Thread: Vinyl Reissues - From Analog Planet

I found this to be an informative and timely article as I get into vinyl. Maybe experienced vinylphiles already know this.

Reissue Labels To Avoid and Some Best to Proceed With Caution | Analog Planet

Anyone with any experience with the label Music On Vinyl? They seem to be re-issuing some artists I'm interested in, but unsure if they are any good. Their own website and Fremer suggest they could source from CD if analog or high rez sources are unavailable.

Originally Posted by socfan12

I found this to be an informative and timely article as I get into vinyl. Maybe experienced vinylphiles already know this.

Reissue Labels To Avoid and Some Best to Proceed With Caution | Analog Planet

Anyone with any experience with the label Music On Vinyl? They seem to be re-issuing some artists I'm interested in, but unsure if they are any good. Their own website and Fremer suggest they could source from CD if analog or high rez sources are unavailable.

If you read the followup comments you'll see that most, if not all of the MOV releases are digitally sourced. Michael's comments were spot on and ID'd the labels that master their releases directly from the master tapes and generally do a great job. In fact, if you don't want to spend $50 on the 45 rpm Music Matters Blue Note reissues, grab their later 33 1/3 rpm releases.everyone so far has been excellent.

I think the real issue is that a lot of companies have jumped on the analog bandwagon and simply issue dreck. As Michael mentioned and MEP and I were just the other day talking about, analog sourced means nothing. In fact, it probably means the LP was cut from a digital file. While many of the comments focus on the sound, the Q/C of many of these new labels is wanting.

Face it. The major record labels won't send their precious and extremely fragile master tapes to any Johnny come lately mastering engineer. Essentially the master tapes -- if they leave the premises -- only go to one of four groups nowadays in the US for mastering. Kevin Gray, Bernie Grundman, Steven Marsh/Steve Hoffman and Ryan Smith.

The rest of the LP labels have to satisfy themselves with a safety or digital copy often of dubious origin.

I was also disappointed with RRs decision to master their LPs from 176/24 digital copies. The reason given is that KOJ only wanted to run the tapes once and as many know, it might require two or three passes to get a good lacquer. Still, I don't see the damage with three passes.

In the case of say the Beatles or Pink Floyd, the masters have been rarely taken out of the vaults. Pretty much all of the releases are from safeties. I'm not sure how many Beatles safeties were made from the original recordings (and how many are still around) but I've seen pictures for one title that I don't remember the name of that went at least 8 or more.

Same goes with Japanese remasters. There's no way unless the original was screwed up that they can sound better than the originals. They're at best cut from a safety tape and generation number is everything in analog.

Thanks for the additional color, Myles. Knew you would have something to say about the topic. Did not know that RR masters from digital. Would have thought an audiophile label like RR would always use the analog tapes...

Mark, BC-13, are they cut from analog tapes or digital? I've only read on one site that BC-13 was cut from tapes. Can anyone confirm this?

Originally Posted by socfan12

Thanks for the additional color, Myles. Knew you would have something to say about the topic. Did not know that RR masters from digital. Would have thought an audiophile label like RR would always use the analog tapes...

Mark, BC-13, are they cut from analog tapes or digital? I've only read on one site that BC-13 was cut from tapes. Can anyone confirm this?

Remember that RR only recorded in parallel up to '92. So analog tapes only exist for recordings made before '92. As I understand, RR intends to release LPs from before and after '92.

The sad thing is that we are holding on to the past. 99.9% of the new recordings are recorded digitally.

Originally Posted by Mike

The sad thing is that we are holding on to the past. 99.9% of the new recordings are recorded digitally.

Unfortunately that's the McDonald's syndrome.

Originally Posted by Mike

The sad thing is that we are holding on to the past. 99.9% of the new recordings are recorded digitally.

For me the sad thing is they are wasting manufacturing capacity reissuing all these old recordings so that the option to get new releases on LP are miniscule.

Originally Posted by Mike

The sad thing is that we are holding on to the past. 99.9% of the new recordings are recorded digitally.

