Thread: Amps for Raidho D3's

Originally Posted by Anatta

Between these options I'd go with the Soulution combo, but before you drop a bucket of cash on them I really think you should try the Audionet amps from Germany. They are designed as the Soulutions to be very low distortion, high speed, high damping factor (10000). The MAX monos are a much better deal at $26k/pair and sound just as good IMO, not to mention they're more powerful than the 501s.

What I don't like about Soulution is the ripoff prices they charge now for their products. In 2005, when the brand was unknown, a 710 cost was 18k Euros in Germany, with inflation it should be now about 21k Euros, but it goes for 37k Euros; 16k added just because it got good reviews and became an established high end brand. I hate it when a manufacturer does this. The US prices are worse still.

Mike...the Raidho dealer in Boston (Blink High End) carries three brands: Raidho, AudioNet, and Nordost. I have not heard of AudioNet but clearly the dealer here thinks Raidho and AudioNet is a good combo. Something to look into just like Anatta points out.

Originally Posted by BlueMcIntosh

I heard the Raidho goes well with Tenor Audio 175S

Talk about a gorgeous looking amp!

Originally Posted by rded

I have heard D3s with Burmester 911s. It was magnificent!! That Burmester stack/D3s made my system sound broken!

Also heard D1s with T+A PA 3000 HV! That was really nice, smooth and articulate as well.

Welcome! Thanks for your comments. Can you compare the sound difference of the D3's vs D1's?

As for amps, I could spend years looking!

I'm kind of leaning toward Soulution 501/520.

I think you should go with the Soulution 501/520. That way we can compare the Dag v Soulution properly with in home senarios even if they are 1,000 miles apart.

Btw - they are in customs as I write.

OMG! OMG!

Congratulations. One step closer.

Originally Posted by the professor

I think you should go with the Soulution 501/520. That way we can compare the Dag v Soulution properly with in home senarios even if they are 1,000 miles apart.

Btw - they are in customs as I write.

That's great! Next week! Fingers crossed!!

I know I can borrow a pair of Dag monos to compare side by side to a friends 710.

Have fun Mike. Looks like you are making some progress. Excited to know your pick for amp.

Cyril - The dampening factor even on the Krell 600e is just 270. The A65 I have is 400 and the A200's are 1000. Most amps are below 300. I don't know how Soulution achieved 10000, that's crazy. Apparently, the technology used in their amps is unlike any other AB amp. They must be way ahead of everyone on the technology side. A bunch of new stuff never used before.

Originally Posted by Mike

Thanks! I am also considering Raidho's new line of cables called Ansuz.

Hello Mike, so you are closer to amp selection, are you going to try your ARC gear with the D3. As for cables I think the D3 is wire with Odin and the Vahalla 2 is closer to the Odin so could be the way to go. Keep us posted.

Originally Posted by iamhifi

Hello Mike, so you are closer to amp selection, are you going to try your ARC gear with the D3. As for cables I think the D3 is wire with Odin and the Vahalla 2 is closer to the Odin so could be the way to go. Keep us posted.

I tried my ARC gear with the D1's. It was not a fit.

Damping factor specs: All measured at 1 kHz.

Vitus RI-100 - 20
D'Agostino Mono - 55
Classe M400 - 100
Soulution 501 - 4000
Soulution 710 - 5600, at 100Hz 6900 and 10kHz 12500
FMA 711 II - 400
Burmester 909/911 - 2750

Originally Posted by wizard

Damping factor specs: All measured at 1 kHz.

Vitus RI-100 - 20
D'Agostino Mono - 55
Classe M400 - 100
Soulution 501 - 4000
Soulution 710 - 5500, at 100Hz 6900 and 10kHz 12500
FMA 711 II - 400

Thanks Wizard! Do you have any thoughts....suggestions for amps for the D3's?

Hi Mike

I see you ARC ref10 and 250's are up for sale.

Have you decided on the amps yet?

Originally Posted by XV-1

Hi Mike

I see you ARC ref10 and 250's are up for sale.

Have you decided on the amps yet?

If I had to pick right now......Soulution 501/520.

Originally Posted by Chr. R.

Viola Audio Laboratories Symphony - 513
Crown Studio Reference I and II - >20.000 from 10 Hz to 400 Hz

I had the lower powered Crown Studio Reference amp (forget which model). Actually back in the day is was not that bad. Thanks for the info.

