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  1. #51

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    The most common issue I see is more fundamental. Lousy A2D converters used in studios. This in the past 5 years has really changed with the Merging A2D converters, but most used from 1981 to about 2015 went from bad to mediocre at best. Thankfully the newer ones are very good, but now we battle compression.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I agree --with the exception of Mike Moffats "Gain System" his rendering of Muddy Waters Folk Singer--still one of the benchmark Digital CD's.

    I knew Mike when this was being done and have couple of "beta" discs before the domestic run--the dynamic contrasts are superb.

    Track one will give your system a workout for any susceptibility to these

    Bruce

  2. #52

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by ack View Post
    A great thread Mike!
    Yes it is!

    Why don't more people get into vinyl?

    1) So many components involved: turntable, motor, speed controller, arm, cartridge, cables, phono preamp, record cleaner

    2) Very tweaky: optimal gain, optimal "cartridge loading", optimal cartridge VTF, speed stability, bearing noise, tracking errors & alignment, skating issues, choice of belt if belt-driven, more significant motor noise issues if direct-driven, hum and other noise issues, VTA/SRA differences per LP, acoustic feedback issues, platter material, platter-to-LP interface (e.g. "mat"), record clamps and periphery rings, vacuum holddowns, platter mass & inertia, acoustic signature of all materials involved including damping materials, cartridge bodies/cantilever materials/stylus shapes/stylus materials, azimuth, MC vs MM or other, cartridge output level, unipivot arms vs gimbaled vs linear trackers, deep vs shallow record cleaning, low-numbered LPs sounding arguably better than later pressings, record thickness and weight, stylus wear, surface noise, pops and ticks, a whole bunch of very bad pressings, cables cables and more cables all with varying degrees of signal loss and noise rejection (both of which are extremely critical for this application), arm rigidity and resonances, arm geometry (e.g. length) and how many can really set up an arm correctly, underlying support platforms ... there really is no end
    Agreed, a major reason for me not to get into vinyl. I wouldn't want to do things half way either. But your efforts audibly have paid off.

    3) Cost: very expensive to get the most out of vinyl, and totally disproportionate to tape which arguably can sound even better and is in many cases the true source of truth
    Agreed. Vinyl done right is expensive.

    The positives: truly hi-resolution sound, showcases superiority of hi-res digital recordings transcribed to LP over any redbook versions on CD. In this respect, I differ widely and wildly in opinion than my friend Al M.
    Yes, we do differ in opinion on this matter, Ack! Also after I have heard your excellent vinyl many times. Yet I look forward to hear it again, since you have improved your system even further in the meantime.

    I just found another substantial improvement in my own system too. It cost me zero dollars and was done in a few minutes. It's so trivial that I cannot believe why I hadn't revisited the issue earlier.

    It's slight speaker toe out by just a few degrees. I had from previous quick experiments thought that with these speakers toe out/in largely did not change tonal balance, because unlike with my previous monitors the upper treble does not change much, unless toe out is extreme. But the rest of the frequency spectrum changes to give a substantially more natural timbre with more body. Duh. Could have figured that out earlier.

    I only experimented once more since I wanted to move again to my closer seating position a few inches forward and there was bothered a bit by the treble.
    Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave

  3. #53
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    ...The great thing about a turntable is that a great turntable today will be a great turntable in 10 or 20 years from now. Wouldn’t that be a good investment?
    What makes you think this is a true statement? Are you saying that LP playback from 20 years ago is as good as it is today (because that is the implication)? And I don't know about you, but the idea of dealing with LP playback when I am in my late '80's is not a happy one.

    And if one asks this question about LP playback, why not ask the same question about reel-to-reel tape?
    Rob
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  4. #54
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    What makes you think this is a true statement? Are you saying that LP playback from 20 years ago is as good as it is today (because that is the implication)? And I don't know about you, but the idea of dealing with LP playback when I am in my late '80's is not a happy one.

