Thread: Amps for Raidho D3's

Originally Posted by Mike

Thanks Wizard!! What amp was that?

Shindo Apetite.









Sorry, I couldn't resist!

Originally Posted by NorthStar

And only 25 for damping factor, wow!

Just keep in mind 25 is probably great for 99.9999999% of the speakers out there. I'm trying to find an amp for the .00000001%!

I have Crown pro amps Macro 1200 and macro 2400, and both have 1000 damping factor and a must to have control of the woofers and not to move much to avoid friction, as friction heats up coil and bye bye woofers. And yes bass that seats you down. Does it mean that has a heck of a sound, well for pro sound it does. So for HiFi maybe is not as important.

Originally Posted by Mike

Just keep in mind 25 is probably great for 99.9999999% of the speakers out there. I'm trying to find an amp for the .00000001%!

Mike,
You will find it, i'm sure is out there

I've heard the Raidho C4 with Goldmund Telos 390.5.

The Goldmund have no control of the C4, it was a bad sounding demo.
One could clearly heard that the amp have problems with the big C4 speakers.

One can understand why - the Goldmund amp has only 8V of slew rate and 87 of damping factor at 1 kHz/4 ohm.

Would this spec work??

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
POWER AMPLIFIER
PARAMETER MIN TYPICAL MAX UNITS CONDITIONS
POWER OUTPUT 1000 Watts 20-20K Hz into 8 Ohms
900 Watts 20-20K Hz into 4 Ohms
SENSITIVITY 1.0 Vrmsin for 100 Wattsout into 8Ω, 29dB gain selected
2.0 Vrmsin for 100 Wattsout into 8Ω, 23dB gain selected
2.46 Vrmsin for 600 Wattsout into 8Ω, 29dB gain selected
4.92 Vrmsin for 600 Wattsout into 8Ω, 23dB gain selected
3.0 Vrmsin for 900 Wattsout into 8Ω, 29dB gain selected
6.0 Vrmsin for 900 Wattsout into 8Ω, 23dB gain selected
INPUT IMPEDANCE 15K Ohms balanced input (XLR)
16K5 Ohms single ended input (RCA)
THD+N .005 % 20Hz to 20KHz at 600 Watts into 8Ω
.007 % 20Hz to 20KHz at 900 Watts into 4Ω
NOISE 110 dB Input shorted, 20Hz to 20KHz, gain set to 29dB
113 dB Input shorted, 20Hz to 20KHz, gain set to 23dB
SLEW RATE 60 V/µsec
POWER BANDWIDTH <1 >100K Hz
DAMPING FACTOR 300 at 20Hz, ref 8Ω
WEIGHT 36.4 (80) Kg (lbs) including box and packing (i.e. shipping weight)
POWER CONSUMPTION 215 Watts at idle
1486 at 1000 Wattsout into 8Ω
2640 at 1300 Wattsout (at onset of clipping) into 8Ω
HEAT DISSIPATION 733 BTU/hr at idle
1658 at 1000 Wattsout output into 8Ω
4572 at 1300 Wattsout (at onset of clipping) output into 8Ω

Originally Posted by iamhifi

I have Crown pro amps Macro 1200 and macro 2400, and both have 1000 damping factor and a must to have control of the woofers and not to move much to avoid friction, as friction heats up coil and bye bye woofers. And yes bass that seats you down. Does it mean that has a heck of a sound, well for pro sound it does. So for HiFi maybe is not as important.

That's what I always thought. And 50 (damping factor) would be the very strict minimum (for both 8 and 4 Ohm loads).
Heck, 100 for me is the bare minimum! ...And all across the entire audio spectrum range (20 to 20).

But! Some people look for some' different I guess.

Looks like a Bryston 28BSST2, , I think so.....

Originally Posted by Dewster

Would this spec work??

