Welcome to the AudioShark Forums.
Page 1 of 11 123456 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 535
  1. #1
    Audioshark
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sarasota, FL
    Posts
    25,636

    Why no turntable?

    Iím curious, why donít more audiophiles at least consider a basic vinyl rig? Iíve heard the regular reasons: too much care and feeding, I sold all my records, Iím not buying anymore vinyl, itís too much hassle. But I personally donít find that to be the case.

    Wouldnít having a turntable in addition to a great digital setup be nice?

    The great thing about a turntable is that a great turntable today will be a great turntable in 10 or 20 years from now. Wouldnít that be a good investment?



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    The Gem State
    Posts
    147

    Re: Why no turntable?

    I can see the attraction to vinyl, but for me personally I’ve been spoiled by the convenience of Roon and Lumin.
    Gary
    Accuphase E-650; Lumin A1; Tannoy Canterbury GR

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    1,774

    Why no turntable?

    When I got back into Audio I was going to build a budget system around a pair of Snell speakers I bought in 1993, this included a turn table - the budget was blown and no turntable.

    I now want to add a simple vinyl system, despite wanting Brinkmann, betting on my foundation will give a serious contribution in sound quality, and I am not going over the top, I canít and wonít!

    Right now I am interested in Clear Audio top of the line Concept and their balanced Phono Stage, for less then $5000 unless anyone else has a suggestion in this league.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R with 4point 9 arm & Kuzma 40 Cartridge
    Source Digital: Aurender N10 | Brinkmann Nyquist MK II
    Amplification: Dan DíAgostino Momentum Pre Amp and Monos | Boulder Phono 508
    Speakers: Wilson Alexias
    Cabling: Nordost Valhalla 2/Odin: power, interconnects & speaker | Ansuz: C2 power & interconnect | Audioquest Diamond RJ45ís
    Power: Nordost QRT series | Furutech FP55SN cable from 20 amp breakers to Furutech GTX D NSF packages | Keces P3 & P8 | ADD POWR series | Environmental Potential EP2050
    Other: HRS M3X | Stillpoints Ultra 6, SS & Mini | Nordost Sort Cones TC & BC | AQ Vox SE switch | etherREGEN | Gigafoil v4 | Vicoustics | Audio Desk Systeme - Glšss








  4. #4
    Audioshark
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sarasota, FL
    Posts
    25,636

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    When I got back into Audio I was going to build a budget system around a pair of Snell speakers I bought in 1993, this included a turn table - the budget was blown and no turntable.

    I now want to add a simple vinyl system betting on my foundation will make up the difference, and not going over the top, canít and wonít!

    I am interested in Clear Audio Concept and their balanced Phono Stage, for less then $5000.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Excellent choice.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  5. #5

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Personally, I wouldn't be happy if all I had was a single source to play music in my system.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    1,617

    Re: Why no turntable?

    unpopular opinion, but I feel digital is much better at the lower levels.

    the analog investment for vinyl is high for playback as well as media. that said, analog re-masters on a good TT setup are the cat's meow and make it worth the effort. i have a half mastered Everything but the Girl album in transit that will never be on digital.
    Brinkmann Bardo w/ 47 Labs MC Bee cart, MSB Premier DAC --> Music First Baby Reference v2 --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> YG Acoustics Hailey 2.2

  7. #7

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Vinyl lover

    IMG_3523.jpeg

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    saṃsāra
    Posts
    573

    Re: Why no turntable?

    timely thread...

    two years ago i began building + remaking my system. at the time i chose to only focus on digital as a source, leaving the decision on analog to a later date. well, i am close to being finished which, therefore, puts me back at the point where i can consider adding analog as a source.

    i would really, really love to add analog but i would be starting from zero... i have no LP library and do not have much experience in "hi-end" analog. also, for all the reasons you list, i ask myself if it is really worth it. more importantly though, would i be able create an analog source that i am as happy with as i am my digital source?

    the extra effort, care + feeding, etc. would be totally worth it for me... IF i knew i could end up with an analog source that is at least as good as my digital source. problem is, i don't really know where to start and that makes it seem like a process of trial and error... and iterating through components to get to that point is probably inefficient / expensive.

    so from your perspective mike, there is probably a lot of product education that could be done, even for folks like me who grew up when vinyl was king. anything that would make it easier and give more confidence in the end result would, i think, induce more people jump into the pool... the last thing i would want to do is spend multiples of what my digital source cost to not end up with something i was happy with.
    kanjiroba yak + roon rock > t+a dac8 dsd > almarro a318b > viking acoustics berlin r mk2 | alp-tone audio analog cables

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    1,774

    Re: Why no turntable?

    As much as I enjoy my digital CD and Streaming setup, I do like the physical media of an album that I can play with.

    I predict my usage will be

    Streaming/NAS - 80%
    CD - 5% - 10%
    Turntable 15% - 20%


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R with 4point 9 arm & Kuzma 40 Cartridge
    Source Digital: Aurender N10 | Brinkmann Nyquist MK II
    Amplification: Dan DíAgostino Momentum Pre Amp and Monos | Boulder Phono 508
    Speakers: Wilson Alexias
    Cabling: Nordost Valhalla 2/Odin: power, interconnects & speaker | Ansuz: C2 power & interconnect | Audioquest Diamond RJ45ís
    Power: Nordost QRT series | Furutech FP55SN cable from 20 amp breakers to Furutech GTX D NSF packages | Keces P3 & P8 | ADD POWR series | Environmental Potential EP2050
    Other: HRS M3X | Stillpoints Ultra 6, SS & Mini | Nordost Sort Cones TC & BC | AQ Vox SE switch | etherREGEN | Gigafoil v4 | Vicoustics | Audio Desk Systeme - Glšss








  10. #10
    Audioshark
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sarasota, FL
    Posts
    25,636

    Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by aKnyght View Post
    timely thread...