    And if one asks this question about LP playback, why not ask the same question about reel-to-reel tape?
    Because Linn LP12’s from decades ago are still around and still excellent and fabulous sounding. We hear from people all the time with a table from the 90’s or 80’s and they’re needing a new cartridge. They love their Basis or whatever table and no desire to change.

    As for R2R, I have two Studer 810’s and a Technics 1500 (recently sold). Still awesome sounding after all these years.


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  5. #55
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    What makes you think this is a true statement? Are you saying that LP playback from 20 years ago is as good as it is today (because that is the implication)? And I don't know about you, but the idea of dealing with LP playback when I am in my late '80's is not a happy one.

    And if one asks this question about LP playback, why not ask the same question about reel-to-reel tape?
    Good points. Another thing is turntable playback is, most likely, at its peak. On the other hand, digital is just getting started. In 20 years it will only be much, much better. Maybe even approaching Sci-Fi levels. Can’t wait until I can plug into my stereo.
    Bud

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  6. #56
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    Good points. Another thing is turntable playback is, most likely, at its peak. On the other hand, digital is just getting started. In 20 years it will only be much, much better. Maybe even approaching Sci-Fi levels. Can’t wait until I can plug into my stereo.
    Agreed. To think how far digital has come in the past 5 years alone.

    I still think it’s fun to have both. That was my whole point. Like having a daily driver and a weekend sports car. Why no turntable?
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  7. #57
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Because Linn LP12’s from decades ago are still around and still excellent and fabulous sounding. We hear from people all the time with a table from the 90’s or 80’s and they’re needing a new cartridge. They love their Basis or whatever table and no desire to change.

    As for R2R, I have two Studer 810’s and a Technics 1500 (recently sold). Still awesome sounding after all these years.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The point about R2R is why not ask why everyone doesn’t have one in their system (in addition to asking about LP playback).

    I have tape and ‘table, just no longer hooked up, and see/hear no reason to change that.
    Rob
    __________________________
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  8. #58
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    The point about R2R is why not ask why everyone doesn’t have one in their system (in addition to asking about LP playback).

    I have tape and ‘table, just no longer hooked up, and see/hear no reason to change that.
    Glad it works for you.
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

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  9. #59
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Glad it works for you.
    And apparently for at least a few others here as well. At times in the past I spent more time, thought and effort on the mechanics of music playback, but now I "worry" mostly about the music. At some point in the future, that may change again...
    Rob
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    Tascam BR-20; Technics 1506 with tape path upgrades, FM head, DeHavilland 222 tape head pre; Modwright Oppo 205 full tube mod w/LPS; Euphony Summus server, EtherRegen, HDPLEX LPS; MSB Discrete DAC (dual PS, ISLPro, balanced out); Pass Labs XP-12, XA60.8 (pair); Daedalus Audio Apollo 11’s, VMPS Larger Sub; Daedalus/Wywires, Acoustic Zen, Sablon Audio, Wireworld, Shunyata Research cables; Core Power Equi=Power;
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  10. #60
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    ...I still think it’s fun to have both. That was my whole point. Like having a daily driver and a weekend sports car. Why no turntable?
    This pretty much answers your own question from the thread starter
    Rob
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  11. #61
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Agreed. To think how far digital has come in the past 5 years alone.

    I still think it’s fun to have both. That was my whole point. Like having a daily driver and a weekend sports car. Why no turntable?
    Yep vinyl is the mini-van while digital your sports car.
    Jim

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  12. #62
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    Yep vinyl is the mini-van while digital your sports car.
    Oh, geez! I nearly spit out my soft drink as I read that one! That was funny!
    Regards,
    Steve

    https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/t...geezr-s-system
    I only do what the voices in my wife's head tell her to tell me to do.

  13. #63

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Having both formats is great. and on the digital side, it lets me discovery new music and artists via Tidal.


    in MY personal experience, with Audiophile and Non-Audiophile recordings on vinyl, the music can be magical!


    keep in mind the examples are strictly based on MY opinion. and just sharing my experience with Vinyl and Digital, to many examples to list.