Viola Bravo II damping factor 700
Slew rate - 35V same like Vitus. Not in the hyper-fast class Soulution 710 - 200V.

A review - http://www.violalabs.com/sites/defau...view_bravo.pdf

Originally Posted by Chr. R.

Crown Studio Reference II (just like the one I own).



Sorry - it's bad, except at the bottom where it is among the best even today!

Thank goodness I didn't know any better then. I used it for a brief time on Apogee Duetta II's and it made them sit up and beg. Thanks for the memories.

Originally Posted by wizard

Viola Bravo II damping factor 700
Slew rate - 35V same like Vitus. Not in the hyper-fast class Soulution 710 - 200V.

A review - http://www.violalabs.com/sites/defau...view_bravo.pdf

Thanks for this, wizard.

Does anyone know the current output of the Symphony or the Bravo, continuous or peak? Their website is a little thin on specs like these.

Bravo output current - 44A peak, output voltage - 50V in 4 ohm.

Symphony output voltage - 40V in 4 ohm.
Slew rate - 38V up and 18V down.
Damping factor at 100Hz/1kHz/10kHz - 518/513/284

Mike, you haven't mentioned Pass in your line-up of amps. Are you not considering them or have you listened and haven't been impressed. By not impressed I mean with how they work with the speakers you've been auditioning, not a general overall statement.

Originally Posted by dlb2

Mike, you haven't mentioned Pass in your line-up of amps. Are you not considering them or have you listened and haven't been impressed. By not impressed I mean with how they work with the speakers you've been auditioning, not a general overall statement.

+1 for Pass Labs just love the way they sound.

Originally Posted by dlb2

Mike, you haven't mentioned Pass in your line-up of amps. Are you not considering them or have you listened and haven't been impressed. By not impressed I mean with how they work with the speakers you've been auditioning, not a general overall statement.

Doug - that's a great question. My audition of the D'Agostino monos reminded me of some of the fine qualities of Pass amps - liquidity, smooth top end, and just this incredible "flow" to the music. The D'Agostino amps had slightly better over bass control and slam than my Pass amps, and may have been even a little sweeter on top....but the Pass trumps them in midrange bloom and presentation.

Given that one amp is $55,000 and the other in the $20,000 range - the Pass is definitely the better value. Oh, and both get hot as hell....so there is no winner in that category.

Now, as for Pass for Raidho, I cannot emphasize enough the "out of box" thinking these speakers require. Prior to purchasing my little Raidho D1's, I did a lot of research and spoke to a lot of very knowledgable people (Jon - VT Skier being one of them). Jon has heard more speakers in the past two years than anyone I know. He has been extremely helpful. I also emailed and spoke with Lars from Raidho. John from Audio Salon was also very helpful. Angie at Angie's audio too. I then read everything I could on the Raidho C and D series.

Some of the things I was told, I didn't understand or didn't want to believe. Things like "get control of the bass, and the rest will take care of itself" or "tubes and Raidho don't mix".

It wasn't until I got my D1's home, setup, tried them in two different rooms, in various setup positions and with my ARC REF 250's, ARC DS 450 M's and Classe CAM600's, that I fully understood what people meant.

We are so used to an amp having a profound impact on high's and mid's and bass. But with the Raidho's, the mids and highs sounded almost the same - regardless of which amp I used on them (and preamp). They have a dominant tweeter (in the dominant/recessive gene sense). But that tweeters dominance is something you want. Trust me! However, what affected their sound the most - was the amp with the best bass control. There were only subtle differences in the midrange/highs with the various amps. But there was substantial differences in bass control, slam and the depths to which bass notes plumbed when I worked through the various amps.

Trust me - I'm not considering Soulution because it represents any great "value" or some great watts-per-channel calculation. LMAO! But, I have heard Soulution amps and loved what they did in the bass department. Iron fisted grip. Seemingly going lower. Better bass definition. But truthfully, it wasn't until Cyril provided me with the dampening factor (thank you Cyril) - that what I heard now made sense.

So, to answer your question, I love Pass amps and for 99.999999% of the speakers out there, they are excellent. I'm just not sure how they would sound on Raidho speakers. They might be excellent. Jeff Rowland 725 amps don't have a particularly high dampening factor, but they are always used to demo Raidho speakers. Same for D'Agostino monos (my audition on Wednesday is still haunting me.) I've heard no other amp which can invoke such emotion. Let me tell you, my head is fighting my heart (Soulution vs D'Agostino).