    two years ago i began building + remaking my system. at the time i chose to only focus on digital as a source, leaving the decision on analog to a later date. well, i am close to being finished which, therefore, puts me back at the point where i can consider adding analog as a source.

    i would really, really love to add analog but i would be starting from zero... i have no LP library and do not have much experience in "hi-end" analog. also, for all the reasons you list, i ask myself if it is really worth it. more importantly though, would i be able create an analog source that i am as happy with as i am my digital source?

    the extra effort, care + feeding, etc. would be totally worth it for me... IF i knew i could end up with an analog source that is at least as good as my digital source. problem is, i don't really know where to start and that makes it seem like a process of trial and error... and iterating through components to get to that point is probably inefficient / expensive.

    so from your perspective mike, there is probably a lot of product education that could be done, even for folks like me who grew up when vinyl was king. anything that would make it easier and give more confidence in the end result would, i think, induce more people jump into the pool... the last thing i would want to do is spend multiples of what my digital source cost to not end up with something i was happy with.
    Well, there is a great collective of expertise here on Audioshark. What I always start with is a budget. You will want:

    - a turntable
    - tonearm
    - cartridge
    - Phonostage
    - (maybe) turntable cable (some TTís come with cables)
    - AudioQuest record cleaning brush (cheap and good!)
    - record cleaning machine

    It isnít really an arduous task. Travel over to Acoustic Sounds and pick 10 of your favorite albums. Thatís it. Start with 10. Pink Floyd DSOTM perhaps? Fleetwood Mac Rumors perhaps? Or maybe youíre into classical or jazz? If jazz, the Music Matters Blue Noteís are amazing. Mobile Fidelity also has some wonderful albums.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Upstate NY
    Posts
    192

    Re: Why no turntable?

    I preferred the sound of vinyl for many years. My problem with it was that I kept destroying expensive cartridges by being a klutz. My last straw was destroying my Lyra Kleos, which I loved. I got rid of my analog system and all my records so I don't have to think about going back. I do miss it but after more than 60 years I have come to realize that I am not as careful as I once was. I can't do much damage to my digital system.
    Paul

    Main Stereo System:

    Sonus Faber Stradivari, McIntosh C1100, MC2301 (2), Esoteric K-01x, Aurender N10, Berkeley Alpha DAC Reference Series 2 MQA, Berkeley Alpha USB, Synergistic Research and Audience Power Conditioners, AZ Absolute Copper interconnects, AZ Absolute speaker cables, AZ Gargantua 2 and Krakatoa PC's, Stillpoints & Symposium shelves under everything.

    Theater System:
    JVC RS400 projector, 100" Stewart Firehawk screen, Oppo 205 & 105D, Audio Physic Classic speakers, JL F113, MC8207 MX136, Synergistic Research Powercell, AZ interconnects, speaker cables and PC's.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Milford, MI
    Posts
    3,289

    Re: Why no turntable?

    I have a turntable but I cannot for the life of me tell you why.
    Jim

    D'Agostino Momentum M-400's & HD Pre-amp
    Wilson Alexandria X2 Series 2 speakers
    Digital: dCS Vivaldi DAC, Clock & Upsampler
    Analog: SME 20/3 with Esoteric E-03 Phono
    Transparent Opus Speaker Cable & Interconnects & Opus Power Cords
    Power Cords on Digital: Shunyata

  13. #13

    Re: Why no turntable?

    I did the records (vinyl) thing for nearly 50 years. Over the past nearly 40 years, digital has gotten so good that I can no longer see a reason to put up with the hassle of playing records.

    Now from my easy chair, I can listen to a particular song and if that song inspires me follow it up with a song by a different artist, I can do that very easily; all without the ticks and pops that remind me that I'm listening to a recording. Not only that, but rather than being limited to the music in my own collection, I have choice of all the music that has ever been recorded, at my fingertips.
    - Steve

    McIntosh MA252 Integrated Amp ē PS Audio DirectStream DAC
    ē Roon Nucleus Server ē Harbeth C7ES3 Loudspeakers on Sound Anchor stands ē Magnepan .7 Loudspeakers ē JL Audio D108 Sub ē Analysis Plus Black Oval 12 Speaker Cables ē Analysis Plus Solo Crystal Oval Balanced Interconnects ē PS Audio Dectet Power Center ē PS Audio AC3 A/C cords

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    saṃsāra
    Posts
    573

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithR View Post
    unpopular opinion, but I feel digital is much better at the lower levels.

    the analog investment for vinyl is high for playback as well as media. that said, analog re-masters on a good TT setup are the cat's meow and make it worth the effort. i have a half mastered Everything but the Girl album in transit that will never be on digital.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Well, there is a great collective of expertise here on Audioshark. What I always start with is a budget. You will want:

    - a turntable
    - tonearm
    - cartridge
    - Phonostage
    - (maybe) turntable cable (some TT’s come with cables)
    - AudioQuest record cleaning brush (cheap and good!)
    - record cleaning machine

    It isn’t really an arduous task. Travel over to Acoustic Sounds and pick 10 of your favorite albums. That’s it. Start with 10. Pink Floyd DSOTM perhaps? Fleetwood Mac Rumors perhaps? Or maybe you’re into classical or jazz? If jazz, the Music Matters Blue Note’s are amazing. Mobile Fidelity also has some wonderful albums.
    thanks mike! the music matters blue note LPs are a not small part of the attraction -- not sure i could stop a 10.

    its not the parts list, its the narrowing down and selecting from all the choices: BD/DD, MM/MC, SS/tube pre, 12"/9" tonearm, various manufactures and models, etc. like i say, without a good knowledge base to start from, iterating through components to get to a happy end goes against my frugal-ish nature. but as you say AS is a great resource and i suppose its just a matter of doing the research (which is after all part of the fun in this hobby).
    kanjiroba yak + roon rock > t+a dac8 dsd > almarro a318b > viking acoustics berlin r mk2 | alp-tone audio analog cables