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
POWER AMPLIFIER
PARAMETER MIN TYPICAL MAX UNITS CONDITIONS
POWER OUTPUT 1000 Watts 20-20K Hz into 8 Ohms
900 Watts 20-20K Hz into 4 Ohms
SENSITIVITY 1.0 Vrmsin for 100 Wattsout into 8Ω, 29dB gain selected
2.0 Vrmsin for 100 Wattsout into 8Ω, 23dB gain selected
2.46 Vrmsin for 600 Wattsout into 8Ω, 29dB gain selected
4.92 Vrmsin for 600 Wattsout into 8Ω, 23dB gain selected
3.0 Vrmsin for 900 Wattsout into 8Ω, 29dB gain selected
6.0 Vrmsin for 900 Wattsout into 8Ω, 23dB gain selected
INPUT IMPEDANCE 15K Ohms balanced input (XLR)
16K5 Ohms single ended input (RCA)
THD+N .005 % 20Hz to 20KHz at 600 Watts into 8Ω
.007 % 20Hz to 20KHz at 900 Watts into 4Ω
NOISE 110 dB Input shorted, 20Hz to 20KHz, gain set to 29dB
113 dB Input shorted, 20Hz to 20KHz, gain set to 23dB
SLEW RATE 60 V/µsec
POWER BANDWIDTH <1 >100K Hz
DAMPING FACTOR 300 at 20Hz, ref 8Ω
WEIGHT 36.4 (80) Kg (lbs) including box and packing (i.e. shipping weight)
POWER CONSUMPTION 215 Watts at idle
1486 at 1000 Wattsout into 8Ω
2640 at 1300 Wattsout (at onset of clipping) into 8Ω
HEAT DISSIPATION 733 BTU/hr at idle
1658 at 1000 Wattsout output into 8Ω
4572 at 1300 Wattsout (at onset of clipping) output into 8Ω

More amps - Damping factor 20Hz-20kHz/ 8 ohm
Measured by Stereophile.

Krell Evo 600e - 65
Plinius Ref - 35-31
Ayre MX-R - 35-32
Pass XA 30,5 - 100-80
Lamm M1,2 - 53-40
Bryston 28B SST2 - 133-62
D'Agostino Mono - 38-35

Originally Posted by joeinid

Looks like a Bryston 28BSST2, , I think so.....

Originally Posted by Dewster

Ha! I knew it. Mike would say no but I really think the 28's would sound great. Especially on D2's Sure D3's would be a little tougher. I would live with it before you get rid of the 28's. You might be surprised. My Dartzeel is wonderful on my Studio2 and everyone except Mark said it would not work. Smartypants.

Wizard - any idea of the specs on the Jeff Rowland gear? They seem to pair Jeff Rowland and Raidho in North America for demos quite a bit. The printed specs just say "greater than 200" - which is still good given the relative specs of the others listed.



From Stereophile:

"I thought the Raidho D-1 loudspeaker ($28,000/pair, including stands), was among the most interesting and musically impressive new products at SSI. Raidho, a Danish company known for their work with ultra-lightweight ceramics, has developed a process for bonding to their speaker diaphragms a thin coat of industrial diamond, conferring even greater stiffness and freedom from unwanted resonances. Paired with a Jeff Rowland Aeris D/A converter and Jeff Rowland 625 power amplifier, the Raidhos were impressive on a variety of material. We’ve all heard demonstrations where we came away saying, “I can’t believe they got so much bass out of such little loudspeakers,” but in terms of the sheer quality and scale of that bass, the Raidho/Rowland combination was on another plane altogether."

Mcintosh 2301 Ha Ha!

Originally Posted by iamhifi

Mcintosh 2301 Ha Ha!

Too funny.

Originally Posted by iamhifi

Mcintosh 2301 Ha Ha!

I loved those amps. Of all the gear I have had in and out of my system, those amps I miss the most.

But as a pairing with Raidho - no.

