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  1. #201
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Most of those telling you not to do it, don’t presently own a turntable. Hmmm. And memories are a fickle thing. I don’t know who “Joe” is, but VPI is a real good one. Get a Prime and a nice Ortofon or similar cart and you’re in your budget.

    Setup is hard? No. And it’s something you should learn anyway. Reading glasses help. Buy and watch this video and you’ll have a new skill —> https://www.amazon.com/21st-Century-.../dp/B000HA4WU2

    There are dozens of videos online as well like this one:

    https://youtu.be/VfJnMtolAWo

    But I would definitely get the Fremer one and watch it. That being said, I’m sure your dealer will set it up for you, but frankly, it’s really a skill you want to know yourself. You will need a few basic tools and you’re on your way. VPI’s come with a scale.

    Phonostage? SimAudio makes one for about $300. iFi too (iPhono 2). You can go up from there. The Manley Chinook is a killer for the $$.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Thanks.

    When the day comes, I welcome the challenge of setup, as compulsive and detailed as we are I don’t see it being an issue and have backup dealer options.


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    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R w/4point 11 arm | Kuzma 50 Cartridge
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  2. #202

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Yep, when I got my first Clearaudio turntable and a basic tube phonostage, I did a basic setup of the cartridge by watching every video I could find and reading every article to understand what’s what. It sounded ok. Can’t say it beat digital in any way. Sure it sounded a bit warmer, more colored, euphonic. It was fun for a few months. Then I got tired of the color and euphony.

    SME 20.2 with an SME IV and a Dynavector XXII followed to “improve” the vinyl experience. As did a VPI Typhoon record cleaner, Dr.Feickert protractor, a Fozgometer, a whole bunch of cleaning brushes, fluids and other paraphernalia. I had drawers full of them...

    It did sound better, at this point I felt it was much closer than my digital rig, very enjoyable but still not quite at the level of digital in terms of resolution and effortless dynamic contrast that I clearly heard from my digital rig and Wilson Sophia speakers were capable of.

    Then came the obsessive thoughts I need a better phonostage, better phono cables, better protractor, better cartridge and “music” listening sessions turned into an obsessive analyzing of the sound. The pops and scratches of preowned vinyl drove me nuts, the cleaner and antistatic tools did not help, the $45-50 a pop for new vinyl was a hit or miss since so many are pressed from a digital recording not analog tapes, some were just pure crap..

    All in all after easily spending more than $25k total on the vinyl experience and perhaps around $7500 for vinyl, I boxed it all up, sold everything and liberated myself from it all.

    Kudos to those that have the patience, stay the course and enjoy vinyl. I get it, it’s just not for me anymore. Between Tidal/Roon and my small collection of SACD, I find all the music I have time to listen to without putting on my lab coat and engaging in the required rituals of worshiping vinyl at the altar of the record cleaner.

  3. #203
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    I respect he is an expert in the field. I was however a little put off by a Fremer video when he bragged about finding an old lady selling her departed husbands records for 50 cents or so when he know the records were worth $50 or so. He was so happy to rip the old unknowing lady off. I would hope a respectable man would say something. Anyone want to respond it's the sellers responsibility???? What happened to morals.
    First Sound Mark3SI preamp. Audion Black Shadow 845 SET Monoblocks. Mojo Audio Deja Vu Server. Mojo Audio Mystic 3 DAC. Linear Solution Ethernet Switch. Gigafoil with LPS. STST Motus II TT with Vertere SG1 arm, Hana ML Cartridge, Allnic H1201 phono pre. Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Horn speakers with Mundord Supreme oil caps. Power via 10 awg Oyaide cable from panel to custom distribution strip feeding front end. Oyaide dedicated10 AWG branch circuits from panel to each amp. Inakustik speaker and interconnect cables, Genesis Interconnect.
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  4. #204
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    Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Another one bits the dust ...

    I could never go back. All the hassles associated with vinyl would interfere with my enjoyment of music. I hear people say the hassles of digital , and I wonder how in the world is digital more of a hassle then caring for and setting up a turntable and keeping said table from ruining my albums.... and storage of those albums and record cleaning machines and isolating that table from sound waves in the room, and.... and... and... and then my head starts spinning...

    especially when I know how straight forward and simple digital can be... much less so if you do not depend on streaming and "services" but instead keep your music locally.
    I already have assembled a killer system, and it’s my picture further up showing the iPad on the couch revealing convenience.

    Audio to me is a Hobby, and gives me something more to play with.

    Some guys have motorcycles, guns, woodworking, etc, and I chose Audio and guitar. I love music ever since my Uncle gave me his best up copy of Axis Bold as Love album sometime in the late 70s he bought when it came out.