  15. #15
    Audioshark
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sarasota, FL
    Posts
    25,636

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by aKnyght View Post
    thanks mike! the music matters blue note LPs are a not small part of the attraction -- not sure i could stop a 10.

    its not the parts list, its the narrowing down and selecting from all the choices: BD/DD, MM/MC, SS/tube pre, 12"/9" tonearm, various manufactures and models, etc. like i say, without a good knowledge base to start from, iterating through components to get to a happy end goes against my frugal-ish nature. but as you say AS is a great resource and i suppose its just a matter of doing the research (which is after all part of the fun in this hobby).
    True. Donít forget suspended Vs not suspended. A VPI HW40 with a Ortofon Cadenza Black makes a strong argument for killer table and cart for not a stupid price. I favor tube Phonostage myself - the Luxman EQ500 being at the top for again, crazy value. Zesto and Manley also make great options.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Silicon Valley
    Posts
    2,361

    Re: Why no turntable?

    I used to have a turntable, but not now. Why do I want 19th century technology in a 21st century stereo? Why do I want something that damages the music each time it is played? Why do I want a music source that might have one or two decent songs?

    Never again.
    Bud

    Lumin X1
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for preamp, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    east of Seattle
    Posts
    534

    Re: Why no turntable?

    this past Tuesday evening i had 10 music loving visitors (2 wives included). they were there from before 6pm to midnight. it was a fun session.

    we listened to digital, vinyl and tape.

    each format had it's advantages. we used my digital to access music from my files, Tidal and Qobuz, mostly we played vinyl, and did a couple of tapes, one 1/4" 15ips and one 1/2" 15ips.

    but there was no doubt where the consistent magic was found, the place the emotional connection ran the highest, and that was vinyl. it could grab you and you would hear way into it. i played some very large scale music at warp 9 and it all held 100% together.

    and my digital does not suck. to be fair, no one mentioned that something was missing with my digital, even streaming. and we accessed some pretty off the rails digital tracks. i can't say what they were thinking.

    music was the big deal that night. and we all enjoyed it. IMHO the session would have been less memorable without vinyl.

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    1,774

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    this past Tuesday evening i had 10 music loving visitors (2 wives included). they were there from before 6pm to midnight. it was a fun session.

    we listened to digital, vinyl and tape.

    each format had it's advantages. we used my digital to access music from my files, Tidal and Qobuz, mostly we played vinyl, and did a couple of tapes, one 1/4" 15ips and one 1/2" 15ips.

    but there was no doubt where the consistent magic was found, the place the emotional connection ran the highest, and that was vinyl. it could grab you and you would hear way into it. i played some very large scale music at warp 9 and it all held 100% together.

    and my digital does not suck. to be fair, no one mentioned that something was missing with my digital, even streaming. and we accessed some pretty off the rails digital tracks. i can't say what they were thinking.

    music was the big deal that night. and we all enjoyed it. IMHO the session would have been less memorable without vinyl.
    While Iím going to add vinyl, all but one that has listened to my digital system has been blown away, the one that did not was impressed but kept saying it sounded digital - there was a new Odin power cable feeding distribution with 20 hours into breaking in.

    I do agree the music referenced plays a big part.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R with 4point 9 arm & Kuzma 40 Cartridge
    Source Digital: Aurender N10 | Brinkmann Nyquist MK II
    Amplification: Dan DíAgostino Momentum Pre Amp and Monos | Boulder Phono 508
    Speakers: Wilson Alexias
    Cabling: Nordost Valhalla 2/Odin: power, interconnects & speaker | Ansuz: C2 power & interconnect | Audioquest Diamond RJ45ís
    Power: Nordost QRT series | Furutech FP55SN cable from 20 amp breakers to Furutech GTX D NSF packages | Keces P3 & P8 | ADD POWR series | Environmental Potential EP2050
    Other: HRS M3X | Stillpoints Ultra 6, SS & Mini | Nordost Sort Cones TC & BC | AQ Vox SE switch | etherREGEN | Gigafoil v4 | Vicoustics | Audio Desk Systeme - Glšss








  19. #19

    Smile Re: Why no turntable?

    I'll be a bit contrarian here and say that I don't feel a need for a turntable even in the upper price range. A few years ago I was convinced, as a digital only guy, that top level vinyl was still markedly superior, but my perception has changed, with advances in digital and my system downstream of the digital source.

    Now I am hard-pressed to think of anything that my friends' turntables, which I am very impressed with, do consistently better than my Redbook CD digital rig that costs almost 10 x less (it costs less than just those phono stages). I thought that maybe vinyl still had an advantage in the highs, but I have given up on also that idea since I have my new Octave preamp, which allows me to hear exquisitely pure highs from my digital rig, including from jazz cymbals and high-pitched metallic percussion on modern classical (and hey, the overtones of orchestral violins can sound fantastic too). In terms of resolution -- separation of instruments in complex music, as well as micro detail of timbre -- I don't hear any advantage of LP anymore either.

    Yes, there are recordings that sound better on LP, because the mastering on CD is just not that good. I will always, for example, prefer the LP of Gidon Kremer's recording of Bach's violin sonatas and partitas on Philips over the CD on the same label. There is always something about certain jazz LPs that may be preferable to the CD as well, even though there are also many jazz CDs with stellar sound.

    On especially classical, and much jazz, CD is overall great. LP may sometimes sound "nicer" than CD, but from my not inconsiderable experience with live classical music I cannot shake the impression that the sometimes "harder" sound of CD simply may be more realistic.

    I might feel differently in my preferences if I would listen mainly to rock and pop because there CD mastering with the loudness wars, among others, may often be suboptimal, even though there are great sounding rock CDs as well. But let's face it, many 'original' LP pressings of rock albums are mediocre too, or even plain lousy.