MA Recordings, whose music and recordings I like a lot, are for the most part recorded digitally.:-(. Their Goldberg Variations was recorded in parallel, so the analog tapes were used for that LP only (which I purchased at NYAS). Talking to Todd of MA didn't give me a warm & fuzzy that he'll be doing many more like that, or even issuing a lot more vinyl...:-(

Originally Posted by mep

I thought all of Music on Vinyl was sourced from digital files. I also found it ironic that Joe Walsh's LP "Analog Man" is a digital recording. The label even has the schematic symbol for a triode tube on it which looks cool. My two favorite cuts are "Analog Man" and "Lucky That Way." There is a fair amount of compression which limits dynamic range, but I still dig some of the tunes. Too bad he didn't record the album on analog.

Their site does say they will use analog tapes when available, but to Myles' point, who will give them good masters?

I'm interested in their Lamb eponymous re-issue, so I emailed them asking the source. We shall see.

Originally Posted by socfan12

MA Recordings, whose music and recordings I like a lot, are for the most part recorded digitally.:-(. Their Goldberg Variations was recorded in parallel, so the analog tapes were used for that LP only (which I purchased at NYAS). Talking to Todd of MA didn't give me a warm & fuzzy that he'll be doing many more like that, or even issuing a lot more vinyl...:-(

MA Recordings is all digital though they've been at the forefront of recording in hi-Rez digital.

Originally Posted by still-one

For me the sad thing is they are wasting manufacturing capacity reissuing all these old recordings so that the option to get new releases on LP are miniscule.

Where are you getting this info or is it supposition? That's hardly the case. There's plenty of pressing plants out there. I see plenty of new vinyl on Elusive Disc, AS or MD.

C'mon the reason is pure and simple financial. Companies don't see LPs as being financially viable. CDs are dead and they are concentrating their efforts on where they will make the most money eg. iTunes and digital downloads. Plus they don't have to deal with record returns or finding distributors or retailers.

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

MA Recordings is all digital though they've been at the forefront of recording in hi-Rez digital.

Not this one: Goldberg Variations, MA Recordings

Todd had this in his room and said was cut from analog tapes. Description says the same.

OK I stand corrected but bet it was an early attempt.

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

Remember that RR only recorded in parallel up to '92. So analog tapes only exist for recordings made before '92. As I understand, RR intends to release LPs from before and after '92.

Myles, I think that most of the recent vinyl reissues (all done by Paul Stubblebine) have been of KOJ digitally mastered albums. Definitely, the Exotic Dances was originally analog, and Paul did the Tape Project release from that one. However, Keith later released a 176/24 copy of that tape for his digital master series.

Interestingly one of those digital titles, was the Rachmaninoff Symphonic Dances which was recently released on vinyl. Back in 2010 Paul made a lacquer of it for the shootout of ADACs that he ran at my home when I was choosing the best ADAC for my ripping project. I ended up with a PM Model Two, haven't regretted that. Knowing Paul's and Keith's equipment, the Model Two was most certainly used for the digital copies.

Larry

Originally Posted by still-one

For me the sad thing is they are wasting manufacturing capacity reissuing all these old recordings so that the option to get new releases on LP are miniscule.

I continue to see more and more new releases being put out on vinyl these days. It's not just about letting the boomers re-live their childhood.



Thought some might like this:

Manufacturers are struggling to keep up with the resurgence in vinyl records - Features - Music - The Independent

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

Where are you getting this info or is it supposition? That's hardly the case. There's plenty of pressing plants out there. I see plenty of new vinyl on Elusive Disc, AS or MD.

C'mon the reason is pure and simple financial. Companies don't see LPs as being financially viable. CDs are dead and they are concentrating their efforts on where they will make the most money eg. iTunes and digital downloads. Plus they don't have to deal with record returns or finding distributors or retailers.

No supposition here Myles. I will try and find the article that I recently read that went deep into the topic but 'till then here are a few quotes.

6-13-14 "Wondering Sound" - Disc Maker Reopens Vinyl Plant
The ongoing struggle between the rising demand for vinyl and the lack of plants that actually produce it has gotten slightly less daunting thanks to the reemergence of Disc Makers. While the company has long supported the independent music scene by offering small runs of CDs, they got out of the vinyl game 15 years ago and recently decided to refurbish their old factory to handle as little as 200 records at a time.