    Fremer is direct as a lot of people from the East Coast. I was born and lived in Boston proper and all my family is there. Being out in Seattle for over thirty years it was easy to learn everyone has different mannerisms.

    Lennon taught us “All you need is love”


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  5. #205
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    The only problem with the Fremer one is that he is a pompous ass ... I admit to not watching this dvd/video, however I have seen videos and read many a review. I watched the video where speakers were being delivered to his "listening space" (I can't in good conscience call it a listening room). I have never seen a bigger mess in my life and the way he treats insanely expensive gear is simply overwhelming, frustrating, irritating, and above all else disrespectful.
    you concluded that all from a video? I suppose you were able to look into his heart as well...when I saw him last he had some choice things to say about you, lemme tell you

  6. #206
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Yep, when I got my first Clearaudio turntable and a basic tube phonostage, I did a basic setup of the cartridge by watching every video I could find and reading every article to understand what’s what. It sounded ok. Can’t say it beat digital in any way. Sure it sounded a bit warmer, more colored, euphonic. It was fun for a few months. Then I got tired of the color and euphony.

    SME 20.2 with an SME IV and a Dynavector XXII followed to “improve” the vinyl experience. As did a VPI Typhoon record cleaner, Dr.Feickert protractor, a Fozgometer, a whole bunch of cleaning brushes, fluids and other paraphernalia. I had drawers full of them...

    It did sound better, at this point I felt it was much closer than my digital rig, very enjoyable but still not quite at the level of digital in terms of resolution and effortless dynamic contrast that I clearly heard from my digital rig and Wilson Sophia speakers were capable of.

    Then came the obsessive thoughts I need a better phonostage, better phono cables, better protractor, better cartridge and “music” listening sessions turned into an obsessive analyzing of the sound. The pops and scratches of preowned vinyl drove me nuts, the cleaner and antistatic tools did not help, the $45-50 a pop for new vinyl was a hit or miss since so many are pressed from a digital recording not analog tapes, some were just pure crap..

    All in all after easily spending more than $25k total on the vinyl experience and perhaps around $7500 for vinyl, I boxed it all up, sold everything and liberated myself from it all.

    Kudos to those that have the patience, stay the course and enjoy vinyl. I get it, it’s just not for me anymore. Between Tidal/Roon and my small collection of SACD, I find all the music I have time to listen to without putting on my lab coat and engaging in the required rituals of worshiping vinyl at the altar of the record cleaner.
    I think you hit the nail on the head Octopus. I believe your description is pretty accurate of vinyl, AND could be applied to digital too. Have you read all Ultrafast has done with his digital.

    I have a basic vinyl setup and it's nothing compared to my digital. I even had it professionally set up. I could make it better, but its so much work. And money. Just like digital, everything matters. Even the cables in the tone arm. Oddly Ed might actually enjoy the challenge. I could see him obsessing it to great sonic benefit.

    There is one benefit to vinyl. There are quite a few old album in the Jazz, Blues and Classical that are not on digital. Rock or anything more modern is pretty much all on digital and many times produced very well for the medium. Records also end. Sometimes I find digital drones on. For that reason I have set Roon up to end at the finish of an Album. I don't let it start playing songs I may like.
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  7. #207

    Re: Why no turntable?

    I
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    He has always been kind to me and you know what? When we launched the Florida Audio Expo, Jason and Michael from Stereophile jumped right in to cover it and all the guys from Part Time Audiophile and Enjoy The Music too. The guys from TAS told us to go pound sand. Michael gave several seminars that people are still talking about today. I don’t forget those things.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The bottom line is MF is a good man who is always willing to help people. Michael was also a leader in keeping LPs alive by being a spokesperson for analog. The people I see taking pot shots at MF are petty, jealous, and most likely have no analog sources.
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  8. #208
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    ...The bottom line is MF is a good man who is always willing to help people. Michael was also a leader in keeping LPs alive by being a spokesperson for analog.
    This is not inconsistent with his also being a pompous ass
    Rob
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  9. #209

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    This is not inconsistent with his also being a pompous ass
    So you agree that MF is a pompous ass? I don’t share that opinion.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  10. #210
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    I like Stereophile also... I have a subscription and a friend is a reviewer for the magazine. Mr. Fremer has always seemed like he has quite an attitude for my liking. I am also sure seeing the mess he keeps all of that fantastic equipment in really rubs me the wrong way. I also do not like many of the pieces has has wrote. Seem liked he had far too much attitude for my liking.