    As for emotional involvement, for me it's all there in spades with my digital, I personally miss nothing compared to LP.
    Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave

  20. #20

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Another thing is the clicks and pops. I have no problem with them in my friends' systems, but in my own system they would drive me crazy. They did when I was a teenager, and I became an obsessive compulsive cleaner of LPs. CD relieved me from that ordeal, and I never looked back, even though I was well aware of the shortcomings of early digital.
    Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave

  21. #21
    Audioshark
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sarasota, FL
    Posts
    25,636

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    this past Tuesday evening i had 10 music loving visitors (2 wives included). they were there from before 6pm to midnight. it was a fun session.

    we listened to digital, vinyl and tape.

    each format had it's advantages. we used my digital to access music from my files, Tidal and Qobuz, mostly we played vinyl, and did a couple of tapes, one 1/4" 15ips and one 1/2" 15ips.

    but there was no doubt where the consistent magic was found, the place the emotional connection ran the highest, and that was vinyl. it could grab you and you would hear way into it. i played some very large scale music at warp 9 and it all held 100% together.

    and my digital does not suck. to be fair, no one mentioned that something was missing with my digital, even streaming. and we accessed some pretty off the rails digital tracks. i can't say what they were thinking.

    music was the big deal that night. and we all enjoyed it. IMHO the session would have been less memorable without vinyl.
    Mike, like you, having all three sources gives us a different perspective, each having wonderful qualities. For me, Vinyl has such presence. When Iím listening to vinyl (originally recorded to tape and not the recorded to digital files and then cut to vinyl), the ďpresenceĒ vinyl has allows me to be part of the performance. Close your eyes and you suspend belief. You are part of the performance. Youíre there. When I listen to a modest digital setup (which is all I have at home), I feel there is no doubt Iím listening to a recording of a performance. It lacks that magical presence. I suspect thatís part of what your guests heard as well.

    But I also love digital for the convenience, finding new music, and the trouble free sound.

    Frankly, I would encourage everyone to have both. Thereís no right or wrong. Both are really terrific in their own right.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  22. #22

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Great topic!

    having Vinyl and digital streaming gives me flexibility with all my music.


    Here's a video from one the great pioneers in Vinyl--AJ Van Den Hul.

    AJ's take on both formats...


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTVHURVglEg&t=48s

  23. #23

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithR View Post
    unpopular opinion, but I feel digital is much better at the lower levels.

    the analog investment for vinyl is high for playback as well as media. that said, analog re-masters on a good TT setup are the cat's meow and make it worth the effort. i have a half mastered Everything but the Girl album in transit that will never be on digital.
    Which Everything but the Girl album(s) is(are) their seminal albums? I'm not familiar with their music and am listening to their debut album now over Tidal. Very pleasant vibe.

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Silicon Valley
    Posts
    2,361

    Re: Why no turntable?

    The stereo has been playing non-stop for 90 minutes, and, other than getting up for beer, I havenít moved. This should continue for at least another 5 hours.
    Bud

    Lumin X1
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for preamp, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.

  25. #25

    Why no turntable?

    This may sound funny, but I actually enjoy optimizing my vinyl setup, and the fact, that it actually requires a bit of skills and knowledge - not just money.

    And Iím with Mike & Mike: different media give me different things. Both, my digital and vinyl setups are rather good, and there is no need for a blunt either/ or. I also enjoy collecting vinyls, while collecting digital less so. Especially, as everything is so readily available via Tidal etc.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    ďLifeís too short to listen to bad audio.Ē

    Big rig: Brinkmann Taurus DD TT + 12.1 arm + Lyra Etna Lambda SL MC + HRS M3X2/ Cardas Clear Beyond phono/ Stillpoints LPI/ Soulution 520 preamp with phono/ Synology NAS with Roon + HD Plex linear PSU + Shunyata HD/ AQ Vodka RJ45 + Aqvox Network Switch SE + AQ Diamond RJ45 into DAC/ Brinkmann Nyquist MK II/ Soulution 511/ WyWires Platinum ICs/ Semi-active Lansche Audio 4.2 LS/ Inakustik Reference LS 4004 AIR/ 2x Audioquest Thunder HD for LS/ Audioquest Niagara 5000/ Shunyata AlphaHC (x2)+Alpha+Alpha Analogue+Alpha Digital/ Finite Elemente Pagode/ Stillpoints Ultra SS.

    Small rig: Naim UnitiServe/ Curious USB/ Tidal/ Linn Klimax DS3/ Shunyata Power cable/ Pass Labs INT-60/ Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II/ HiD Diamond 8/ Harbeth 30.2 40th Anniversary/ Shunyata Venom EU7 & Venom 3 HD.

    HP rig: MacBookAir/ Tidal/ Auralic Gemini 2000/ Sbooster LPSU/ Audeze LCD-2 Classic + WyWires Red/ Shunyata HD/ Shunyata Hydra 2/ Shunyata Venom.

  26. #26

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Mike, like you, having all three sources gives us a different perspective, each having wonderful qualities. For me, Vinyl has such presence. When Iím listening to vinyl (originally recorded to tape and not the recorded to digital files and then cut to vinyl), the ďpresenceĒ vinyl has allows me to be part of the performance. Close your eyes and you suspend belief. You are part of the performance. Youíre there. When I listen to a modest digital setup (which is all I have at home), I feel there is no doubt Iím listening to a recording of a performance. It lacks that magical presence. I suspect thatís part of what your guests heard as well.

    But I also love digital for the convenience, finding new music, and the trouble free sound.

    Frankly, I would encourage everyone to have both. Thereís no right or wrong. Both are really terrific in their own right.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I don't know, Mike. Presence has always been one of the strongest points of my digital system, and it is now better than ever with the most recent increases in transparency. I was just listening to the track 'Alone Together' for bass clarinet and stand up bass, from the recent release Eric Dolphy 'Musical Prophet'. I have heard that track on LP elsewhere, and the two instruments had incredible presence. Yet they also do on CD in my system, as if they were standing in front of you performing.