June 9, 2014 "Pitchfork" Why Aren't There More Vinyl Pressing Plants?
“The album release date for In Conflict has been pushed back to May 27. This is due to a backup at the pressing plant; Record Store Day was a tall order this year. We will be selling CD and vinyl copies of the album at all May tour dates, prior to the ‘street date.’”
As of late, it's been all too common: An artist celebrates a record release show, booked months in advance, but doesn’t actually have the record available at the merch table because of some mysterious hold-up. Or—in Pallett’s case and many others—they release a "pushed back" statement instead, one that has nothing to do with last minute tinkering in the studio. It has to do with a shortage of vinyl pressing plants.

"A Journel of Musical Things"
RIP-V, which began in 2009 after buying up a mothballed plant, has six presses but only four are operating. Try getting parts for the old machines–and even when everything is running, there’s no Canadian company making the lacquer masters, which are the things from which all copies are made. There’s no Canadian supplier of metal stampers, either. This adds to the costs–and the price. Business (and jobs) go south to the US, where apparently 99% of the world’s vinyl production is carried out.

Industry pioneer re-enters the market after 15 years, offering vinyl records to independent artists
Pennsauken, NJ, June 12, 2014 — The market for vinyl records is growing by leaps and bounds—35% per year for the last five years, despite a continued decline in total recorded music sales revenue. Due to vinyl’s niche status and strong growth, production capacity has lagged behind, leading musicians and labels to turn to pressing plants as far away as Eastern Europe to get their records pressed. And even with months-long waiting times, artists sometimes receive vinyl test pressings, only to discover they are not up to snuff.

This one is too long to quote.
The Quietus | Opinion | The Quietus Essay | Is Record Store Day In Crisis? A Quietus Investigation

Originally Posted by still-one

No supposition here Myles. I will try and find the article that I recently read that went deep into the topic but 'till then here are a few quotes.

6-13-14 "Wondering Sound" - Disc Maker Reopens Vinyl Plant
The ongoing struggle between the rising demand for vinyl and the lack of plants that actually produce it has gotten slightly less daunting thanks to the reemergence of Disc Makers. While the company has long supported the independent music scene by offering small runs of CDs, they got out of the vinyl game 15 years ago and recently decided to refurbish their old factory to handle as little as 200 records at a time.

June 9, 2014 "Pitchfork" Why Aren't There More Vinyl Pressing Plants?
“The album release date for In Conflict has been pushed back to May 27. This is due to a backup at the pressing plant; Record Store Day was a tall order this year. We will be selling CD and vinyl copies of the album at all May tour dates, prior to the ‘street date.’”
As of late, it's been all too common: An artist celebrates a record release show, booked months in advance, but doesn’t actually have the record available at the merch table because of some mysterious hold-up. Or—in Pallett’s case and many others—they release a "pushed back" statement instead, one that has nothing to do with last minute tinkering in the studio. It has to do with a shortage of vinyl pressing plants.

"A Journel of Musical Things"
RIP-V, which began in 2009 after buying up a mothballed plant, has six presses but only four are operating. Try getting parts for the old machines–and even when everything is running, there’s no Canadian company making the lacquer masters, which are the things from which all copies are made. There’s no Canadian supplier of metal stampers, either. This adds to the costs–and the price. Business (and jobs) go south to the US, where apparently 99% of the world’s vinyl production is carried out.

Industry pioneer re-enters the market after 15 years, offering vinyl records to independent artists
Pennsauken, NJ, June 12, 2014 — The market for vinyl records is growing by leaps and bounds—35% per year for the last five years, despite a continued decline in total recorded music sales revenue. Due to vinyl’s niche status and strong growth, production capacity has lagged behind, leading musicians and labels to turn to pressing plants as far away as Eastern Europe to get their records pressed. And even with months-long waiting times, artists sometimes receive vinyl test pressings, only to discover they are not up to snuff.