I would just like to add that everyone - everyone - needs to get out and listen. What I may like, you may not and visa-versa. There is no "one size fits all" in audio. My friends from the local audiophile club tell me to this day, "Michael, the best system you've ever owned is the Strad/Pass setup".

I feel that of late, I have let my guard down. I used to always go and listen before buying. But, I became complacent. Lazy. Trusting reviews. Trusting others - when I should only trust myself. My trip to Phoenix in May, my week long listening ventures in Toronto a few weeks back, my trip to Miami and my upcoming trip to RMAF are all overdue listening sessions to formulate new reference points. I realize that multiple listening sessions, in different rooms, with difference gear is ultimately needed to form conclusions one way or another - but I at least now have a much better understanding of some of the latest gear: Strumento, Vitus, Soulution, D'Agostino, Accuphase, Levinson, Constellation, MBL, Focal, Raidho, Wilson, Burmester, DCS, Linn, Boulder, Magico, Vandersteen, Joseph Audio, Vienna Acoustics, Basis, Ayre, Esoteric and countless others are now all in the memory banks as reference points for what I like, and more importantly, what I didn't care for.

I've learned of late, things I thought I would like - I didn't. And things I didn't think I would care for, I loved.

Let me leave you with this last thought. It's not what reviewers say that's important, it's what they don't say.

Thanks Mike, excellent post!

well said Mike. Even if funds r not a limiting factor, hearing for yourself, taking what you know sounds really good on your music should help prioritize who is in the running. The next most obvious stage is taking the finalists to your home system. AS nice as notes and reference points r at shows or stores, more value really comes from hearing the stuff at your home. If at all possible, having them there at the same week, will truly give the most true relative level of which is most appealing to your ears. Lastly, if your heart and ego, can handle it, get a friend to play them back to back, without you knowing and score them. As I am a scientist, I am suggesting trying a blinded evaluation. Lastly, just like movies, critics are so frikkin subjective, while music and its reproduction r so personable that what u hear is most tandamount. Best of luck,
Nick

Originally Posted by veindoc

well said Mike. Even if funds r not a limiting factor, hearing for yourself, taking what you know sounds really good on your music should help prioritize who is in the running. The next most obvious stage is taking the finalists to your home system. AS nice as notes and reference points r at shows or stores, more value really comes from hearing the stuff at your home. If at all possible, having them there at the same week, will truly give the most true relative level of which is most appealing to your ears. Lastly, if your heart and ego, can handle it, get a friend to play them back to back, without you knowing and score them. As I am a scientist, I am suggesting trying a blinded evaluation. Lastly, just like movies, critics are so frikkin subjective, while music and its reproduction r so personable that what u hear is most tandamount. Best of luck,
Nick

Good points. In an ideal world...yes!

Originally Posted by Mike

Cyril - The dampening factor even on the Krell 600e is just 270. The A65 I have is 400 and the A200's are 1000. Most amps are below 300. I don't know how Soulution achieved 10000, that's crazy. Apparently, the technology used in their amps is unlike any other AB amp. They must be way ahead of everyone on the technology side. A bunch of new stuff never used before.

Whoa whoa whoa stop the clock!

A touch off topic but did I miss your getting Accuphase into one of your systems?! I loved the A200s. If they had a bit more power (or I had more efficient speakers) I may have them right now.

Originally Posted by mdkim

Whoa whoa whoa stop the clock!

A touch off topic but did I miss your getting Accuphase into one of your systems?! I loved the A200s. If they had a bit more power (or I had more efficient speakers) I may have them right now.

Just a demo!

Amazing sound and build quality.

Originally Posted by wizard

Damping factor specs: All measured at 1 kHz.

Vitus RI-100 - 20
D'Agostino Mono - 55
Classe M400 - 100
Soulution 501 - 4000
Soulution 710 - 5600, at 100Hz 6900 and 10kHz 12500
FMA 711 II - 400
Burmester 909/911 - 2750

Gryphon

Diablo - 380
Atilla - 55

Pass Xs

Damping factor and output current peak
Xs 300 - 50 and 50A
Xs 150 - 50 and 30A

Accuphase A-46 - 67 in 4 ohm.