I spoke to Lars this morning for almost an hour. He was listening to my speakers and testing them at that moment (exciting!). We discussed everything from isolation to power to amplification to cables. I had to go lay down and take a nap after the conversation. My brain was hurting.

Originally Posted by Mike

Wizard - any idea of the specs on the Jeff Rowland gear? They seem to pair Jeff Rowland and Raidho in North America for demos quite a bit. The printed specs just say "greater than 200" - which is still good given the relative specs of the others listed.



From Stereophile:

"I thought the Raidho D-1 loudspeaker ($28,000/pair, including stands), was among the most interesting and musically impressive new products at SSI. Raidho, a Danish company known for their work with ultra-lightweight ceramics, has developed a process for bonding to their speaker diaphragms a thin coat of industrial diamond, conferring even greater stiffness and freedom from unwanted resonances. Paired with a Jeff Rowland Aeris D/A converter and Jeff Rowland 625 power amplifier, the Raidhos were impressive on a variety of material. We’ve all heard demonstrations where we came away saying, “I can’t believe they got so much bass out of such little loudspeakers,” but in terms of the sheer quality and scale of that bass, the Raidho/Rowland combination was on another plane altogether."

The older Rowland amps printed specs say "greater than 300" - 20-20 /8ohm.
When Stereophile measured the "greater than 300" damping factor was at 20 Hz and 1 kHz - 320.
At 20 kHz it fall down to 23.

Slew rate on the older amps was 30V.
A little slow.

On 825 and 925 the specs say "greater than 1000" at 1 kHz.
This is the same as the older 312.

Originally Posted by wizard

The older Rowland amps printed specs say "greater than 300" - 20-20 /8ohm.
When Stereophile measured the "greater than 300" damping factor was at 20 Hz and 1 kHz - 320.
At 20 kHz it fall down to 23.

Slew rate on the older amps was 30V.
A little slow.

On 825 and 925 the specs say "greater than 1000" at 1 kHz.
This is the same as the older 312.

The older Rowland amps were never the model of speed, but they did have relatively high current output. My 8TiHC puts out 50amps continuous, 100 peak. The 625/725 amps peak around 50amps I believe. Not sure what the 825 and 925 put out current wise.

very cool

does that mean he will be shipping them out this week. Is he sending you pics?

Originally Posted by Mike

I loved those amps. Of all the gear I have had in and out of my system, those amps I miss the most.

But as a pairing with Raidho - no.

I spoke to Lars this morning for almost an hour. He was listening to my speakers and testing them at that moment (exciting!). We discussed everything from isolation to power to amplification to cables. I had to go lay down and take a nap after the conversation. My brain was hurting.

1736601864_g.jpg

Pictured is the €45000 German Horch Power Stage - this is a newer version of Dynaudio Arbiter.
One of my friends drives the very difficult Dynaudio Evidence Master with them.

Power output is 480 watt in 8 ohm, Slew rate of 100V, output current of 120A and two damping factor choices - 1500 or 50.

My friend damping factor favorite is 50, 1500 not sounding so good.

Originally Posted by the professor

very cool

does that mean he will be shipping them out this week. Is he sending you pics?

He said, "I will test them for another 24 hours, then tomorrow, box them up and ship them off." I'll email him and ask for pictures.

Mike

Originally Posted by Mike

He said, "I will test them for another 24 hours, then tomorrow, box them up and ship them off." I'll email him and ask for pictures.

Mike

Exciting stuff, Mike....hopefully Lars was able to help with your decision on amps, as I'm sure it would be sad to have your speakers powerless in your house.

Originally Posted by Mike

He said, "I will test them for another 24 hours, then tomorrow, box them up and ship them off." I'll email him and ask for pictures.

Mike

Originally Posted by wizard

1736601864_g.jpg

Pictured is the €45000 German Horch Power Stage - this is a newer version of Dynaudio Arbiter.
One of my friends drives the very difficult Dynaudio Evidence Master with them.

