuators because they are non directional and can be placed at either the output of the preamp or the input of the power amp. The RCA unbalanced version of his attenuators, however, are directional and should be placed where they were designed to be placed. He has a version of the unbalanced that can go on the output of a device or the input of a device.
-
July 10, 2021, 09:31 AM #38
-
July 10, 2021, 09:40 AM #39
- Join Date
- Mar 2019
- Posts
- 139
Re: Attenuators
Also, FWIW, there is a stocking dealer in the US in North Carolina called brit audio dot com for those of us who live here. He also has an eBay presence as well.
AudioShark - The Best High End Audio Discussion forum.
AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.
We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!
Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
Sincerely,
The Audioshark.org Team
AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.
We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!
Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
Sincerely,
The Audioshark.org Team
After 1 year of tremendous enjoyment with my new gear, I have been so lucky to audition a Gryphon Antileon EVO. Being dazzled by the sheer control through unlimited power and resulting vividness and...
Upgrade on the way...