The A-46 brochure says 500, a big difference from the spec above which is from a review.

P-6100 - 445 in 4 ohm. (brochure - 500)


Damping factor - http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/amplifie...ng-factor.html

Originally Posted by wizard

Bravo output current - 44A peak, output voltage - 50V in 4 ohm.

Symphony output voltage - 40V in 4 ohm.
Slew rate - 38V up and 18V down.
Damping factor at 100Hz/1kHz/10kHz - 518/513/284

Originally Posted by wizard

Gryphon

Diablo - 380
Atilla - 55

Originally Posted by wizard

Pass Xs

Damping factor and output current peak
Xs 300 - 50 and 50A
Xs 150 - 50 and 30A

Originally Posted by wizard

Accuphase A-46 - 67 in 4 ohm.

The A-46 brochure says 500, a big difference from the spec above which is from a review.

P-6100 - 445 in 4 ohm. (brochure - 500)


Damping factor - Damping factor

wizard, thanks for these. I've missed your informative posts and beautiful photos!

Originally Posted by dlb2

Thanks Mike, excellent post!

+1 - great post, Mike!

Originally Posted by wizard

Gryphon

Diablo - 380
Atilla - 55

Good info Wizard

What is a damping factor and do I need one?
Posted by Fynn Callum on June 26, 2013

If you have a loudspeaker and an amplifier connected together, you already have a damping factor and it’s been getting on doing it’s thing, but what is a damping factor and how can it determine your setup?
Springy speakers
When your amplifier sends a signal to your loudspeaker to make some noise, the speaker cone moves and pushes some air around to make a sound. Unfortunately, that’s not the end of it. After the speaker cone is forced away from its rest position it’s going to want to get back there, but it has momentum, so it overshoots on the other side. Near its resonant frequency, all this wobbling around can become quite pronounced.
This can often lead to ‘smearing’ of bass notes, as the speaker keeps moving around after the amplifier has told it to. To prevent this woolly softness and keep the bass ‘punchy’, this cone movement needs to be ‘damped’. The mechanical resistance of the speaker will take care of some of that, but can more be done?

So what is a damping factor?
Yes, there is more that can be done. If you think about it, there isn’t much difference between a loudspeaker and a dynamic microphone. So, when the speaker is moving, it’s also generating an electrical signal that heads back up to the amplifier in the same way that the diaphragm of a dynamic mic moves and generates a signal. This signal is called the ‘back electromotive force’ or back EMF.
The output stage of the amplifier presents an electrical load to the speaker, if that load is low, then there will be more current, which puts the brakes on that speaker movement and gives you that tight sound. An amplifier with a low output impedance in relation to the impedance of the speaker plus its cables presents such a load!
What does damping factor mean for my system?
With the very small output impedances of modern solid-state amplifiers, generally very little, you may not need to think about it. However, as damping factor is also affected by the impedance of your speaker cables, an investment in good quality, thick, low resistance speaker cables will reduce their impact on your damping factor.
Where things get a bit more interesting, is with valve amplifiers. As these are configured differently, and feature an output transformer, the output impedances are higher and therefore the damping factors are lower. But this may not necessarily be a bad thing, and the differences in damping factor are sometimes cited as being a contributor to the ‘valve amp’ sound, particularly when it comes to that most subjective of areas of sound- guitar amps.

Originally Posted by sharkmouth

Ok, but the part I was waiting for was what would be the ideal damping factor number & why?

My research shows anything north of 50 is ideal for MOST speakers. For Raidho's - I'm guessing 400+ - based solely on my own experience with the three amps. The one with a 440 damping factor controlled the woofers the best - but there was room for improvement.

Why not keep the REF10 for Pre and choose SS amps of choice.

Originally Posted by iamhifi

Why not keep the REF10 for Pre and choose SS amps of choice.

I would love to! But, tubes anywhere in the chain (except phono stage!) - I found to be less than ideal for the Raidho's.

Originally Posted by Mike

I would love to! But, tubes anywhere in the chain (except phono stage!) - I found to be less than ideal for the Raidho's.