Power output is 480 watt in 8 ohm, Slew rate of 100V, output current of 120A and two damping factor choices - 1500 or 50.

My friend damping factor favorite is 50, 1500 not sounding so good.

Thanks Wizard. I'll check it out.

Originally Posted by SFete

Exciting stuff, Mike....hopefully Lars was able to help with your decision on amps, as I'm sure it would be sad to have your speakers powerless in your house.

He did.

He said, "1. Soulution. 2. Jeff Rowland. 3. Sim" All depends on budget." Of course, we discussed lots of other great choices/options...but these are the top three we kept coming back to.

Originally Posted by Mike

He did.

He said, "1. Soulution. 2. Jeff Rowland. 3. Sim" All depends on budget." Of course, we discussed lots of other great choices/options...but these are the top three we kept coming back to.

Very cool, Mike. It sounds like he was able to confirm what much of your hard work and thorough research was able to find. That Soulution stuff looks mighty fine, both on paper and aesthetically.

Originally Posted by SFete

Very cool, Mike. It sounds like he was able to confirm what much of your hard work and thorough research was able to find. That Soulution stuff looks mighty fine, both on paper and aesthetically.

Thanks Sean. I was a little concerned about it's limited power, but he assured me he has heard the Soulution 501's driving D3's and it was "magnificent....one of the most dynamic systems in the world....while still sounding very musical."

Originally Posted by Mike

Thanks Sean. I was a little concerned about it's limited power, but he assured me he has heard the Soulution 501's driving D3's and it was "magnificent....one of the most dynamic systems in the world....while still sounding very musical."

That is even better he was able to comment on that. I know you were saying that controlling the woofers is one of the biggest priorities. Looks like this combo is one you surely have to take seriously.....this is getting very exciting.

Originally Posted by SFete

That is even better he was able to comment on that. I know you were saying that controlling the woofers is one of the biggest priorities. Looks like this combo is one you surely have to take seriously.....this is getting very exciting.

I know! Thanks Sean!! Admittedly, my favorite amp that I've ever heard is the D'Agostino monos. Nothing comes close IMO. I'm hoping its amazing on the D3's. But if not....I have a backup plan (Soulution).

Originally Posted by Mike

I know! Thanks Sean!! Admittedly, my favorite amp that I've ever heard is the D'Agostino monos. Nothing comes close IMO. I'm hoping its amazing on the D3's. But if not....I have a backup plan (Soulution).

It all sounds golden to me! Looking forward to highly anticipated deliveries.

I need to find some Soulution to listen to.

Exciting stuff Mike.

The Rowland amps sound terrific and are beauties. But, I have never done a comparo of the options you are considering.

Mike, you seem on top of things and remember:
1) Formulate a plan
2) Execute that plan
3) And if plan doesn't work, Change that plan!

"The truth changes"

Nick

Originally Posted by veindoc

Mike, you seem on top of things and remember:
1) Formulate a plan
2) Execute that plan
3) And if plan doesn't work, Change that plan!

"The truth changes"

Nick

I'm the Audiophile Buddist.....no attachment to gear!

That being said, I am taking a page out of your book. Audition, audition, audition.

Next up - a big demo of TADS in Orlando. Then on RMAF.

What I have found is that it is so important to weed out what you aren't fond of and keep copious notes.

Next up....room improvements, power improvements, cable improvements. The foundation.

Auditions in the long run will provide best chance for satisfaction. My guess is r friends from Switzerland will win this battle but I am excited to c who prevails. I know Thor loves nordost cables and conditioners.

Nick

Originally Posted by veindoc

Auditions in the long run will provide best chance for satisfaction. My guess is r friends from Switzerland will win this battle but I am excited to c who prevails. I know Thor loves nordost cables and conditioners.

Nick

I think you're right.

Originally Posted by Mike

I'm the Audiophile Buddist.....no attachment to gear!