    Then again, if I ever met him he may come across completely different . Obviously if I have had the same experiences with Mr. Fremer as Mike has then I am fairly certain I would feel differently about him.
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  11. #211
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    you concluded that all from a video? I suppose you were able to look into his heart as well...when I saw him last he had some choice things to say about you, lemme tell you
    I admit to being an ass .
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  12. #212
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Then again, if I ever met him he may come across completely different
    I've met him a couple times and he's always been pleasant. Especially if you like vinyl ;-).

  13. #213
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    So you agree that MF is a pompous ass? I don’t share that opinion.
    Not at all; in my limited dealings with him he has been an enthusiastic but reasoned (and reasonable) audiophile. I'm merely pointing out that a person can be arrogant and pompous (and therefore likely as ass as well) but still be helpful and friendly; in my profession there are a lot of people like that.
    Rob
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  14. #214
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    I already have assembled a killer system, and it’s my picture further up showing the iPad on the couch revealing convenience.

    Audio to me is a Hobby, and gives me something more to play with.

    Some guys have motorcycles, guns, woodworking, etc, and I chose Audio and guitar. I love music ever since my Uncle gave me his best up copy of Axis Bold as Love album sometime in the late 70s he bought when it came out.

    Fremer is direct as a lot of people from the East Coast. I was born and lived in Boston proper and all my family is there. Being out in Seattle for over thirty years it was easy to learn everyone has different mannerisms.

    Lennon taught us “All you need is love”


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    I grew up in upstate New York (Binghamton, and when I was older Albany and Syracuse). When I moved to California it was a little hard getting used to. People didn't enjoy my "East Coast Sarcasm" as much as we did back east.

    A guy at Vandenberg that partnered on several projects was from New Jersey. I think half the people on our team were shocked when they heard us talking to each other. Some of the most enjoyable years working that I remember!

    So I understand and I get his being direct... but that is a little different then being condescending and disrespectful; that is the feeling I get.
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

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    ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

  15. #215

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    I grew up in upstate New York (Binghamton, and when I was older Albany and Syracuse). When I moved to California it was a little hard getting used to. People didn't enjoy my "East Coast Sarcasm" as much as we did back east. A guy at Vandenberg that partnered on several projects was from New Jersey. I think half the people on our team were shocked when they heard us talking to each other. Some of the most enjoyable years working that I remember!

    So I understand and I get his being direct... but that is a little different then being condescending and disrespectful; that is the feeling I get.
    That's the "feeling" you get? You are the one being condescending and disrespectful because you think he treats his gear with no respect and you don't like his housekeeping:

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    The only problem with the Fremer one is that he is a pompous ass ... I admit to not watching this dvd/video, however I have seen videos and read many a review. I watched the video where speakers were being delivered to his "listening space" (I can't in good conscience call it a listening room). I have never seen a bigger mess in my life and the way he treats insanely expensive gear is simply overwhelming, frustrating, irritating, and above all else disrespectful.
    It's a lot easier to keep things clean and orderly when you have a small system in a small room than when you are famous reviewer like MF who constantly has a parade of gear coming into and out of his system. Not to mention his massive LP collection. Maybe you should be in charge of the room police and issue citations to rooms that don't meet your standards.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  16. #216
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    That's the "feeling" you get? You are the one being condescending and disrespectful because you think he treats his gear with no respect and you don't like his housekeeping:



    It's a lot easier to keep things clean and orderly when you have a small system in a small room than when you are famous reviewer like MF who constantly has a parade of gear coming into and out of his system. Not to mention his massive LP collection. Maybe you should be in charge of the room police and issue citations to rooms that don't meet your standards.
    Yea, whatever... there you go again... creating an issue where one does not exist.... maybe try reading everything I wrote before ripping into me. But then again that is your modus operandi.

    I refuse to get pulled in further... You are right Mr. Fremer is a God... I bow down to your superior intellect... I should immediately throw away all my digital gear and worship on the vinyl alter with Michael Fremer blessing our vinyl wonderfulness....
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

    “One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong”
    "You can't use reason to convince anyone out of an argument that they didn't use reason to get into"
    ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

  17. #217

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Yea, whatever... there you go again... creating an issue where one does not exist.... maybe try reading everything I wrote before ripping into me. But then again that is your modus operandi.

    I refuse to get pulled in further... You are right Mr. Fremer is a God... I bow down to your superior intellect... I should immediately throw away all my digital gear and worship on the vinyl alter with Michael Fremer blessing our vinyl wonderfulness....
    You created the issue about Fremer. I just responded to your harsh words about Fremer. And for the record, I never suggested you get a turntable. I could care less about trying to convince anyone who loves digital and hates analog to buy a turntable. Your statement about throwing out your digital gear and worshiping on the alter of vinyl is just more nonsense.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  18. #218
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    ...and now back to our regularly scheduled programming (hopefully)...
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  19. #219

    Re: Why no turntable?

