Thread: Acoustic Room Treatments vs DSP

Let's face it, once you get beyond proper speaker placement, most rooms are still a problem. Most rooms require some TLC to get just right....not too hot, not too cold....wait, no, that's something else. Not too dead/not too lively.

As DSP continues to advance in terms of technology both outside the speaker and inside the speaker, are we reaching a point where behemoth treatments will go the way of the Dodo Bird?

Case in point: I had the opportunity to hear the Avantgarde Zero XD's. The left speaker was jammed into a corner and the right speaker was out into the middle of the room. I thought for sure this would not sound good. Boy, was I wrong. It sounded incredible. I listened for over two hours to be sure - both digital and analog. The depth of soundstage, the precise bass, the clarity was incredible.

With regards to DSP, there isn't really a good way of incorporating DSP with vinyl - unless of course, you digitize your vinyl (GASP!). But digitizing your vinyl is precisely how the Devialet handles the analog signal, and you know what? It sounds DAMN GOOD and offers incredible customization not found in many (any?) analog phonostage.

I kind of think DSP will be the next wave to hit hifi over the next 5 or 10 years.

What do you think?

I think some would argue it's already here. I'm not ready to surrender my analog to digital yet.

I agree with both of you above however, if aesthetics and WAF permits, "the room" should be given the best opportunity to sing even if the room treatment is a subtle one.

Originally Posted by Vapor1

Room treatments should be first, with proper measurements as well. If your room is storing energy at certain frequencies, DSP doesn't fix things in the time domain. Get your rooms decay times even first.

Goldmund suggests that the Leonardo tech integrated into their Proteus design and DRC software model deals with the time domain as well. in fct, Goldmund is obsessed with speed and time even in their amps. There is a 9 minute Youtube on this by their CEO Michel Reverchon.

Ryan, I dont all that much about this, so I take you point. However, does that only apply to microphone type of DSP? Goldmund's Proteus/Leonardo uses no microphone, rather they map the room and speaker design with up to 44,000 parameters and compensate matchematically for all this with an egghead algorithm that took 7 years to develop. I suspect they do some work with other leading names in the speaker business too, as I have seen speakers from well heeled names there (2 I know of, one of which is mentioned in a 6moons review).

Pretueus is used for end to end design of new speakers with no human ear tuning interaction, and it also does DRC for home theratre and 2 channel setups.

Have a look at their website to see if you can make heads or tail of their white papers (freely downloadable). It is over my head!

Originally Posted by wisnon

Ryan, I dont all that much about this, so I take you point. However, does that only apply to microphone type of DSP? Goldmund's Proteus/Leonardo uses no microphone, rather they map the room and speaker design with up to 44,000 parameters and compensate matchematically for all this with an egghead algorithm that took 7 years to develop. I suspect they do some work with other leading names in the speaker business too, as I have seen speakers from well heeled names there (2 I know of, one of which is mentioned in a 6moons review).

Pretueus is used for end to end design of new speakers with no human ear tuning interaction, and it also does DRC for home theratre and 2 channel setups.

Have a look at their website to see if you can make heads or tail of their white papers (freely downloadable). It is over my head!

Linn do something similarly half baked, why don't they just acoustically measure the individual room.
Keith.

They believe that modelling the room is the superior approach to using mics.
I have to say that The Anatta demo I had there was the most impressive demo I ever had, I have heard a few mega buck systems outside of shows!

It just saves asking the customer to come to grips with microphones and room measurement software, or even worse from their perspective paying someone to measure the room.
Keith.

The McIntosh MEN220 Room Correction System has the power to optimize the sonic characteristics of a room. Based on Steinway Lyngdorf's Room Perfect system, the McIntosh MEN220 uses a calibrated microphone and DSP signal generator to capture multiple room measurements, then uses the Room Perfect software algorithms to build active filters to control a room's acoustic anomalies at a Focus position as well as Global positioning application. It is a powerful DSP approach to integrating speakers to individual rooms and focus points to desired listening positions. As a bonus, the MEN220 also provides sophisticated two-way active crossover functionality.