    Example : Regular LP's

    Count Basie "Me and You" playing the Vinyl the dynamics are incredible and not the same on Tidal

    Sarah Vaughan and Her Trio "At Mister Kelly's" a live recording has incredible room presence and her voice is great and don't get the same emotion of the recording on Tidal



    Audiophile Examples:

    Mofi---Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms" amazing on Vinyl (Dynamics) and on Tidal is very good but the Mofi is supreme.

    Music Matters SRX---J.Coltrane "Blue Train" winner is Vinyl all the way.

    Analogue Production---- Muddy Waters "Folk Singer" dynamics and emotion of Muddy is amazing on Vinyl, and good on Tidal

    Analogue Production----HM "Hope" (Stimela--Coal Train) Vinyl smokes Digital!



    having both formats, is a plus in my book, and hearing is believing !

  14. #64
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by PureVinyl View Post
    Having both formats is great. and on the digital side, it lets me discovery new music and artists via Tidal.


    in MY personal experience, with Audiophile and Non-Audiophile recordings on vinyl, the music can be magical!


    keep in mind the examples are strictly based on MY opinion. and just sharing my experience with Vinyl and Digital, to many examples to list.


    Example : Regular LP's

    Count Basie "Me and You" playing the Vinyl the dynamics are incredible and not the same on Tidal

    Sarah Vaughan and Her Trio "At Mister Kelly's" a live recording has incredible room presence and her voice is great and don't get the same emotion of the recording on Tidal



    Audiophile Examples:

    Mofi---Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms" amazing on Vinyl (Dynamics) and on Tidal is very good but the Mofi is supreme.

    Music Matters SRX---J.Coltrane "Blue Train" winner is Vinyl all the way.

    Analogue Production---- Muddy Waters "Folk Singer" dynamics and emotion of Muddy is amazing on Vinyl, and good on Tidal


    having both formats, is a plus in my book, and hearing is believing !
    TOTALLY agree!!! 1000%.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  15. #65
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by PureVinyl View Post
    ...

    Mofi---Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms" amazing on Vinyl (Dynamics) and on Tidal is very good but the Mofi is supreme.
    ...
    Well known to be a 16/44.1 digital recording, using one of those early ADC's that Mike was denigrating earlier in this thread
    Rob
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  16. #66

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Well known to be a 16/44.1 digital recording, using one of those early ADC's that Mike was denigrating earlier in this thread

    the Mofi 45RPM is on a whole different level than anything on digital and CD.... smoking dynamics!

  17. #67
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    Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Well known to be a 16/44.1 digital recording, using one of those early ADC's that Mike was denigrating earlier in this thread
    Yes, an early Sony DASH recoding. Not stellar in any format IMO. But the vinyl does seem to take off some of the edge. Wish they had chosen tape. Would have sounded much better I’m sure.


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  18. #68
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by PureVinyl View Post
    the Mofi 45RPM is on a whole different level than anything on digital and CD.... smoking dynamics!
    Leading to the obvious question - how is this possible? And the answer, of course, is that it isn't, without some hocus-pocus in either the digital mastering or inaccuracies of LP playback, or both.
    Rob
    __________________________
    Tascam BR-20; Technics 1506 with tape path upgrades, FM head, DeHavilland 222 tape head pre; Modwright Oppo 205 full tube mod w/LPS; Euphony Summus server, EtherRegen, HDPLEX LPS; MSB Discrete DAC (dual PS, ISLPro, balanced out); Pass Labs XP-12, XA60.8 (pair); Daedalus Audio Apollo 11’s, VMPS Larger Sub; Daedalus/Wywires, Acoustic Zen, Sablon Audio, Wireworld, Shunyata Research cables; Core Power Equi=Power;
    Adona rack, ​​​​​Stillpoints, IsoPods, ASC, GIK Acoustics accessories

  19. #69

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by PureVinyl View Post
    Having both formats is great. and on the digital side, it lets me discovery new music and artists via Tidal.


    in MY personal experience, with Audiophile and Non-Audiophile recordings on vinyl, the music can be magical!


    keep in mind the examples are strictly based on MY opinion. and just sharing my experience with Vinyl and Digital, to many examples to list.