    So a serious question, can a record be played in zero gravity of space? What if the astronauts decide they want to bring a turntable and some of their favorite albums on a long mission to Mars?

  20. #220
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    So a serious question, can a record be played in zero gravity of space? What if the astronauts decide they want to bring a turntable and some of their favorite albums on a long mission to Mars?
    Not allowed. Weight limits.
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  21. #221
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    So a serious question, can a record be played in zero gravity of space? What if the astronauts decide they want to bring a turntable and some of their favorite albums on a long mission to Mars?
    I would guess no because a turntable is dependent on gravity to put the proper force on the needle in the groove. I have no knowledge of this but I would speculate that some clever company could mechanically put the correct force on the stylus in the groove (maybe some company already does????). But then you would have to consider spinning the record at the correct speed in zero gravity.... and you better clamp that sucker down ....
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

    “One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong”
    "You can't use reason to convince anyone out of an argument that they didn't use reason to get into"
    ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

  22. #222

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    I would guess no because a turntable is dependent on gravity to put the proper force on the needle in the groove. I have no knowledge of this but I would speculate that some clever company could mechanically put the correct force on the stylus in the groove (maybe some company already does????). But then you would have to consider spinning the record at the correct speed in zero gravity.... and you better clamp that sucker down ....
    It's actually been done before, at least in "Near Space" check it out. https://youtu.be/z1751oqIKYc

    Now, of course a proper "adustable" VTF dial with "presets" such as Earth, Moon, IO, Mars, Jupiter, etc.. would be very convenient since the gravity is oh so different everywhere... It would be perfectly OK for the turntable to float around in zero gravity, right side up or upside down as there is no reference point in space.... Theoretically it should work just fine. No need for vibration isolation, no footfall to worry about, etc. The speed is an interesting question as "time" reference is different due to gravitational fields of heavenly bodies. Time slows near bodies with tons of gravity so better compensate for that too. The 33 1/3, 45, 78 may not work very well... But I think the aliens will figure it out when they find the Voyager golden record that's been up there in space traveling since 1977...

  23. #223
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    That is great. I figured they could make something specifically designed to keep the correct force no matter the environment. I can see it now... the perfect tracking force table for only $100,000... orders your now!
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  24. #224

    Why no turntable?

    I’m vinyl/ turntable illiterate. What would be a turntable setup (hopefully at a modest price) at least on par with MSB Discrete + Roon Nucleus?

  25. #225
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by kzhtoo View Post
    I’m vinyl/ turntable illiterate. What would be a turntable setup (hopefully at a modest price) at least on par with MSB Discrete + Roon Nucleus?
    VPI HW40, VPI Prime Signature, Avid Volvere/Volvere SP, Brinkmann Bardo, Acoustic Signature Double X, etc.

    Example:

    VPI Prime Signature - $6k
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    Phonostage of your choice - $3k
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  26. #226

    Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    VPI HW40, VPI Prime Signature, Avid Volvere/Volvere SP, Brinkmann Bardo, Acoustic Signature Double X, etc.

    Example:

    VPI Prime Signature - $6k
    VPI Gimbal Tomearm - included
    Ortofon Cadenza Black Cart - $2800
    Phonostage of your choice - $3k
    Thanks a lot, Mike. Why no turntable? Not so bad price wise, better than I expected. Under $15k.

    Also, after quite a number of posts on this thread, I hope people do get that you’re suggesting turntable as an option, not to replace their beloved digital setup. With Tidal and MSB, I won’t be able to get away from them even if I try, but spinning records one or two nights a week when the mood is right to enjoy this side of the hobby sounds enticing to me.

  27. #227
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    I think most of us realize that it is not to replace digital, but instead as another source and path that could be taken.

    At one time I had a very nice (in my view) turntable setup and after getting back into this crazy hobby a few years ago I have thought about adding a turntable. Then I decide that whatever I put in to the table could be spent improving my digital or another area that I have been listening to lately, my portable setup.

    I am also leaning towards convenience any more. A table certainly isn't that.
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  28. #228
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    Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by kzhtoo View Post
    Thanks a lot, Mike. Why no turntable? Not so bad price wise, better than I expected. Under $15k.

    Also, after quite a number of posts on this thread, I hope people do get that you’re suggesting turntable as an option, not to replace their beloved digital setup. With Tidal and MSB, I won’t be able to get away from them even if I try, but spinning records one or two nights a week when the mood is right to enjoy this side of the hobby sounds enticing to me.
    Absolutely. You want both. There’s many albums I can’t get on vinyl. But there are many albums superior on vinyl compared to the digital version. It’s nice to have both and choose. Let me give you an example, Sade Diamond Life. It’s not the best on digital, but the Japanese pressing I have on vinyl is incredible. Night and day better.