I have used the MEN220 successfully in my living room system. I also used acoustic panels and corner bass traps while using the MEN220 and achieved remarkable results. There came a time when source component improvements exceeded the MEN220's ability to remain completely transparent. The DAC's in the MEN220 began to act as a bottleneck to the performance of my digital source. At that time I removed the MEN220 from the system, made some acoustic treatment adjustments and additions in the room and now feel I have no need for a DSP component in the signal path.

In my studio system I strictly use bass traps, acoustic panels and diffusion panels to tame the room's acoustic anomalies and have never felt it necessary to consider a DSP component in that system. By measuring and adjusting the various panels locations the results have been astonishing.

I can see where the inclusion of DSP in a sound system can provide excellent benefits. Were McIntosh to update the MEN220 with leading edge DAC's I might be incline to go with that approach again just to see what can be achieved. One thing that left a thought in the back of my mind when using the MEN220, or for that matter any DSP in an analog signal path, is the re-digitizing of signals that have already been through a D to A process in a source component or worse, the digitizing of analog signals from a phono cartridge that you wish to remain in the analog domain. Even in Bypass mode the MEN220 still digitized the incoming signals. Bypass merely removed the Room Perfect filters from the path. This always nagged at my consciousness no matter how good the DSP worked.

I am a firm believer in physical acoustic treatments as a first and perhaps final step in tailoring a room's acoustic signature. Both of my systems reap large benefits from this approach to controlling acoustic anomalies in my sound systems.

Originally Posted by Purité Audio

It just saves asking the customer to come to grips with microphones and room measurement software, or even worse from their perspective paying someone to measure the room.
Keith.

Nah Keith, with their margins, that is not an issue!

Here is the blurb: Goldmund - Technologies

In audio more than any other domain, time is of the essence. A proper time alignment is crucial in what we call the Recognition Factor, which is the ability of our brain to recognize a sound as real (high recognition factor) vs. reproduced (low recognition factor).The time alignment technology used in Proteus is called the Leonardo Time Correction. In a system that does not use time correction the listener’s brain concentrates on reconstructing the time alignment of a sound that it perceives as un-natural (time distortion does not exist in nature).In a system that includes a Leonardo configuration, this action is performed by the audio system itself, leaving the brain focus on the music itself and on the true emotion that a completely natural sound brings to each passionate music listener.A Leonardo configuration is a digital file used by the Goldmund processor. The file’s parameters are calculated based on the speaker’s technical specifications. All recent Goldmund speakers function with Leonardo configurations as part of the Proteus technology.For more technical insights on Leonardo, download the white paper below.

Proteus Technology

The primary objective of the Proteus project was to develop a technology that would allow us to make the most perfect speaker on earth.
This took the company 7 years of painstaking research and development efforts and resulted in the creation of the Epilogue 1 Signature. Our acoustic laboratory was prompt to discover that Proteus could also be applied to many other speakers (even those manufactured by other brands), optimizing their performance.
Many tests have been performed by High End specialists where the performance and sound qualities of the same system are compared with and without the Proteus Technology. They are unanimous on the improvements brought and some have qualified Proteus as “The most powerful invention in audio history”.
High End professionals and customers’ comments on the enhancements provided by Proteus and Leonardo have been listed below:

• Incredible spaciousness,
• Each instrument is positioned at its correct place,
• Complete stability of the image,
• Perfectly well defined trebles,
• Extremely neat bass,
• Ultra high definition and precision in the voices,
• Higher playback levels without distortion,
• No fatigue to the listener, even at extremely high levels,
• Ultra-realistic surround image in multichannel systems

What this means in short is that a system using Proteus provides the most lifelike sound that anyone has ever heard.
The Proteus technology is used in all recent Goldmund Speakers and Acoustic Processors.
Leonardo, a revolutionary technology that allows correcting the time distortion in crossovers, is integral part of Proteus.
Download the white paper below for additional information on Proteus.

Marketing hyperbole aside, the Anatta demo was very impressive in a huge room with minimal physical room treatment, becuase they said it is meant for testing gear and a perfect room would defeat the purpose.

Originally Posted by Mike

Let's face it, once you get beyond proper speaker placement, most rooms are still a problem. Most rooms require some TLC to get just right....not too hot, not too cold....wait, no, that's something else. Not too dead/not too lively.

As DSP continues to advance in terms of technology both outside the speaker and inside the speaker, are we reaching a point where behemoth treatments will go the way of the Dodo Bird?