    Example : Regular LP's

    Count Basie "Me and You" playing the Vinyl the dynamics are incredible and not the same on Tidal

    Sarah Vaughan and Her Trio "At Mister Kelly's" a live recording has incredible room presence and her voice is great and don't get the same emotion of the recording on Tidal



    Audiophile Examples:

    Mofi---Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms" amazing on Vinyl (Dynamics) and on Tidal is very good but the Mofi is supreme.

    Music Matters SRX---J.Coltrane "Blue Train" winner is Vinyl all the way.

    Analogue Production---- Muddy Waters "Folk Singer" dynamics and emotion of Muddy is amazing on Vinyl, and good on Tidal


    having both formats, is a plus in my book, and hearing is believing !
    Listen to the 45 RPM version of MoFi BIA cut The Man's Too Strong and compare it to Tidal. The bass is incredibly powerful. The Tidal version is MIA.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  20. #70

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Leading to the obvious question - how is this possible? And the answer, of course, is that it isn't, without some hocus-pocus in either the digital mastering or inaccuracies of LP playback, or both.
    Where is the bottom end on the digital version vs. the MoFi 45 RPM?
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  21. #71
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Well known to be a 16/44.1 digital recording, using one of those early ADC's that Mike was denigrating earlier in this thread
    it was an early digital recording, but mastered to tape. so the definitive way to hear it is vinyl. the digital from the vinyl master will sound how that typically does.

    agree on the MoFi 45, it's pretty good.

  22. #72
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Leading to the obvious question - how is this possible? And the answer, of course, is that it isn't, without some hocus-pocus in either the digital mastering or inaccuracies of LP playback, or both.
    It’s very possible. The turntable has its own set of variables. As one example, one can lower the VTA ever so slightly to take the edge of bright recordings. There is also the remastering stage (for vinyl). There also isn’t the hocus-pocus of added noise from a network which often reveals itself in the upper register. Conversely, the digital can also sound better in many systems with the right DAC, network, remastering, etc.

    At the end of the day, it’s not a great recording, but it is a great album however you choose to enjoy it.


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  23. #73
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    it was an early digital recording, but mastered to tape. so the definitive way to hear it is vinyl. the digital from the vinyl master will sound how that typically does.

    agree on the MoFi 45, it's pretty good.
    Damn, now I have to go back and listen to my MoFI pressing.


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  24. #74

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Damn, now I have to go back and listen to my MoFI pressing.


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    The MoFi 45 is the best version I have ever heard of this LP.
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  25. #75

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Damn, now I have to go back and listen to my MoFI pressing.


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    Mike with your stables of TT's it should be Smoking!

  26. #76
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by PureVinyl View Post
    Mike with your stables of TT's it should be Smoking!
    Oh yes. I’ve got the MOFI SACD version too. Great album.


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  27. #77
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    it was an early digital recording, but mastered to tape. so the definitive way to hear it is vinyl. the digital from the vinyl master will sound how that typically does.
    I don't even know what this means? You're basically saying that all CD's will sound "better" (whatever that means) if one records them to tape and then listens to that. All very well and good, but "high fidelity" isn't part of that equation.

    I wouldn't care about the audiophile love of LP's except for this phenomenon, that the record companies simply will not release a product that sounds as good as it can. No matter how good the 45 rpm LP sounds, a CD made from the original recording, properly mastered, would sound better; there's really no way that isn't true. BUT, apparently that isn't going to happen
    Rob
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  28. #78
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    I don't even know what this means? You're basically saying that all CD's will sound "better" (whatever that means) if one records them to tape and then listens to that. All very well and good, but "high fidelity" isn't part of that equation.
    sigh.