That being said, I am taking a page out of your book. Audition, audition, audition.

Next up - a big demo of TADS in Orlando. Then on RMAF.

What I have found is that it is so important to weed out what you aren't fond of and keep copious notes.

Next up....room improvements, power improvements, cable improvements. The foundation.

Mike, when/where are you auditioning the Tads in Orlando? I'm in Disneyworld with the fam now, last full day tomorrow (tues). If you're available tomorrow, I'll try to get away for 1/2 day or so.

In either case, I look forward to what you think of the TADs. They are the speaker to beat IMO.

Originally Posted by socfan12

Mike, when/where are you auditioning the Tads in Orlando? I'm in Disneyworld with the fam now, last full day tomorrow (tues). If you're available tomorrow, I'll try to get away for 1/2 day or so.

In either case, I look forward to what you think of the TADs. They are the speaker to beat IMO.

+1 and

Originally Posted by veindoc

Auditions in the long run will provide best chance for satisfaction. My guess is r friends from Switzerland will win this battle but I am excited to c who prevails. I know Thor loves nordost cables and conditioners.

Nick

I totally agree Nick. But I'm finding it's harder to audition gear I'd like to try without traveling a good many hours, and then, only one or two pieces at best. In home auditions are even more difficult. Sigh.

Hi Guys,


I am new to this forum and have read this thread with some interest – and some concern.


I have been an owner of Raidho speakers for the past six years, initially the C-Series and more latterly the D-Series.


I would like to share some experience and facts – as I best understand them – about Raidho speakers and their amplification needs.


First up, Raidho speakers do not need hundreds of watts of power or damping factors into the thousands to sound their best. In fact, Raidho claim that their speakers are relatively easy to drive with impedance that does not dip much below 5 ohm. For this reason, Raidho advertise on their website the speakers to be tube friendly – but more on that later.


I have heard Raidho speakers sounding absolutely superb with a $3000 Sim Audio (Moon) integrated amplifier and that opinion was formed after passing several Kraftwerk tracks through them!


Further, I’ve read in this thread that “damping factor” is being used to explain subjective differences in woofer control. Some caution needs to be taken in walking that path because all damping represents is a ratio of impedances. But that is not the only factor involved. Global feedback includes the speaker in the feedback loop and so global feedback has a very large effect on the damping factor. It is the use of feedback that causes some switch mode amps to have insanely high damping factors. Further, it is generally acknowledged that you quickly reach a point of diminishing returns and that damping factors greater than about 30 will have little practical effect. In any case, this is usually a moot point because most speakers use passive crossovers that ruin the damping factor.


So that naturally leads to the question – if damping factor is largely specsmanship, why do we hear differences with different amplifiers bolted to the Raidhos? One possible answer and certainly my preferred one having employed Raidho speakers for the past six years – is that it comes down to the quality of amplifier design, in particular, the inclusion of an extremely robust (stiff) power supply which is capable of maintaining voltage even when output transistors are demanding large amounts of current. Since it is current that ultimately drives the cones in your loudspeakers back in forth it is actually the amplifiers power supply design, not some lofty and frequently misrepresented wattage moniker, which underpins perceptions of sound quality.


Other than Sim Audio (Canada), I have had great results using amplifiers from Gryphon Audio (Denmark) and surprisingly the relatively low cost Sanders Sound Systems (USA) Magtech and the extra-ordinarily low cost as in <US$500 integrated from NAD Electronics (Canada) . The common thread here is not the purchase price or the power output or the damping factor – but the well-designed power supplies sections with heavy metal transformers.


Circling back to tube amplification, I must say that so far I have not – despite Raidho’s public statement otherwise – had good results driving Raidho’s with tubes. My otherwise much loved Cary Audio (USA) 120 Watt (ultra linear) / 60 Watt (triode) power amplifier failed miserably. The only exception to this was a dealer system using a VTL (USA) S-400, a 100KG 400 Watt (into 4 ohm, tetrode mode) beast. Damping factor of 4 be damned – sonically, that hit the ball clean out of the stadium.