Case in point: I had the opportunity to hear the Avantgarde Zero XD's. The left speaker was jammed into a corner and the right speaker was out into the middle of the room. I thought for sure this would not sound good. Boy, was I wrong. It sounded incredible. I listened for over two hours to be sure - both digital and analog. The depth of soundstage, the precise bass, the clarity was incredible.

With regards to DSP, there isn't really a good way of incorporating DSP with vinyl - unless of course, you digitize your vinyl (GASP!). But digitizing your vinyl is precisely how the Devialet handles the analog signal, and you know what? It sounds DAMN GOOD and offers incredible customization not found in many (any?) analog phonostage.

I kind of think DSP will be the next wave to hit hifi over the next 5 or 10 years.

What do you think?

I think this is a great discussion to have. I have over-treated one room and been over cautious with the next.

Many Audiophiles I have met have taken treatments out. Some panels take a generic approach in damping a range of frequencies when a wide range may not be the issue.

DSP may allow us to fine tune after judicious treatment.

I am a big fan of the Stillpoint Apertures. I purchased two ( thanks Mike ) and they made a noticeable difference in my room. Adding a bit of focus and clarity to the soundstage and presentation.

I do have measurement software which I do intend to run in a few weeks once I better understand how to use the software.

Originally Posted by Odyssey

I think this is a great discussion to have. I have over-treated one room and been over cautious with the next.

Many Audiophiles I have met have taken treatments out. Some panels take a generic approach in damping a range of frequencies when a wide range may not be the issue.

DSP may allow us to fine tune after judicious treatment.

Le Roy.......I don't consider myself a person with digital phobia but I do have some concerns about digitizing analog signals from vinyl playback. I also have some trepidation about re-digitizing digital source signals that have already been through a D to A conversion. The thought of double digitizing audio signals, another A/D and D/A signal processing, creates some anxiety in my mind.

Big fan of Vicoustic Wavewood which are a diffusion/absorportion panel.

I chose timber based room treatments as I feel wood has properties that maintain the naturally live vibrancy of music.

Quadraspire Sunoko racks, Vicoustic panels and a raised timber floating floor all manage to keep it real.

Most theatres, auditoriums and recording studios use wood somewhere. I wanted to achieve room harmonics similar to the Sydney Opera House and I found that timber is the way to go.

Nothing worse than a dead sucked out flat room full of heavy absorption.

Miska said he does DRC in DSD, but didnt answer me as to how.

As I am limited on how far I can go with room treatments due to WAF, I am very interested in DSP for room correction but I know nothing about it at all. Can this room equalization be done with software on my Mac Mini (i.e. Audirvana, JRiver, Amarra, Pure Music, HQPlayer, etc.) or is it done at a later step through a component like Accuphase DG-58? What other types of components are available and how do they work (i.e. Mini DSP)? Are they employed before or after the DAC? It's all very confusing to me at this point.

Thanks,
Ken

It totally depends on the Room, the Room, the Room

If you have bass gain issues, nodes etc etc, no room treatment will correct that. The only thing that will provide any help is DSP speaker/room eq correction.
I have a particularly bad room and only Deqx speaker correction and eq for 250hz and under have helped the bass issues.

I have just swapped rooms with the TV room. It's quite a lot smaller and low and behold, it sounds a lot better. Most of my bass issues have gone. I am left with normal room issues.

So yes, depending on the room, DSP eq might be essential as tweaking the upper frequency's is easy.

Originally Posted by Audiophile bill

Hi Norman,

Is that Mr Hqplayer?

yes

Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor

Some points:
1) I don't think people should be philosophically anti-DSP, even for analog sources. Best system I have heard was re-digitizing everything (both upstream analog and digital sources) for speaker and room correction. I guess you have to hear these things for yourself.

2) Many confuse speaker and room correction. Some of the "room correction" algorithms like Dirac are also doing speaker correction (correcting the direct sound), so I understand how this confusion has come about. Basically, think of room correction as the lower frequencies below say 300Hz, where room modes dominate. Above this the speaker dominates the response, so if you correct up there you are doing speaker correction.

3) Above about 8kHz the measurement mics become directional, so they are not really picking up what the speaker is doing properly.