    I love 16/44 and listen to it often with great satisfaction. and music recorded and mastered to 16/44 is typically outstanding. I'm a 'native' guy and format agnostic in as much as I want to hear it as god intended......in the native recorded format. which is why I'm heavily invested in digital, vinyl and tape. I love all of the formats.

    I was wrong above (that it was mastered to analog tape, it was mastered to DAT tape.....I got the tape part right) when I was going from my memory. here is what it says on the Wiki link....

    Brothers in Arms was one of the first albums directed at the CD market, and was a full digital recording (DDD) at a time when most popular music was recorded on analog equipment. It was also released on vinyl (abridged to fit on one LP) and cassette. Producer Neil Dorfsman says the digital multitrack was mixed on an analog board with the resulting two track mix re-digitized via a Prism A/D converter and recorded on a DAT machine.

    I have the dsd rip from the 96/24 sourced SACD of Brothers in Arms (and a quality way to play it back) and it is very nice.

    I do have a number of digitally sourced Lp's where I do prefer the digital to the Lp. but it's a mixed situation 'depending'. in this case the 45rpm Lp is better. maybe the 'analog board' inserted between the direct recording and the DAT?

    I wouldn't care about the audiophile love of LP's except for this phenomenon, that the record companies simply will not release a product that sounds as good as it can. No matter how good the 45 rpm LP sounds, a CD made from the original recording, properly mastered, would sound better; there's really no way that isn't true. BUT, apparently that isn't going to happen

  29. #79
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    I know DAT did not exist in 1985, when BIA was released. I also doubt that the Prism ADC existed then, so I’m not sure what that anecdote is about?
    Rob
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  30. #80

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I’m curious, why don’t more audiophiles at least consider a basic vinyl rig? I’ve heard the regular reasons: too much care and feeding, I sold all my records, I’m not buying anymore vinyl, it’s too much hassle. But I personally don’t find that to be the case.

    Wouldn’t having a turntable in addition to a great digital setup be nice?

    The great thing about a turntable is that a great turntable today will be a great turntable in 10 or 20 years from now. Wouldn’t that be a good investment?



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    I had a reasonably nice turn table and cart - something from rega and a grado cart on it. Neither were top of the line nor entry level. I paired it with a simple Schiit phono amp and bought some records. It sounded great and wasn't as fussy as I thought it would be - though the driver excursion did scare the hell out of me at times.

    The sound was good but certainly not as detailed as the digital I like. There was a wonderful body to vocals that I really enjoyed but I did find it a bit too rich and dark for my liking. I'll chalk that up to the rega - I've never been a fan of the traditional british hifi sound. My favorite audio products from the UK are chord and dcs if that gives an idea of my preference (hell, liking soulution and magico probably gives an even better idea).

    I ended up selling it all after about a year for pretty much no cost to own. Most of the music I listen to just isn't released on vinyl. Despite this knowledge, I may continue to be a silly audiophile by...picking up a more expensive turntable and giving it another shot lol but it's at the bottom of my list. The generally higher dynamic range of most recordings on vinyl vs digital is certainly enticing so I keep a look out to see if more artists are releasing on vinly. To that end, they are, but still not at that critical mass where I feel compelled to set up another TT rig.

  31. #81

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    I know DAT did not exist in 1985, when BIA was released. I also doubt that the Prism ADC existed then, so I’m not sure what that anecdote is about?
    DAT recorders came out in 1987. Prism wasn't even founded until 1987.
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  32. #82
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    A problem when discussing BIA is how many different ways it has been released. Neil Dorfsman was obviously confused in the quote Mike L. referenced above; referring to the links below suggest he was confusing the original mix/mastering with the much later 5.1 production. Adding "fuel to the fire", Chuck Ainsley describes
    " In addition, we also mixed it to half-inch analogue tape at 30 IPS, as well as to 15 IPS, one-inch tape in two-track. And everyone in the room had the same opinion that the 96kHz 24-bit PCM was the closest representation of the console bus, and coming second was the 15 IPS one-inch analogue tape. Thereafter, it was a toss-up of which came in third and fourth — i.e. was it the Sonoma DSD, or the half inch 30 IPS tape? So going forward now, we have basically determined that we prefer 96kHz 24-bit PCM for recording over the Sonoma DSD. I was really surprised at that."