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  29. #229
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    And to add to this discussion, I wonder why no tone arms are mentioned?

    for example, the DP-6 and DP-8 from moerch.dk

  30. #230
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Interesting for a basic table https://www.schiit.com/products/sol
    2chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)

  31. #231
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    My brother wants to buy that one. He thinks I should get one too. It does looks nice.

    What carts would go well with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CPP View Post
    Interesting for a basic table https://www.schiit.com/products/sol
    Last edited by joeinid; September 7, 2019 at 07:18 PM.
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  32. #232
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeinid View Post
    What carts would go well with it?
    They'll be at RMAF, presumably with a cartridge installed, so keep an eye out.
    Amazing that they can sell a domestic produced product like that at that price, direct sales notwithstanding. Bit more than "basic" imo.

  33. #233
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    They'll be at RMAF, presumably with a cartridge installed, so keep an eye out.
    Amazing that they can sell a domestic produced product like that at that price, direct sales notwithstanding. Bit more than "basic" imo.
    Agree..........looks very nice....
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  34. #234
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeinid View Post
    My brother wants to buy that one. He thinks I should get one too. It does looks nice.

    What carts would go well with it?
    A Ortofon red for starters, inexpensive or jump up in price. . It will be interesting to read the RMAF reports from those that actually saw it and heard it when matched to a decent phono amp.
    2chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)

  35. #235
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Cart recommendations in the FAQs.
    NORMAN
    Custom PC with Memory Player Software Suite/ Modded Denon CD transport>Lampi GG1 (and sometimes PACIFIC) DHT tube Dac> Rowen 850W Isolating Transformer/ Rowen SS Preamp and PA1 monoblocs/Lampi Silk power cond. with Phase flipper> Heil AMT KITHARA & Syrinx in parallel hookup. Swiss cables (Reference line) for PC/interconnects and speaker cables. Goldmund Sweetcord PC. FTA Callisto unpowered USB cable. Basic analog: vintage Lenco L78 TT with Rowen mat, Denon MM cart, iFi iPhono2 with 15v Hynes SR3 LPSU. Synology 12 TB NAS. 2nd system:KenWin Bluetooth speaker 3rd system TBI Millemnium amp with Aulos speakers and SB Duo hookup.

  36. #236
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Sorry I didn’t have the years needed to read this whole thread. I do own a table. When I look at my vinyl collection, I recall all the parties and good times I had 40 years ago. Invariably my turntable and vinyl came along. Oftentimes I would bring my vinyl to the party, not knowing (or caring) what table was being used. I also recall all the turntables and cartridges I have owned. Most of my record collection saw every one of them. From my original AR/Pickering rig to now.

    In recent times, when I spend my audio stash, I contemplate the best place to advance the sound of my rig. Analog rarely enters the equation. Firstly it is a very expensive road to travel down. Secondly, all those party scratches, grunge, pops and noise will always be tagging along for the ride. Let’s not forget how much badly recorded vinyl was out there in analog’s hey day. Additionally all present day recordings are digitally recorded and mastered anyway. The A to D, and D to A conversions are in there somewhere.
    == Joe ==

  37. #237

    Re: Why no turntable?

    For me, the music comes first. Some music is only attainable on vinyl, SACD, CD, dsf even, the system should be able to play everything. Nearly a 40 year absence, vinyl is back at home, mainly for reasons of nostalgia, but have noticed that vocals and drums are more realistic with vinyl than digital of the same music, typically CD. Vinyl has more surface noise, partnered with revealing electronics, it's a balance to be sure not to be irritated by clicks and pops. To my ear, the equipment is out of the equation, and reliant on the recordings, I recall a phrase printed on early CD sleeves that's very applicable "subject to limitations of the source".

    I found that wiping the record with a microfibre cloth, rotating the record and holding the cloth on both sides, removes a lost of dust and doesn't attract new dust. Tip: The MOFI anti static brush is useless, it charges the vinyl to very high voltage values, sometimes the record is stuck to the platter.

    Vinyl setup
    Technics SL-1210 GR & Ortofon Blue MM -> RG-6 cable -> Accuphase A-2450 -> Accuphase C-2420

  38. #238
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Another very good starter type table that Ed (UltraFast69) found and that received quite good ratings in The Absolute Sound is U-Turn.

    There are many configuration options including built in or external phono stage. The U-Turn Orbit Special with the built in phono stage cost me $529.

    https://uturnaudio.com/products/orbit-special-turntable

    The special uses a solid hardwood plinth (maple or walnut) while their standard models use MDF (a variety of colors are available). It also comes with the acrylic platter, an Ortofon 2M Red cartridge, and the optional cue lever. You can do a custom build and get a Blue version cartridge.