4) The general approach that nearly all professional home theater designers have settled on is to use EQ only for the lowest frequencies, say under 100Hz, and only where passive treatment becomes excessively large. If your room is well designed you may need no EQ.

5) Most people have never measured their room, and so don't know how bad it really is.

6) Most people have no reference for really good bass, because most playback systems have massive bass peaks and dips.

Have you tried Dspeaker AM2?

Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor

That's exactly what I thought when I read up on what they were doing...

Proteus is both speaker driver/x-over dsp, like Devialet SAM and DRC.

Ken - the products from Deqx are some of the best and I believe Nyal can come to your room, measure and make suggestions on which DEQX product.

Another product that is quite popular is miniDSP: http://www.minidsp.com

You might also check out Illusonic, superb kit, and Christof Faller ( Illusonic ) ,creates the EQ for your room personally, of all the solutions I have tried, Tact,Trinnov,Dirac, MiniDSP , Illusonic has provided the finest sound quality in my room to date.
Keith.

Originally Posted by XV-1

It totally depends on the Room, the Room, the Room

If you have bass gain issues, nodes etc etc, no room treatment will correct that. The only thing that will provide any help is DSP speaker/room eq correction.

No, it's always the source/room. No source, no room modes excited. This is easily demonstrated, but unfortunately 99.99% of audiophiles don't understand that the "source" doesn't have to be a omnipresent omni-radiating bass monopole.



GamuT RS7 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com









Gradient Revolution loudspeaker John Atkinson March 1997 | Stereophile.com


Same room. Very different results, including no "room" 30ish Hz bass peaking.

cheers,

AJ

Originally Posted by Purité Audio

Linn do something similarly half baked, why don't they just acoustically measure the individual room.
Keith.

Sorry but I would like to oppose to this statement.
Two years ago I have followed an extensive room measurement program with measuring mic in the CARMA software with my AudioNET DNP pre-amp. The correction that came out of that corrected the bass in the 26 and 60 Hz region.
A very effective correction that improved the sound in a remarkable level.


After Linn introduced Space Optimization I immediately programmed my speakers and the room sizes / materials. The correction that comes out of it is really close to the measured correction on the Audionet amplifier DSP. Of course the speaker correction à la Devialet takes already a big part of the correction.




I would't say Linn's solution is half baked. It is an effective, simplified way of using DSP and it is accessible to everybody.

Originally Posted by Purité Audio

You might also check out Illusonic, superb kit, and Christof Faller ( Illusonic ) ,creates the EQ for your room personally, of all the solutions I have tried, Tact,Trinnov,Dirac, MiniDSP , Illusonic has provided the finest sound quality in my room to date.
Keith.

Again, like Goldmund, Christof uses the egghead brain power of EPFL and the Zurich tech Institute to create advanced software applications! Many ways to skin that cat!

Hans,

Golmund Proteus does similar to Devialet SANM for the speakers and does the RCB with room dimensions. As it can work with up to 44,000 parameters, the more accurate the measurements you throw into it, the better will be the output. The Leonardo component of Proteus somehow deals with the time domain.

I have no idea behind the details of how all this works...

Norman I do believe Goldmund has an excellent product. I was just opposing the statement that Linn offers a half baked product. Yes it is for free but IMO it is rather excellent! I do realize this can be done way better.

Originally Posted by Glareskin

Norman I do believe Goldmund has an excellent product. I was just opposing the statement that Linn offers a half baked product. Yes it is for free but IMO it is rather excellent! I do realize this can be done way better.

Totally agree. I dont think that direction is half baked at all and when done right, may blow the mic route away in terms of absolute results.
I think that Ilusonic uses some of the same thinking, even though it is mic based.

Originally Posted by wisnon

Totally agree. I dont think that direction is half baked at all and when done right, may blow the mic route away in terms of absolute results.
I think that Ilusonic uses some of the same thinking, even though it is mic based.

How could crawling around with a tape measure possibly be preferable or lead to a better result?
It is half baked, and no amount of marketing can disguise that, Illusonic is microphone based, taking measurements of the listening position but also surrounding the listening position, Illusonic have their own software ,so you can see exactly what is happening.
Kei.

Keith, I have been to Illusonic labs in Lausanne and know Christof very well.