    Vocals can sound uncannily real precisely because of the presence, next to the other things that need to be right in reproduction. On my recording of Stockhausen's 'In the Sky I am Walking' there are just two singers, mezzo soprano and tenor, without accompaniment. I like to listen in the dark, and the impression of the two singers being right in front of you, transparently, with no veil between you and the performers, can be startling, even frightening.

    So no, I don't think vinyl has an edge when it comes to that.
    Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave

  27. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    "Clueless" in California
    Posts
    984

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    The stereo has been playing non-stop for 90 minutes, and, other than getting up for beer, I haven’t moved. This should continue for at least another 5 hours.
    Oh yeah? well I can stream from my phone via bluetooth to a sonos one outside on my patio while basking under the sun and I had money left over for a bottle of Blanton's which beats yer beer any day of the week

    engaging music playback is more than convenience.
    Linn Kilmax LP12 | Channel D | Valvet | Muse Elec. | Innuos | Klipsch

    "One of the great challenges of this world: Knowing enough about a subject to think you are right, but not enough about the subject to know you're wrong" - Neil deGrasse Tyson

  28. #28
    Audioshark
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sarasota, FL
    Posts
    25,636

    Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al M. View Post
    I don't know, Mike. Presence has always been one of the strongest points of my digital system, and it is now better than ever with the most recent increases in transparency. I was just listening to the track 'Alone Together' for bass clarinet and stand up bass, from the recent release Eric Dolphy 'Musical Prophet'. I have heard that track on LP elsewhere, and the two instruments had incredible presence. Yet they also do on CD in my system, as if they were standing in front of you performing.

    Vocals can sound uncannily real precisely because of the presence, next to the other things that need to be right in reproduction. On my recording of Stockhausen's 'In the Sky I am Walking' there are just two singers, mezzo soprano and tenor, without accompaniment. I like to listen in the dark, and the impression of the two singers being right in front of you, transparently, with no veil between you and the performers, can be startling, even frightening.

    So no, I don't think vinyl has an edge when it comes to that.
    It would all depend on the pressing I guess. A noisy pressing and it will ruin the presence. But ultimately, unless you listen to vinyl in the same system, you wonít know.

    My point wasnít that one was better than the other. Today, both are superb. But I do feel having both gives you an appreciation for the other and certain recordings excel on digital and others excel on vinyl. Having both gives you luxury. For example, listening to many of these great new presses on vinyl makes the digital sound nasty. Listening to some of the new digital recordings makes the vinyl sound nasty!

    For example, this album was UNLISTENABLE on vinyl:



    But the vinyl of this makes the SACD sound digital:




    My two cents: if it was recorded in analog, listen in analog. If it was recorded in digital, listen in digital.

    My point in why having both formats is nice.
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Silicon Valley
    Posts
    2,361

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Three hours so far of non stop musical bliss. I love to listen to music, not frack with it.
    Bud

    Lumin X1
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for preamp, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.

  30. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    1,617

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by RDSChicago View Post
    Which Everything but the Girl album(s) is(are) their seminal albums? I'm not familiar with their music and am listening to their debut album now over Tidal. Very pleasant vibe.
    The early stuff is more folk, poppy and the latter stuff I prefer is more electronic. Most of it was well recorded to begin with. Amplified and Walking Wounded are my favorites and probably their seminal work.

    https://pitchfork.com/news/everythin...vinyl-reissue/

    So they cut the new LP straight from the analog tapes apparently. Tracey Thorn also was involved with Massive Attack later in the 90s.
    Brinkmann Bardo w/ 47 Labs MC Bee cart, MSB Premier DAC --> Music First Baby Reference v2 --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> YG Acoustics Hailey 2.2

  31. #31

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    It would all depend on the pressing I guess. A noisy pressing and it will ruin the presence. But ultimately, unless you listen to vinyl in the same system, you won’t know.
    For me presence isn't really ruined by some noise on the pressing if the sound quality is excellent. Yet there are pressings that are compromised in the latter.

    My point wasn’t that one was better than the other. Today, both are superb. But I do feel having both gives you an appreciation for the other and certain recordings excel on digital and others excel on vinyl. Having both gives you luxury. For example, listening to many of these great new presses on vinyl makes the digital sound nasty. Listening to some of the new digital recordings makes the vinyl sound nasty!

    For example, this album was UNLISTENABLE on vinyl:



    But the vinyl of this makes the SACD sound digital:




    My two cents: if it was recorded in analog, listen in analog. If it was recorded in digital, listen in digital.

    My point in why having both formats is nice.
    As I said before, I do agree that sometimes the LP is just plain better, because the mastering/ digital transfer of the CD is compromised. But if it is nice to have vinyl too, at what expense and effort? For me it's just too much.

    Again, if I'd be more into rock/pop, which I also love but listen to less at home than classical and jazz (and electronica), I might think somewhat differently. But I would still have a hard time with clicks and pops, while in my friends' systems they don't really bother me.
    Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave

  32. #32
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,840

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Personally, I wouldn't be happy if all I had was a single source to play music in my system.
    My experience is that if you find one source component that thrills you every time you listen to it, the need for multiple sources quickly vanishes. That’s what happened to me. I feel it’s better to focus money on one phenomenal sounding source, whatever it may be, then to spread funds over two or more excellent sounding sources.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases, Femto 33 Clock, Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000ís with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  33. #33

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    My experience is that if you find one source component that thrills you every time you listen to it, the need for multiple sources quickly vanishes. Thatís what happened to me. I feel itís better to focus money on one phenomenal sounding source, whatever it may be, then to spread funds over two or more excellent sounding sources.

    Ken
    +1

    I used to have a fairly nice (to me at least ) TT setup. However, I didnít have the record collection built up as many did as I just got into vinyl over the past few years. I also didnít grow up on records as many here did so, there wasnít that nostalgic connection.