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    https://web.archive.org/web/20080610...in_arms_01.asp

    https://web.archive.org/web/20080820...in_arms_02.asp
    Rob
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  33. #83
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    My mistake was selling or giving away all my albums when I bought my 1st CDP and disks. I get the appeal and the sound differences but never pursued it again.

    I barely have the room to store my CDs and really have no place to start storing LPs if I was to start buying them. And, what would I buy? Another copy of all the same music I already have? I am not one to need multiple copies of the same music in different formats.

    I do still enjoy listening to a good vinyl setup when I get the chances.
    -----------------
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  34. #84
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    I guess for me, it was the time period in which I got interested in audio. It was about 1987 and the CD was where I made my initial investment in equipment. I think it also has to do with perhaps I am just more used to the sound of digital along with the convenience.
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  35. #85

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I’m curious, why don’t more audiophiles at least consider a basic vinyl rig? I’ve heard the regular reasons: too much care and feeding, I sold all my records, I’m not buying anymore vinyl, it’s too much hassle. But I personally don’t find that to be the case.

    Wouldn’t having a turntable in addition to a great digital setup be nice?

    ....
    I still own a turntable and have no intention of giving it up but I would not bother owning one if I have to start anew.

    In my experience, a “basic vinyl rig” cannot compete with a similarly priced digital set up. One would have to spend a lot more in an analog rig to achieve what is now possible with digital.

    The convenience of digital and the improvements made in the last 5 years make it difficult for me investing in vinyl.

    That said, I did hear a system playing R2R and it was amazing. Beautiful analog sound with no ticks or pops. That would be interesting. But... oh the inconvenience...

  36. #86
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    I still own a turntable and have no intention of giving it up but I would not bother owning one if I have to start anew.

    In my experience, a “basic vinyl rig” cannot compete with a similarly priced digital set up. One would have to spend a lot more in an analog rig to achieve what is now possible with digital.

    The convenience of digital and the improvements made in the last 5 years make it difficult for me investing in vinyl.

    That said, I did hear a system playing R2R and it was amazing. Beautiful analog sound with no ticks or pops. That would be interesting. But... oh the inconvenience...
    That’s where I keep going back and forth.

    I’m over the top with what I’ve accomplished in my digital assembly, and will add vinyl only at a modest expense.

    Then comes limited play, since I will be starting with a handful of albums, over thousands of choices between streaming, downloaded and disc.


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  37. #87
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I’m curious, why don’t more audiophiles at least consider a basic vinyl rig? I’ve heard the regular reasons: too much care and feeding, I sold all my records, I’m not buying anymore vinyl, it’s too much hassle. But I personally don’t find that to be the case.

    Wouldn’t having a turntable in addition to a great digital setup be nice?

    The great thing about a turntable is that a great turntable today will be a great turntable in 10 or 20 years from now. Wouldn’t that be a good investment?



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I have 2 vintage ones right now. An old (stock) Lenco L78 that has only been internally converted to 115v, as that sounds better than the 230v here in Europe. I use a step down transformer on it. The other is a vintage HK linear tracker.

    With circa 100 albums now, I am good there...don't really need more than that.
    NORMAN
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  38. #88
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    That’s where I keep going back and forth.

    I’m over the top with what I’ve accomplished in my digital assembly, and will add vinyl only at a modest expense.

    Then comes limited play, since I will be starting with a handful of albums, over thousands of choices between streaming, downloaded and disc.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    It will be interesting to see how it unfolds for you.


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  39. #89
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    It would all depend on the pressing I guess. A noisy pressing and it will ruin the presence. But ultimately, unless you listen to vinyl in the same system, you won’t know.