This one is too long to quote.
The Quietus | Opinion | The Quietus Essay | Is Record Store Day In Crisis? A Quietus Investigation

Let me put it another way. How many of these companies would have their LPs pressed by QRP, Pallas or RTI? None. As a matter of fact, one doubts the author of the article even heard of the above pressing facilities. And this article doesn't show what you claimed about the impact of reissues upon the release of new LPs. None of the reissues are pressed at these plants.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1412620971.502255.jpgImageUploadedByTapatalk1412620989.782046.jpg

Lots of great re-issues out there. I am willing to pay to play.

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

Let me put it another way. How many of these companies would have their LPs pressed by QRP, Pallas or RTI? None. As a matter of fact, one doubts the author of the article even heard of the above pressing facilities. And this article doesn't show what you claimed about the impact of reissues upon the release of new LPs. None of the reissues are pressed at these plants.

I haven't found the original article as of yet but what do those pressing plants have to do with with the dearth of newer music available in a timely fashion. Just go to Amazon or MusicDirect and see how many relatively current releases are out of stock or waiting for repress. Yea we really need pressing capacity for another round of Beatles, Kind of Blue......

Just another recent article about waiting times.
Manufacturers are struggling to keep up with the resurgence in vinyl records - Features - Music - The Independent

Because you said that repressings are killing the release of new vinyl. Today's repressings from AP, Impex, MMJ, ORG, MOFI, etc. are done at Pallas, QRP and RTI, not the schlock houses that do the releases you see mentioned in the article. See some of Fremer's visits to these places. Quality is the last thing on their mind. So how is that killing the new vinyl issues market?

You may not want another KOB but the record labels wouldn't do it if they didn't think it would sell.

Originally Posted by mep

The fact that we are approaching the end of 2014 and we are talking about a shortage of vinyl pressing capacity is almost unbelievable. I hope the demand continues to increase and that more companies come on line to press vinyl. Maybe there should be a kickstarter campaign to fund a new design for vinyl presses since none are being made anymore.

So do I, Mark. But I think therein lies the dichotomy of vinyl nowadays. We audiophiles see it as the medium of choice for sonic fidelity, but I bet as much of the shortage is caused by record companies trying to ride the resurgence of vinyl to make a quick buck. As I look at my kids favorite artists (Imagine Dragons, Panic at the Disco, Katy Perry, Maroon 5, etc), they all have vinyl LPs released with their CDs. It's no longer limited to special editions or reissues produced with high fidelity in mind.

Vinyl Record Pressing Plants

Not to mention look at the quantity of records that these companies are doing per run. Pretty sure that there's no way QRP, Pallas or RTI can meet this size order...

http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/363-vinyl-shortage/

Originally Posted by socfan12

So do I, Mark. But I think therein lies the dichotomy of vinyl nowadays. We audiophiles see it as the medium of choice for sonic fidelity, but I bet as much of the shortage is caused by record companies trying to ride the resurgence of vinyl to make a quick buck. As I look at my kids favorite artists (Imagine Dragons, Panic at the Disco, Katy Perry, Maroon 5, etc), they all have vinyl LPs released with their CDs. It's no longer limited to special editions or reissues produced with high fidelity in mind.

Not this audiophile.

Originally Posted by mep

What LPs from what bands are you waiting for to be released but are being held up because the best pressing plants in the world are busy reissuing the best quality vinyl they can produce for the reissue market?

Who knows if they are held up or just not getting pressed. There is finite capacity. That capacity is being used to feed a bunch of old audiophiles the SOS that we listened to years ago. Use that capacity to press product that might capture the attention of a younger audience.

Originally Posted by still-one

Who knows if they are held up or just not getting pressed. There is finite capacity. That capacity is being used to feed a bunch of old audiophiles the SOS that we listened to years ago. Use that capacity to press product that might capture the attention of a younger audience.

Why? Just listen on CD or download the music.

I really don't understand what isn't clear about the different between pressing plants.

Originally Posted by mep

I understand that, but as Myles pointed out, those artists aren't having their LPs pressed at the premium record plants. They are two different worlds and therefore the argument that premium reissues are somehow holding back current pressings from new artists doesn't hold a lot of water.