    However, I found myself ďobsessing ď over every component of the analog chain. My cart, my phone stage, the arm , etc..

    Personally with my OCD ; it wasnít working for me. I felt like I was constantly ďchasing my tailĒ in my head. Even if I wasnít purchasing a piece of gear, I was agonizing about the sound and setup; that I wasnít enjoying listening to music as I should be.

    I wonít argue that certain analog pressings and setups Iíve heard do sound amazing.

    However, modern digital technology (to me) suffices enough. So, I sold it all and invested in a one box physical Disc player.

    I still spin physical CDs exclusively and have that as my only source in my system. I donít feel Iím missing out on anything.

    Rather Iíve felt Iíve taken a giant leap forward in my system in terms of sonic quality and pure enjoyment. To me at least.

  34. #34

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    My experience is that if you find one source component that thrills you every time you listen to it, the need for multiple sources quickly vanishes. That’s what happened to me. I feel it’s better to focus money on one phenomenal sounding source, whatever it may be, then to spread funds over two or more excellent sounding sources.

    Ken
    + 2

    I feel that you have so much more freedom to put resources into what matters most, if you focus on one thing.

    In my case, I also could have put a good amount of money into a dedicated server in order to be able to play 'high rez' (my experience suggests that you can't do proper computer audio on the cheap). Instead I invested the money elsewhere in the chain. Most recently into a superb preamp (Octave HP 700) that reveals just how astonishingly good my CD replay really is. If I would not have single mindedly focused on this, none of digital would now be on that level in my system. Not even close.
    Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave

  35. #35

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Mike, like you, having all three sources gives us a different perspective, each having wonderful qualities. For me, Vinyl has such presence. When Iím listening to vinyl (originally recorded to tape and not the recorded to digital files and then cut to vinyl), the ďpresenceĒ vinyl has allows me to be part of the performance. Close your eyes and you suspend belief. You are part of the performance. Youíre there. When I listen to a modest digital setup (which is all I have at home), I feel there is no doubt Iím listening to a recording of a performance. It lacks that magical presence. I suspect thatís part of what your guests heard as well.

    But I also love digital for the convenience, finding new music, and the trouble free sound.

    Frankly, I would encourage everyone to have both. Thereís no right or wrong. Both are really terrific in their own right.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    While digital is super convenient, I wouldn't classify it as "trouble free" by any stretch of the imagination. There are all kinds of digital gremlins and the more digital dingleberries you add to your signal path, the more you increase your chances of things going wrong. The most common problem I see is losing the handshake between the server and the remote app which usually requires rebooting the iPad to reestablish the connection.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

  36. #36

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    My experience is that if you find one source component that thrills you every time you listen to it, the need for multiple sources quickly vanishes. That’s what happened to me. I feel it’s better to focus money on one phenomenal sounding source, whatever it may be, then to spread funds over two or more excellent sounding sources.

    Ken
    I respect your opinion and your approach Ken.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

  37. #37
    Audioshark
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sarasota, FL
    Posts
    25,636

    Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    While digital is super convenient, I wouldn't classify it as "trouble free" by any stretch of the imagination. There are all kinds of digital gremlins and the more digital dingleberries you add to your signal path, the more you increase your chances of things going wrong. The most common problem I see is losing the handshake between the server and the remote app which usually requires rebooting the iPad to reestablish the connection.
    The most common issue I see is more fundamental. Lousy A2D converters used in studios. This in the past 5 years has really changed with the Merging A2D converters, but most used from 1981 to about 2015 went from bad to mediocre at best. Thankfully the newer ones are very good, but now we battle compression.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  38. #38

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    The most common issue I see is more fundamental. Lousy A2D converters used in studios. This in the past 5 years has really changed with the Merging A2D converters, but most used from 1981 to about 2015 went from bad to mediocre at best. Thankfully the newer ones are very good, but now we battle compression.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    That's a different can of worms Mike. I wasn't referring to the SQ of digital, but the gremlins involved in setting up your digital rig with a headless server, D/A converter, and remote app.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

  39. #39

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    While digital is super convenient, I wouldn't classify it as "trouble free" by any stretch of the imagination. There are all kinds of digital gremlins and the more digital dingleberries you add to your signal path, the more you increase your chances of things going wrong. The most common problem I see is losing the handshake between the server and the remote app which usually requires rebooting the iPad to reestablish the connection.
    One of the reasons why I don't like computer audio. My Simaudio CD transport gave not once a problem in 5 years. Simple pathway, clean solution.
    Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave

  40. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    612

    Re: Why no turntable?

    OK, I am not trying to have - or want to have - an argument. But...

    In listening to hundreds of tts where the owner proclaimed it to be the best source, not one of them was set up as well as it could/should have been. Some were pretty close to being optimized, but the majority missed the mark in several areas.

    I am not referring to basic mechanical set-up which most anyone can do, I am referring to those settings that require listening and adjusting until musical involvement reigns supreme.

    IMO - and that's all it is - my opinion - way too many who claim their level of music of reproduction from vinyl to be superior are simply incorrect - often because they lack a true reference. Also, more often than not, their systems are not set-up well enough to truly reveal performance issues.

    FWIW and for the record - I have not heard Mike's or Mike L.'s vinyl set-ups.

    Vinyl can indeed be rewarding. But it typically seems to require a bit more effort & understanding from tt owners to actually reach & deliver its full potential.