    The Special is normal $459 and the built in phono-preamp ads $70. The same pre is sold external for $89. The internal can be by-passed if you decided to try other phono stages.

    Dam nice table and great find by Ed. I decided to pick one up to dip my toe back in the vinyl water; it seems to be a very nice table.

    Here is what U-Turn is all about:

    "
    U-Turn Audio is an independent turntable maker located in Woburn, MA. Our mission is to make great sound more accessible.

    We were started by three music lovers who believe you shouldn’t have to overpay for a great listening experience. In college, we found that our budgets were at odds with our ears. We had to choose between overpriced turntables that we couldn’t afford and cheap turntables that we couldn’t bear to listen to. So we decided to build our own.

    In 2012, we launched a Kickstarter campaign for the Orbit Turntable, “an all-analog turntable for today’s vinyl listener.” The feedback was overwhelmingly positive, and we have been building turntables and taking names ever since.

    By doing all of our own design and engineering, keeping our manufacturing in-house, and engaging with customers directly, we’re able to provide high-quality turntables at affordable prices. We value simple design, quality craftsmanship, and personal customer service.

    We do what we do because better music makes for a better life. Buying and owning a turntable should be fun and easy, and it should leave money in your pocket for what really matters – the music."
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

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  39. #239
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Another very good starter type table that Ed (UltraFast69) found and that received quite good ratings in The Absolute Sound is U-Turn.

    There are many configuration options including built in or external phono stage. The U-Turn Orbit Special with the built in phono stage cost me $529.

    https://uturnaudio.com/products/orbit-special-turntable

    The special uses a solid hardwood plinth (maple or walnut) while their standard models use MDF (a variety of colors are available). It also comes with the acrylic platter, an Ortofon 2M Red cartridge, and the optional cue lever. You can do a custom build and get a Blue version cartridge.

    The Special is normal $459 and the built in phono-preamp ads $70. The same pre is sold external for $89. The internal can be by-passed if you decided to try other phono stages.

    Dam nice table and great find by Ed. I decided to pick one up to dip my toe back in the vinyl water; it seems to be a very nice table.

    Here is what U-Turn is all about:

    "
    U-Turn Audio is an independent turntable maker located in Woburn, MA. Our mission is to make great sound more accessible.

    We were started by three music lovers who believe you shouldn’t have to overpay for a great listening experience. In college, we found that our budgets were at odds with our ears. We had to choose between overpriced turntables that we couldn’t afford and cheap turntables that we couldn’t bear to listen to. So we decided to build our own.

    In 2012, we launched a Kickstarter campaign for the Orbit Turntable, “an all-analog turntable for today’s vinyl listener.” The feedback was overwhelmingly positive, and we have been building turntables and taking names ever since.

    By doing all of our own design and engineering, keeping our manufacturing in-house, and engaging with customers directly, we’re able to provide high-quality turntables at affordable prices. We value simple design, quality craftsmanship, and personal customer service.

    We do what we do because better music makes for a better life. Buying and owning a turntable should be fun and easy, and it should leave money in your pocket for what really matters – the music."
    We’ve jumped in Randy!

    I just love U-Turns attitude!



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  40. #240
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    How does the U-Turn Special compare to, say, the Pro-ject Debut Carbon or Rega Planar 1?


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  41. #241
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    Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    How does the U-Turn Special compare to, say, the Pro-ject Debut Carbon or Rega Planar 1?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Don’t know, for me I came across U Turn learning about it from RMAF, buying it, then reading about it on Analog Planet and now the current Absolute Sound where all 3 you refer to are listed in the buyers guide.

    I like that U Turn is US built and Rega is built in the UK.

    Project shares the same Ortofon 2M red cartridge as U Turn Orbit Special, and Rega mounts it’s own line.

    Pro-Ject does have a Carbon arm, and I’m a carbon nut.

    U Turn Orbit Special sits right in the middle between the two in terms of price, with Rega coming in at $595 and Pro-Ject at $399.

    Don’t think you can make a bad choice.


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  42. #242
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Sean

    If you are actively looking for a TT in that price range you might want to look at the Music Hall MMF-3.3 at Underwood HiFi. It looks like it could be a step up from these three and with the current sale of $150 off of both finishes it might be worth considering. It is also made by Project for Music Hall per their specs.

    https://musichallaudio.com/product/mmf-3-3-turntable/
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  43. #243
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Thank you both. I inherited some vinyl and would like to be able to enjoy them. I need to check out the Music Hall. I see plenty of ink on the Rega and Debut Carbon, and the recent traffic here on the U-Turn has me intrigued, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    Don’t know, for me I came across U Turn learning about it from RMAF, buying it, then reading about it on Analog Planet and now the current Absolute Sound where all 3 you refer to are listed in the buyers guide.