Tell me, a software that can design speakers from scratch, match amps perfectly to drivers and cabinet and X-over networks and accepts up to 44,00 room parameters sounds half baked to you?
They computer model your room in 3D and do the necessary compensations. These are not just EQ either as Leaonardo deal with the time domain.
Also, you never heard of laser pointer measurment devices?

Goldmund philosophy on TIME distortion… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjF2O9lbddg

Marketing? i heard the Anattas and was blown away and lamented at the outrageous price. I know that the future is already here, but clearly far outside the realm of my pocket!

I await the Kii which will sell for far more real world pricing.

Originally Posted by wisnon

Keith, I have been to Illusonic labs in Lausanne and know Christof very well.

Tell me, a software that can design speakers from scratch, match amps perfectly to drivers and cabinet and X-over networks and accepts up to 44,00 room parameters sounds half baked to you? Also, you never heard of laser pointer measurment devices?

Marketing? i heard the Anattas and was blown away and lamented at the outrageous price. I know that the future is already here, but clearly far outside the realm of my pocket!

I await the Kii which will sell for far more real world pricing.

A $10 dollar MiniDSP plug in, will create your DSP crossovers and accurately EQ your room—
with the use of a microphone!
Keith.

Originally Posted by Audiophile bill

Hi Ken,

You can implement the dsp via your mac via jriver for example. Basically think of it that when you play an album from the library, the music is corrected in the digital domain before transmission to your dac via USB or whatever route. In addition to this route, one might decide to go for one of the purpose built "box" solutions (such as Trinnov etc) - for the latter you typically insert into the chain post preamp (or bin off your pre as some of these boxes do volume control also).

I would personally hang fire on the box solution due to the financial outlay compared to downloading software. That way you can dip your toes into the world of dsp without investing too much.

Hope this helps as a very watered down introduction.

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your post. I really like this option because I want to make these adjustments in the digital domain before the DAC. Once the music is converted to analog, I really don't want anything extra in the signal chain. Can any of these box solution be placed in the signal chain before the DAC or are they all after the DAC?

Best,
Ken

Originally Posted by wisnon

Hans,

Golmund Proteus does similar to Devialet SANM for the speakers and does the RCB with room dimensions. As it can work with up to 44,000 parameters, the more accurate the measurements you throw into it, the better will be the output. The Leonardo component of Proteus somehow deals with the time domain.

I have no idea behind the details of how all this works...

Norman no doubt it works but there is a BIG catch, it has to be loaded in one of Goldmunds pre-amps like the Mimesis 16, 16HD or 32 or the Metis 10 and also you need a Goldmund amp.

Originally Posted by Alpinist

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your post. I really like this option because I want to make these adjustments in the digital domain before the DAC. Once the music is converted to analog, I really don't want anything extra in the signal chain. Can any of these box solution be placed in the signal chain before the DAC or are they all after the DAC?

Best,
Ken

Ken - the challenge with this approach for me, would be how to deal with vinyl/R2R.

I like a product like this:

DEQX High Definition Audio

Output from Preamp into the DEQX PreMate+ and then from PreMate+ into amps.

Originally Posted by CPP

Norman no doubt it works but there is a BIG catch, it has to be loaded in one of Goldmunds pre-amps like the Mimesis 16, 16HD or 32 or the Metis 10 and also you need a Goldmund amp.

Yes, agreed Chris, BUT we are talking about their active speakers, so the amps and Dacs are already IN the speakers (which are SaM-ed by definition). The speakers can work off a computer with wifi dongle, but I imgines that Proteus DRC needs the Mimesis Hub.
The whole thing wont be cheap, as Goldmund is priced way up there.

Originally Posted by wisnon

Yes, agreed Chris, BUT we are talking about their active speakers, so the amps and Dacs are already IN the speakers (which are SaM-ed by definition). The speakers can work off a computer with wifi dongle, but I imgines that Proteus DRC needs the Mimesis Hub.
The whole thing wont be cheap, as Goldmund is priced way up there.

No doubt you can use your own speakers but then again you have to buy their electronics for it to be effective. And $$$ well we know how costly Goldmund is. That little Dirac software package and a quality mic (calibrated) is looking cheaper all the time.