    But the vinyl of this makes the SACD sound digital:




    My two cents: if it was recorded in analog, listen in analog. If it was recorded in digital, listen in digital.

    My point in why having both formats is nice.
    What if you have that album specially ripped to RBCD from the vinyl with a very careful process? Delicious!
    NORMAN
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  40. #90
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    I remember (not fondly!) the days when I had a turntable (LP12 Valhalla) on a dedicated stand, 2 reel decks, 2 DAT decks, a cassette deck, CD player, Beta HiFi and VHS HiFi with a Sony PCM-601ES, all on a wide lowboy rack, with all the assorted "software" (LP's, CD's, all kinds of tapes).
    Rob
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  41. #91
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by wisnon View Post
    What if you have that album specially ripped to RBCD from the vinyl with a very careful process? Delicious!
    I've done that with a few albums (Led Zep II - Classic Records), sounded good, but I still preferred the record itself.
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  42. #92
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Mine was ripped by a very AR person...though could not test directly in the same system. That TT is $$$$$, so outta my league. Even the P-Stage is something else.

    However, its a great recording even in car stereo.
    NORMAN
    Custom PC with Memory Player Software Suite/ Modded Denon CD transport>Lampi GG1 (and sometimes PACIFIC) DHT tube Dac> Rowen 850W Isolating Transformer/ Rowen SS Preamp and PA1 monoblocs/Lampi Silk power cond. with Phase flipper> Heil AMT KITHARA & Syrinx in parallel hookup. Swiss cables (Reference line) for PC/interconnects and speaker cables. Goldmund Sweetcord PC. FTA Callisto unpowered USB cable. Basic analog: vintage Lenco L78 TT with Rowen mat, Denon MM cart, iFi iPhono2 with 15v Hynes SR3 LPSU. Synology 12 TB NAS. 2nd system:KenWin Bluetooth speaker 3rd system TBI Millemnium amp with Aulos speakers and SB Duo hookup.

  43. #93
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by wisnon View Post
    Mine was ripped by a very AR person...though could not test directly in the same system. That TT is $$$$$, so outta my league. Even the P-Stage is something else.

    However, its a great recording even in car stereo.
    That’s because of the source. Why no turntable?


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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
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  44. #94
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    15

    Re: Why no turntable?

    This is a touchy subject.

    The way I see it: if, at the time of recording, the mix was recorded to an analog medium, then I want to hear it in analog. The same goes for digital (for the most part)...

    So, if the recording engineer mixes everything down to DSD... I want to hear that album in it's original format.

    If it was recorded to tape, I want to hear it on tape, or the next best thing, a vinyl record that was cut by a competent mastering engineer to a lacquer, using an all-analog signal chain and pressed at a good pressing plant like QRP, RTI, etc...

    There are companies out there right now that are putting out the best sounding reissues on the market. Analogue Productions, Music Matters, even Blue Note directly with their new Tone Poet series are releasing these recordings on vinyl and they can beat out ANY digital reissue of the same release.

    I know the big labels are trying to preserve all of those old master tapes that degrade every time they hit a tape head. But some, NOT ALL, of these labels are using cheap A/D converters to record down to 24/96, 24/192, 32/384 etc, instead of cutting new lacquers from the tape. As we all know, lacquers degrade over time... it's a conundrum.

    90% of these new vinyl reissues that are being mass-produced by crappy pressing plants, hitting the shelves of Barnes & Noble, Best Buy, Walmart, Guitar Center and your local record stores, with lacquers cut from a digital recording of an analog source... just don't cut it for me. A simple, blind, A/B test on a good system will reveal that. Obviously, the mastering, pressing plant, all play a big part in that final product.

    With all of that said, you can find some incredible DSD recordings of analog masters that, depending on the hardware the studio uses and the hardware in your system, can get you as close to that master tape as possible.

    I like, and use, both digital and analog sources in my system. But if I had to choose one.........
    Mike Malley
    Consultant at Suncoast Audio
    Cell: (941) 932-0772
    Email: mikemalley@suncoastaudio.com

  45. #95
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Bluffton SC
    Posts
    740

    Re: Why no turntable?