Mike...from a technical standpoint, tubes in the pre should not mean less woofer control and woolly bass in the D3s. All the pre is doing is outputting a small 2V signal to the amps which is where all the work is done to apply another stage of gain and amplification and driving the speakers. I am not questioning what you are hearing but my guess is there was probably a mismatch between the Ref 10 and the SS amps you used than the issue being tubes in the chain in the preamp stage. In any case, I generally think it's better to keep pre and amp matched from same manufacturer anyway, so I am not trying to dissuade you from selling the Ref 10 but just trying to point out that you're not liking the Ref 10 with the SS amps you tried on the D3s probably has less to do with tubes in the Ref 10 and more likely a mismatch (impedance and otherwise) with the SS amps you tried. Just my 2c and speculation on the subject.

By the way, are the D3s displacing the Aidas in the big rig or are they going into the family room?

Originally Posted by cmalak

Mike...from a technical standpoint, tubes in the pre should not mean less woofer control and woolly bass in the D3s. All the pre is doing is outputting a small 2V signal to the amps which is where all the work is done to apply another stage of gain and amplification and driving the speakers. I am not questioning what you are hearing but my guess is there was probably a mismatch between the Ref 10 and the SS amps you used than the issue being tubes in the chain in the preamp stage. In any case, I generally think it's better to keep pre and amp matched from same manufacturer anyway, so I am not trying to dissuade you from selling the Ref 10 but just trying to point out that you're not liking the Ref 10 with the SS amps you tried on the D3s probably has less to do with tubes in the Ref 10 and more likely a mismatch (impedance and otherwise) with the SS amps you tried. Just my 2c and speculation on the subject.

By the way, are the D3s displacing the Aidas in the big rig or are they going into the family room?

Cyril - I know! It made no sense to me either. But it did. But, yes, same manufacturer is best.

As to your other question - TBD.

From Raidho website
Amplification > 50 W (Though we have seen excellent results with small tube amplifiers)
I wonder what tube amplication are they using

Originally Posted by iamhifi

From Raidho website
Amplification > 50 W (Though we have seen excellent results with small tube amplifiers)
I wonder what tube amplication are they using

VAC and VTL. I'm sure they sound fine with light jazz and classical! Anything else and you can.....forget it IMO.

A high damping factor isn't the only spec one should looking for when selecting an amplifier.

Also look for high slew rate and high output current.

High rise and fall slew rate means a very fast amp with very good control of the drivers on a speaker.
Not too high like Spectral with a 650V slew rate - not uses a filter at the output, means it need a filter inside the speaker cable, if not use cables with a built in filter the amp will oscillate/blow.

Amps with low output impedance, for example Boulder 2050 and Gryphon Mephisto - both have 0,02 ohm output impedance.
2050 is using feedback, Gryphon say they have Zero global feedback, but they are using local feedback with that low output impedance spec.

True zero feedback amps have higher output impedance - around 0,2 ohm and higher, many of them still have outstanding bass and control even with a damping factor of only 15.

Actually one of the best amps I've heard with a outstanding bass and control have a slew rate of 60V, 100A output current, 0,33 ohms output impedance and a damping factor of 25.
The damping factor is 25 from 100Hz to 10Khz - this is a very good spec, many amps have different damping factor specs on the different freq. responses.

Originally Posted by wizard

A high damping factor isn't the only spec one should looking for when selecting an amplifier.

Also look for high slew rate and high output current.

High rise and fall slew rate means a very fast amp with very good control of the drivers on a speaker.
Not too high like Spectral with a 650V slew rate - not uses a filter at the output, means it need a filter inside the speaker cable, if not use cables with a built in filter the amp will oscillate/blow.

Amps with low output impedance, for example Boulder 2050 and Gryphon Mephisto - both have 0,02 ohm output impedance.
2050 is using feedback, Gryphon say they have Zero global feedback, but they are using local feedback with that low output impedance spec.

True zero feedback amps have higher output impedance - around 0,2 ohm and higher, many of them still have outstanding bass and control even with a damping factor of only 15.

Actually one of the best amps I've heard with a outstanding bass and control have a slew rate of 60V, 100A output current, 0,33 ohms output impedance and a damping factor of 25.

Thanks Wizard!! What amp was that?

I was just going to ask the same.

Originally Posted by Mike

Thanks Wizard!! What amp was that?

Yes I forgot to write the name of the amps - it's AM Audio Excellence.

Originally Posted by wizard

Yes I forgot to write the name of the amps - it's AM Audio Excellence.

Thank you!

And only 25 for damping factor, wow!