    I like that U Turn is US built and Rega is built in the UK.

    Project shares the same Ortofon 2M red cartridge as U Turn Orbit Special, and Rega mounts it’s own line.

    Pro-Ject does have a Carbon arm, and I’m a carbon nut.

    U Turn Orbit Special sits right in the middle between the two in terms of price, with Rega coming in at $595 and Pro-Ject at $399.

    Don’t think you can make a bad choice.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Sean

    If you are actively looking for a TT in that price range you might want to look at the Music Hall MMF-3.3 at Underwood HiFi. It looks like it could be a step up from these three and with the current sale of $150 off of both finishes it might be worth considering. It is also made by Project for Music Hall per their specs.

    https://musichallaudio.com/product/mmf-3-3-turntable/



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  44. #244
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    All 4 appear to be solid tables for real reasonable prices.

    A couple reasons I decided on the U-Turn Orbit Special are the solid hardwood plinth, acrylic platter, the optional cue lever, coming with the dust cover, and for me the built in phono stage. A complete package, nothing to add. Also, compared to some others in this range the U-Turn has more upgrade options. I also appreciate American made and the story behind U-Turn!

    I am sure all 4 are good choices. I know both Ed and I are happy with the Special!
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  45. #245
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    I wanted to put forth some observations after having a basic turntable in operation for about a week. For the past week I have used vinyl almost exclusively to give it a good run in.

    These are my observations; your millage can and probably will be vary:

    Convenience to play: Vinyl you have to “unpack” the record from the cover, jacket, inner sleeve, being very careful on handling and then clean both the stylus and record. Digital you pick the album you want from Roon and click play – advantage Digital

    Convenience to store: Vinyl you have to careful re-pack in the inner sleeve, jacket, outer sleeve and store the albums upright. Digital you simply keep the files on your server, and presumably organized in some type of file management scheme – advantage Digital

    Fun factor: Vinyl you have the artwork, footnotes, photos, etc., that came with the jacket. Physically holding the jacket, etc., is very nice. Digital you can have a ton of meta data, reviews, upcoming concert listings, etc., in Roon. Having the original jacket is very fun and gives me the retro feeling from back in the day – advantage Vinyl

    Durability: Vinyl you have to care for and store the records properly. With proper care, and being rather picky such as I am, vinyl should last a very very long time. For digital, computers and hard drives can and do fail. Backups and storage are an absolute must. I retain multiple backups for everything. Therefore, protecting the digital music for the long haul is involved and requires a good sense of organization. This is a tough call, but – advantage Vinyl

    Cost of entry: This I would say is a surprise, with vinyl a good very solid entry turntable (such as several mentioned in recent discussions) is much lower than similar digital. Tables such as the U-Turn Orbit Special with phono stage built in are just over $500. From the dozen or more DACs that I have had in my re-entry into this crazy hobby, I can say in my view the cost of worthy entry, DAC, server, etc., is much much higher with digital. The software alone that I use costs more than the turntable. Discussions of moving to high end systems, I assume is about the same, both are F@#$ nuts – advantage Vinyl

    Playing various songs/playlists: Vinyl picking out specific songs to play is not an easy feat. Creating a playlist is next to impossible. With digital this is a piece of cake – advantage Digital

    Sound: An unfair category because I have an entry level table with quite a bit higher digital setup (our club considers my digital one of the best in our club). However, comparing both using my setup I would say the digital has much more dynamics, clarity, and accuracy, especially in the vocal range. It is not all bad news for vinyl though. Two areas that seem to really shine, acoustic music seems to be very inviting on the vinyl, just a richness in the instrument’s musicality, for me mainly noticeable on acoustic guitar. Also, a big surprise for me in the separation and sound stage. Subtleties, very low-level background are very easy to pick out. A couple of Pink Floyd albums made this something I really appreciated. A wider and deeper sound stage can be heard on my vinyl, but the over all clarity and dynamics I have to say – advantage Digital

    Background quietness: With digital the background is completely black; I have zero noise. The pops and clicks, even on very good and even on brand new albums still bother me. My vinylphile friends claim that you get to a point where you do not even notice it. So far, I am nowhere near that point – advantage Digital

    Sound stage: I have to re-visit this one because it has surprised me. Vinyl has great separation, subtleties, and depth of field that was not expected. I needed to give recognition to this because it is rather important to me, and to be fair to pick out what I have seen as a great strength- advantage Vinyl