    I own a simple entry level Marantz TT. It’s been in its box for two years. Lack of LPs or having to buy new LPs is one reason I don’t further invest in a better rig. The cost and fussiness of purchasing an analog system to equal the overall sonic rewards of my digital system is another and much bigger reason.
    Main Equipment: Kharma Elegance dB11-S, JL Audio F113v2 X 2, Esoteric Grandioso C1X Solo PreAmp, Bricasti M21 DAC, M32 Mono Amplifiers, Antipodes Kala K-50 Server with 4TB internal SSD
    Power: Shunyata Everest 8000, Sigma XC v2, Sigma NR v2, Alpha NR v2 PCs, Defender, ADDPowr Wizard
    Grounding: Shunyata Altaira CGS - Alpha CGS cables
    Network : Supra Cat 8+, Twin (Nenon) Modified Buffalo GS2016 Switches with fiber in between powered with Keces P3 LPSU,
    Cables: Wireworld Platinum Starlight 2.0 8 USB, Wireworld Platinum Eclipse 8 Speaker cables, 1M & 6M Tubulus Concentus ICs,
    Other: Isoacoustics GAIA I footers on the Kharmas, GIK & Stillpoint Apertures, Stillpoint Ultra SS under
    Everest and Amplifiers, Three dedicated 20 Amp lines w/Furutech GTX - Gold outlets, Adona 5 Shelf rack, ROON, a few HRS weighs

  46. #96
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    744

    Re: Why no turntable?

    For my multi-channel recordings, I prefer digital...
    Vivid Audio - Burmester - Hegel - Marantz - Oppo - Pioneer 60" - Wireworld

  47. #97
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Leyden
    Posts
    596

    Re: Why no turntable?

    I sometimes regret going into analogue. I love my turntable, but the costs are just too much. Carts, tonearm, TT, cables etc etc.
    Pre amp: Ocatve Phono Module Power amps: Octave MRE130 Turntable: SAC Girati Grande. Tonearm: Dynavector 507mkII Cartridge: Dynavector Ikeda 9TT Streamer: Aurender A10 Power Distributor: Anzus Mains D8 Speakers: Raidho X-3 Speaker Cables: AudioQuest Rocket 88 XLR Interlink: Ansuz A2, [B]XLR Interlink: [B]Phono interlink: Cammino Serie 1.0 - PH 1.0s Power cables: Anzus Mains Ceramic, two Pom, Aluminium, X series Audio Rack: Rack of Silence 4 and 2.

  48. #98
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    15

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    I sometimes regret going into analogue. I love my turntable, but the costs are just too much. Carts, tonearm, TT, cables etc etc.
    It's very rewarding once you find that perfect combo, though!
    Mike Malley
    Consultant at Suncoast Audio
    Cell: (941) 932-0772
    Email: mikemalley@suncoastaudio.com

  49. #99
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    SE Michigan
    Posts
    3,765

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    It's very rewarding once you find that perfect combo, though!
    There is absolutely nothing I find rewarding having to fiddle with vinyl. Why I keep it in my set-up is one of life's great mysteries.
    Jim

    D'Agostino Momentum M-400's MxV’s & HD Pre-amp
    Wilson Alexandria X2 Series 2 speakers
    Digital: dCS Vivaldi APEX DAC, Clock & Upsampler
    Analog: SME 20/3 with Esoteric E-03 Phono
    Transparent Opus Speaker Cable & Interconnects & Opus Power Cords
    Power Cords on Digital: Shunyata
    Power Conditioner - Shunyata Everest

  50. #100

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    I sometimes regret going into analogue. I love my turntable, but the costs are just too much. Carts, tonearm, TT, cables etc etc.
    One of the reasons I say, "thanks, but no thanks".

    Again, I have found better ways to spend the money elsewhere in my system. I love to hear a good turntable though -- in friends' systems.
    Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave

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