True. I'm not a buyer if that cause/effect argument, just saying more vinyl is not necessarily good. In fact, makes it harder to pick the wheat from the chaff.

Hmmm, old vs new records

New records/recordings:
- digital recordings and masterings
- schlock pressing plants
- all are180g, but is that really necessary if the rest of it isn;t up to standard
Result: Not much, if any difference between the CD playback and vinyl playback. Maybe better artwork. Higher cost to the buyer.

Old Recordings - reissued:
- perhaps using analogue tapes, but this is not guaranteed
- perhaps using better pressing plants
- usually remastered, but that is not always better than the original
Result: At least you have a clean copy of an old master-work. Usually better sound than the CD but not guaranteed.

Old Recordings - originals:
- usually not in perfect shape
- need to trust the seller to grade these properly, take our chances
- pricy, hard to find
- covers usually marred/less than perfect shape
Result: You have an original. May be scratched. Could be resold for what you paid for it (probably).

Interesting reading:

http://www.vh1.com/music/tuner/2014-...vinyl-box-set/

Originally Posted by mep

That was a great article Myles! Not only does it get you excited about the Beatles new mono set, it tells you everything that is wrong with current recording practices and why new music sucks.

New music doesn't suck any more than some of the drivel the Beetles fed us. most of it sucked when I was a kid and it still is inane now.

SOME of the new music today is rubbish. It's a drum machine (do they still call it that? Maybe I'm dating myself) and some guy or gal with horrible offensive lyrics that rhyme (case in point: Nicki Minaj - Anaconda - YouTube). Then again, I stumble upon someone like Liz Longley and I'm interested (case in point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qgS3Y7-AOc AND http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y78dy-h5k58). If you don't get a little tear from listening to that last song.....

But the problem there remains the quality of recording. Seriously, it sounds so bad. Must be all that DSP they use in the recording studios these days.

Then again, I look at most of the music from the 80's and it sucks. The 90's weren't much better.

I guess the moral of the story here is that we all like different music for different reasons and music, in and of itself, doesn't have era's, it is one continuous line of good and bad.

Anyone have an opinion on the KISS 40th anniversary reissues? I was disappointed to learn that they too were re-mastered in the digital domain (DSD), probably for the better. Whilst I have several of these, only discovering the fact from the later 34 album crate set advertising promo, I have no original releases to compare. They are very good compared to say the woeful Gatsby movie soundrack on vinyl but they are not quite vinyl in the truest sense. Yet many KISS fans are saying overall positive things about the re-mastering.

Surely next release will be the DSD downloads & you may be better served waiting for those to become available.

Lots of great music - minimally compressed, even in vinyl. Both old and reissued - very little new on vinyl. It's called classical. Try it. You can start with the dollar bins and pick out old Londons (essentially all British pressed) in the US (good place to start for generally fine sonics at a cheap price.) Harder to find pre dynagroove (1963 and earlier) RCA's and Mercuries. Also, in general, I have found that used classical records usually have been handled more carefully and played less.

If you haven't done much classical (and reading AS, my sense is that most of you don't) then start with the big names - Beethoven, Mozart, Tchaikovsky, Bach, Brahms, etc. and then move on to more, and more and more.

Larry

Originally Posted by Mike

SOME of the new music today is rubbish. It's a drum machine (do they still call it that? Maybe I'm dating myself) and some guy or gal with horrible offensive lyrics that rhyme (case in point: Nicki Minaj - Anaconda - YouTube). Then again, I stumble upon someone like Liz Longley and I'm interested (case in point: Liz Longley - Ain't Too Good To Be True - YouTube AND Liz Longley - Unraveling - YouTube). If you don't get a little tear from listening to that last song.....

But the problem there remains the quality of recording. Seriously, it sounds so bad. Must be all that DSP they use in the recording studios these days.

Then again, I look at most of the music from the 80's and it sucks. The 90's weren't much better.

I guess the moral of the story here is that we all like different music for different reasons and music, in and of itself, doesn't have era's, it is one continuous line of good and bad.