    So, there you have it, my initial impressions. It is enjoyable to play around with something new, or old, having fun with vinyl again. A few more step ups on the vinyl are coming. First, I have a Clearaudio record clamp coming early next week. This was highly recommended by a club member. I will also probably purchase a Blue stylus fairly soon. This appears to be a nice improvement over the Red. I may also play around with an external phono stage. A buddy has offered to loan me one of his. We will see. I have been impressed with the U-Turn's pre that came with the table so far. One of the great strengths of the U-Turn in the entry level is that up grading is something that can be done versus several other similarly prices tables.
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  46. #246
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Nice write up Randy. So many have claimed digital sounds better than vinyl for less money. You say vinyl is less than your digital, yet your digital still sounds better. IMO, your basic table with a $3,000 phono pre and a $800 or more cartridge will start to sonically equal your digital. Better tone arm cables and power cables to the phono pre will bring additional enhancements.

    IMOm what you are experiencing is similar to the guy with $8,000 in phono comparing it to his $1,100 dac fed by a laptop. That person will tell you the dynamics, clarity, detail and noise floor are lower with vinyl.

    I spent a solid hour. Probanly 1.5 hours yesterday getting my Pivot toSpindle set. Then a protractor to set up the cartridge. Not sure I made anything better. On some records, notes or instruments pop different than on digital. Overall my digital has better bass and body. Richer and thicker tonally. I like that. The record is slightly shrill. My diamond seems to be 90*. If I drop it more it will be dragging backwards. I'm not sure what to do. Part of the problem I find with vinyl, is when you change it, you cant go back so easy. I could meas with my cart more, but I cant put it back where it was before. I can try, but its not like changing a filer in HQplayer, assessing and changing it back. On vinyl it's all mechanical. It's as good as you are at touching it. That can be seen as fun. I find it frustrating. The hands on is fun. The lack of overall control is the fruatrating part
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  47. #247

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Nice write up Randy. I personally think that when you factor in the cost of the LPs, digital is far cheaper than analog. One can have access to millions of (digital) albums immediately for the cost of a single LP.

  48. #248

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Yes, nice write-up, Randy.

    My experience is that it takes a *very* expensive vinyl set-up to compete with my digital set-up for $ 6.5K: Simaudio Moon 260 CD transport > MIT SL Matrix Plus AES/EBU cable > Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC.

    The phono stage alone can cost more than that. So I don't see a cheaper entry price to great analog.

    As for soundstage, I have never heard analog in my system, so I have no direct comparison. Yet my analog loving friends love my large and deep soundstage with its 3D palpability and great separation. I do have a very good and tricked out room.

    Durability of digital: I don't have files but CDs. So vinyl has no advantage here. If anything, I don't have to fear slow degradation upon frequent replay.
    Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave

  49. #249
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Randy, nice job!

    Both have their merits, and to have both allows you options to enjoy the hobby.

    And you will make gains as you go up the ladder with cartridges, cables and isolation aside from Phonos, and if you are RCA Sutherland seems to have some decent lines.


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  50. #250
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Thank you for the kind remarks. That was basically my point, that currently my digital is more tricked out so I did not expect the vinyl to compete. I was simply pointing out the pros and cons.

    I also know that if I go up in vinyl then I will be to the point with having to mess around and fiddle with it. Some find that appealing, I do not.

    What I meant by entry level is that a table such as the U-Turn is pretty decent for very inexpensive. I know of nothing close to this level of performance in digital in this level price, considering DAC, source, playback software, etc. I then believe stepping to my level of digital is probably better but going to the high level would be up in the air, because I will never know. I will probably never go much beyond where I am at in vinyl. I am having fun, but my digital will be my main source.

    I actually do have some fairly nice cables on the table. Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7's which are worth more than the table ... I already had them so why would I not use them ...

    I believe a couple more tweaks and I will be good for now, but it is interesting to play around with.

    About the sound stage. Everyone I know consider the sound stage, depth, separation, image stability, etc., to be top notch on my digital. I was only commenting on the one thing that really stood out to me about this little vinyl setup!

    This is a very solid little table and for my use and purposes it will probably satisfy. I know of nothing in digital that I could make that statement about in this price level. But, the bottom line is, as a primary source the digital will remain king. The vinyl is not going to compete but I would not expect it to. But it is fun and it does show me a glimpse into what vinyl can be. But the quality with convenience is definitely proven to me for my digital. But it also shows some real positives for vinyl as well.

    It is for sure a personal preference and what someone enjoys the most. Some people love fiddling and tuning their vinyl. That is certainly ok. I enjoy listening and keeping the albums clean is the most that I want to play around with ....
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

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