    A related - and more detailed - article I wrote for Copper e-mag some time ago:

    https://www.psaudio.com/article/vinyl-vivid-or-veiled
    Small Green Computer; gigaFoil 4 Ethernet filter w/ Keces PS-3; Sonore ultraRendu; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; AQ Diamond USB; Duelund USB; Curious USB; Lush USB; Supra USB; PS Audio LanRover; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; 4 Audioquest Diamond ethernet - 0.75M, 1.5 M, 3M, 5M; Audioquest Diamond AES - 3M; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex - updated; Wyred4Sound STP-SE-2 preamplifier, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/KT150s; Wyred4Sound STP-750E Mk II amplifier w/Kimber TCX wiring & WBT binding posts; Quicksilver Mid Mono amplifiers w/KT77s, Joseph Audio Perspective 2 Graphenes; Symposium Super Plus Speaker Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Tripp Lite PCs; Stealth Dream PCs; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.

    www.getbettersound.com

  41. #41
    Audioshark
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sarasota, FL
    Posts
    25,636

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Yes, proper turntable setup is key. Fortunately today with products like AnalogMagik by my good friend Rick Mak, we can get perfection. Mike who works for me, is a fabulous TT setup guy. Young eyes and a steady hand sure do help.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  42. #42

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    The most common issue I see is more fundamental. Lousy A2D converters used in studios. This in the past 5 years has really changed with the Merging A2D converters, but most used from 1981 to about 2015 went from bad to mediocre at best. Thankfully the newer ones are very good, but now we battle compression.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Not sure about AD converters in pop/rock production, but I have a good number of classical digital recordings from the 80s that are great.

    For example, this one, recorded digitally in 1984/85:

    https://www.amazon.com/Hindemith-Har.../dp/B0000287PI

    Superior resolution, great tone. Nothing wrong with the AD converter they used back then.
    Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave

  43. #43
    Audioshark
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sarasota, FL
    Posts
    25,636

    Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al M. View Post
    Not sure about AD converters in pop/rock production, but I have a good number of classical digital recordings from the 80s that are great.

    For example, this one, recorded digitally in 1984/85:

    https://www.amazon.com/Hindemith-Har.../dp/B0000287PI

    Superior resolution, great tone. Nothing wrong with the AD converter they used back then.
    Admittedly, classical can be better on digital because the quiet passages lend themselves to the digital format. Except for a few incredible original Decca recordings, if Iím listening to classical, Iím all digital I think.

    But for rock, jazz, etc. hmmm....it all depends. Having both is great.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  44. #44

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Admittedly, classical can be better on digital because the quiet passages lend themselves to the digital format. Except for a few incredible original Decca recordings, if Iím listening to classical, Iím all digital I think.

    But for rock, jazz, etc. hmmm....it all depends.
    It does indeed.

    Having both is great.
    In principle, no disagreement. In practice, agreement only with all the caveats I mentioned.
    Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave

  45. #45
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    east of Seattle
    Posts
    534

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Admittedly, classical can be better on digital because the quiet passages lend themselves to the digital format. Except for a few incredible original Decca recordings, if I’m listening to classical, I’m all digital I think.

    But for rock, jazz, etc. hmmm....it all depends. Having both is great.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    my listening is about 70% classical, lot's of large orchestral, and mostly digital, so i agree to an extent.....but......classical on vinyl has a higher upside and even on the quiet passages there is more 'there' than digital. and it's not limited to one label.

    when i play large scale classical on vinyl it is (mostly) a force of nature. i do think that the nature of the vinyl format makes it challenging to fully optimize it. i don't want to side-track this enjoyable thread, but recently i've found that having active isolation under my whole signal path has taken vinyl to another level of lower noise and added coherence. what i mean by that is i have active isolation under both my mono blocks, my preamp (including my phono's), and my turntable. this 'breaks' the mechanical feedback loop that has always held back vinyl and has some fundamental implications in freeing up the format to soar.

    i'm not speaking about clicks and pops, i'm talking about hearing into the noise floor.

    essentially don't blame the format for execution shortfalls. feedback and ground noise effects every piece of the signal path and get's back to the surface of the record unless it's eliminated. quiet passage performance is there for the finding with vinyl. and when it's a quiet passage with vinyl, there is more substance to that quiet compared to digital (if the analog source was done well enough).

    i'm in no way criticizing digital classical, it is fantastic and where i live. but.....

  46. #46

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I’m curious, why don’t more audiophiles at least consider a basic vinyl rig? I’ve heard the regular reasons: too much care and feeding, I sold all my records, I’m not buying anymore vinyl, it’s too much hassle. But I personally don’t find that to be the case.

    Wouldn’t having a turntable in addition to a great digital setup be nice?

    The great thing about a turntable is that a great turntable today will be a great turntable in 10 or 20 years from now. Wouldn’t that be a good investment?



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I don't know why, Mike.

    Yes multiple sources can be fun and nice if the owner enjoys the use of those sources.

    Regarding investment: That would depend on the owner's idea of what an investment is in terms of adding a turntable. If they enjoy using the format, yes it can be a good investment.

    I have two Turntables, five tonearms, 8 cartridges, and 5 phonostages. I enjoy vinyl, the process of playing a record, and setting it up properly (which can be quick and easy, very difficult, or somewhere in-between depending on ones desire for complete optimization).

    Seriously, you mentioned the reasons you have heard for "why no turntable" and (Surprise! Surprise!) they are repeated in the post of most who have responded. It was inevitable that would be the response.

    Those who enjoy the process of playing an LP will gravitate to the format.

    Those who like playing the lower HF resolution PCM/CD will gravitate to that format as will those who prefer the higher HF resolution PCM/DSD will gravitate to that format. (Note: Lower and higher resolution was referenced to digital format choices. Vinyl playback is not, nor was not, to be included in that contrast statement)

    I believe it's a matter of preference for the most part. Sometimes, when a different preference doesn't fit our narrative, we humans tend to highlight/find the flaws and what-have-you to broadcast as a reason for others to move in our direction. What works better is to live and let live, so to speak. I tell audiophiles all the time to find your audio core, get comfortable with it, and let the rest go. As multiple forum posts tend to show, this is easier said than done.