Hi Kiwi - welcome! Thanks for your comments. Very interesting reading. Have you had any experience with D'Agostino amps on Raidho D series speakers?

Agreed. Very interesting read Kiwi. Glad you're with us.

Originally Posted by mdkim

Agreed. Very interesting read Kiwi. Glad you're with us.

+1

Thank you so much!

I have just read this whole thread , Wizard and Kiwi were right on with their posts.
Read between the lines and what do you see, a common reference to "current" !!
I was wondering when somebody was going to mention this.

I know they might not be a glamorous name, but you already own amps that are going to sound superb with the D3's.

Mark - good point. I think its safe to say that current, damping factor, etc. are all part of it.

At the end of the day, regardless of damping factor, current, watts per channel, etc. - the amp(s) have to have tremendous bass control IMO....often, but not always (as in the case of Class-D), this does come from high current. I have wondered about Class A amps - which are high current, but generally, don't have tremendous bass control. Same for some other high current amps I recently heard.

So I think its safe to say, we can't just assume high current means great bass control. Would everyone agree? The Classe's did exhibit good bass control. The DS450M's were slightly better - but sounded a little unnatural on the D1's. The REF250's were ineffective.

In my conversations with Lars, he told me stories of mismatches between C4.1's and customers various amps which resulted in a boomy, bloated, undefined bass. Cabling, isolation, room correction, etc. can only do so much to curb this challenge.

I just have to continue to listen, listen, listen. I wonder about Class A Vitus on Raidho....not sure I would ever get to hear that combo.

I like what I hear with Soulution and D'Agostino. Although, admittedly, I was so overwhelmed by the sheer liquidity and musicality of the D'Agostino amps, I was completely awash with emotion to pay proper attention to just the bass! With the Soulution, I hear more of the music. It has this uncanny ability to sort everything out with no blurring, smudging, muddying whatsoever. Crystal clear. And absolutely the best bass control I've heard - yet. However, I can't think of two amps that are more opposite - but yet both were incredibly pleasing - but for different reasons. Its almost like a heart vs head battle! Other than those two (and maybe the Vitus), everything else I've listened to, seemed like more or less, the same or a slight variation of the same - and truthfully, the Classe's remain right up there with many of these - and exceeded many of them too.

Tidal Presencio stereo or monoblocks
TIDAL - finest high end amplifiers. Handmade in Germany.
They even have a special module for active bass control. Check out the size of transformers and current. Plus these are absoulutely beautiful. Dealer in in Philly-TheVoicethatis-BTW he is also a Vitus dealer and may have good info on their Class A Vitus amps.
regards,
Nick

Originally Posted by rded

Wow! This thread has exploded since I last checked in...

I discussed your situation with Tyler at Nextlevel AV as he carries Raidho, Dynaudio, Naim, Burmester and Soulution. He recommends Soulution the 501s or the new 711 Stereo amp. As far as tubes are concered, I would suggest Octave Audio from Germany. They are a high current design amp.

As far as D1s vs D3s, I heard them in different rooms with different electronics...I would have to say that the biggest difference is slam and dynamics which obviously goes to the D3.

Tyler at Nextlevel AV is awesome!

Originally Posted by wizard

The older Rowland amps printed specs say "greater than 300" - 20-20 /8ohm.
When Stereophile measured the "greater than 300" damping factor was at 20 Hz and 1 kHz - 320.
At 20 kHz it fall down to 23.

Slew rate on the older amps was 30V.
A little slow.

On 825 and 925 the specs say "greater than 1000" at 1 kHz.
This is the same as the older 312.

825 and 925 will use I think the Pascal M-Pro2 UMAC Class D module.
Damping factor is 1000 at 20 Hz and 1 kHz, but only 80 at 20 kHz.