    I also say I'm format agnostic. Meaning I can listen to any and all formats whether it is some form of digital, vinyl, tape, or whatever. While I won't go on and trumpet a format preference over another here, hopefully your readers will seek out and listen to the different music source choices and find the one, or ones, that speaks to them and enjoy the fruits of their decisions.

    Happy music listening to one and all, regardless of how it's delivered.

    Dre

  47. #47

    Re: Why no turntable?

    A great thread Mike!

    Why don't more people get into vinyl?

    1) So many components involved: turntable, motor, speed controller, arm, cartridge, cables, phono preamp, record cleaner

    2) Very tweaky: optimal gain, optimal "cartridge loading", optimal cartridge VTF, speed stability, bearing noise, bearing type, tracking errors & alignment, skating issues, choice of belt if belt-driven, more significant motor noise issues if direct-driven, hum and other noise issues, VTA/SRA differences per LP, acoustic feedback issues, platter material, platter-to-LP interface (e.g. "mat"), record clamps and periphery rings, vacuum holddowns, platter mass & inertia, acoustic signature of all materials involved including damping materials, cartridge bodies/cantilever materials/stylus shapes/stylus materials, azimuth, MC vs MM or other, cartridge output level, unipivot arms vs gimbaled vs linear trackers, deep vs shallow record cleaning, low-numbered LPs sounding arguably better than later pressings, record thickness and weight, stylus wear, surface noise, pops and ticks, a whole bunch of very bad pressings, cables cables and more cables all with varying degrees of signal loss and noise rejection (both of which are extremely critical for this application), arm rigidity and resonances, arm geometry (e.g. length) and how many can really set up an arm correctly, underlying support platforms ... there really is no end

    3) Cost: very expensive to get the most out of vinyl, and totally disproportionate to tape which arguably can sound even better and is in many cases the true source of truth

    The positives: truly hi-resolution sound, showcases superiority of hi-res digital recordings transcribed to LP over any redbook versions on CD. In this respect, I differ widely and wildly in opinion than my friend Al M.
    Analog: VPI Aries 3, custom isolation/Magnetically stabilized JMW 10.5i/Ortofon A90/Modded & shielded Pass XP-25 Digital: Spectral 3000SL/Heavily modded Alpha DAC Amplification: Spectral DMC-30SV/DMA-500AR Speakers: Heavily modded MartinLogan (custom Mundorf xover, cabling, woofers; structural mods)/Modded REL Cabling: Shielded MIT Oracle 50ic,MA-X/Oracle 90.1 Power: MIT Z-Strips, Magnum Z-Traps; Shunyata Black Mamba CX HC cords, Typhon

  48. #48
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Silicon Valley
    Posts
    2,361

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Saturday night. Time for another non-stop 5-6 hours of excellent sounding music on random shuffle.
    Bud

    Lumin X1
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for preamp, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.

  49. #49

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by ack View Post
    A great thread Mike!

    Why don't more people get into vinyl?

    1) So many components involved: turntable, motor, speed controller, arm, cartridge, cables, phono preamp, record cleaner

    2) Very tweaky: optimal gain, optimal "cartridge loading", optimal cartridge VTF, speed stability, bearing noise, tracking errors & alignment, skating issues, choice of belt if belt-driven, more significant motor noise issues if direct-driven, hum and other noise issues, VTA/SRA differences per LP, acoustic feedback issues, platter material, platter-to-LP interface (e.g. "mat"), record clamps and periphery rings, vacuum holddowns, platter mass & inertia, acoustic signature of all materials involved including damping materials, cartridge bodies/cantilever materials/stylus shapes/stylus materials, azimuth, MC vs MM or other, cartridge output level, unipivot arms vs gimbaled vs linear trackers, deep vs shallow record cleaning, low-numbered LPs sounding arguably better than later pressings, record thickness and weight, stylus wear, surface noise, pops and ticks, a whole bunch of very bad pressings, cables cables and more cables all with varying degrees of signal loss and noise rejection (both of which are extremely critical for this application), arm rigidity and resonances, arm geometry (e.g. length) and how many can really set up an arm correctly, underlying support platforms ... there really is no end

    3) Cost: very expensive to get the most out of vinyl, and totally disproportionate to tape which arguably can sound even better and is in many cases the true source of truth

    The positives: truly hi-resolution sound, showcases superiority of hi-res digital recordings transcribed to LP over any redbook versions on CD. In this respect, I differ widely and wildly in opinion than my friend Al M.
    When you say truly high resolution sound.

    How does one define that ? In the analog world.

  50. #50

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdp632 View Post
    When you say truly high resolution sound.

    How does one define that ? In the analog world.
    There is a naturalness, ease, instrumental body, expanse of soundstage, purity of timbre, presence, and dynamism that you cannot get from lower-res media - at least I have not heard it. Vinyl is a very expensive bridge between tape and digital.

    I have spent years modifying my analog and especially digital, bringing the latter lately to a very high level with fascinating results from redbook, yet, when I listen to vinyl, the increase in realism is quite obvious. I get some fascinating sounds from FM, digital and vinyl - and listen to all of them for long periods of time - but there is no mistaking which one is significantly better.
    Analog: VPI Aries 3, custom isolation/Magnetically stabilized JMW 10.5i/Ortofon A90/Modded & shielded Pass XP-25 Digital: Spectral 3000SL/Heavily modded Alpha DAC Amplification: Spectral DMC-30SV/DMA-500AR Speakers: Heavily modded MartinLogan (custom Mundorf xover, cabling, woofers; structural mods)/Modded REL Cabling: Shielded MIT Oracle 50ic,MA-X/Oracle 90.1 Power: MIT Z-Strips, Magnum Z-Traps; Shunyata Black Mamba CX HC cords, Typhon

Page 1 of 11 123456 ... LastLast
AudioShark - The Best High End Audio Discussion forum.

AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.

The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.

At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.

We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!

Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com

Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.

Sincerely,
The Audioshark.org Team

Why no turntable?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •