Acoustic Room Treatments vs DSP

I think some would argue it's already here. I'm not ready to surrender my analog to digital yet.

I agree with both of you above however, if aesthetics and WAF permits, "the room" should be given the best opportunity to sing even if the room treatment is a subtle one.

I prefer acoustic treatment plus DSP used to fix problems that remain.

Room treatments should be first, with proper measurements as well. If your room is storing energy at certain frequencies, DSP doesn't fix things in the time domain. Get your rooms decay times even first.

Vapor1 said:

Room treatments should be first, with proper measurements as well. If your room is storing energy at certain frequencies, DSP doesn't fix things in the time domain. Get your rooms decay times even first.

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Goldmund suggests that the Leonardo tech integrated into their Proteus design and DRC software model deals with the time domain as well. in fct, Goldmund is obsessed with speed and time even in their amps. There is a 9 minute Youtube on this by their CEO Michel Reverchon.

wisnon said:

Goldmund suggests that the Leonardo tech integrated into their Proteus design and DRC software model deals with the time domain as well. in fct, Goldmund is obsessed with speed and time even in their amps. There is a 9 minute Youtube on this by their CEO Michel Reverchon.

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Most DSP manufacturers say that, but it's only partially true. The real issue is if your room has a resonance, is storing energy at certain frequencies, the only way to keep it from being an issue is to never allow those frequencies to be played. DSP cannot change decay times, the physical geometry and makeup of the room determine that. Evening out decay times is the primary goal of room acoustic treatments.

In short, DSP is no substitute for proper treatments.

The best example of DSP is in Marty's system in NJ, which is also a superbly designed room. Pictures at the bottom of the first post in the below link.

He uses a modded TacT, and has it after the VTL preamp, before the Spectral 400, and has his Goldmund Studio TT running into the pre, so is doing A to D to A which theoretically shouldn't work but actually works beautifully. Worth visiting his place to challenge our own audiophile biases.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...l=1#post227662

Ryan, I dont all that much about this, so I take you point. However, does that only apply to microphone type of DSP? Goldmund's Proteus/Leonardo uses no microphone, rather they map the room and speaker design with up to 44,000 parameters and compensate matchematically for all this with an egghead algorithm that took 7 years to develop. I suspect they do some work with other leading names in the speaker business too, as I have seen speakers from well heeled names there (2 I know of, one of which is mentioned in a 6moons review).

Pretueus is used for end to end design of new speakers with no human ear tuning interaction, and it also does DRC for home theratre and 2 channel setups.

Have a look at their website to see if you can make heads or tail of their white papers (freely downloadable). It is over my head!

wisnon said:

Ryan, I dont all that much about this, so I take you point. However, does that only apply to microphone type of DSP? Goldmund's Proteus/Leonardo uses no microphone, rather they map the room and speaker design with up to 44,000 parameters and compensate matchematically for all this with an egghead algorithm that took 7 years to develop. I suspect they do some work with other leading names in the speaker business too, as I have seen speakers from well heeled names there (2 I know of, one of which is mentioned in a 6moons review).

Pretueus is used for end to end design of new speakers with no human ear tuning interaction, and it also does DRC for home theratre and 2 channel setups.

Have a look at their website to see if you can make heads or tail of their white papers (freely downloadable). It is over my head!

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Linn do something similarly half baked, why don't they just acoustically measure the individual room.
Keith.

They believe that modelling the room is the superior approach to using mics.
I have to say that The Anatta demo I had there was the most impressive demo I ever had, I have heard a few mega buck systems outside of shows!

It just saves asking the customer to come to grips with microphones and room measurement software, or even worse from their perspective paying someone to measure the room.
Keith.

The McIntosh MEN220 Room Correction System has the power to optimize the sonic characteristics of a room. Based on Steinway Lyngdorf's Room Perfect system, the McIntosh MEN220 uses a calibrated microphone and DSP signal generator to capture multiple room measurements, then uses the Room Perfect software algorithms to build active filters to control a room's acoustic anomalies at a Focus position as well as Global positioning application. It is a powerful DSP approach to integrating speakers to individual rooms and focus points to desired listening positions. As a bonus, the MEN220 also provides sophisticated two-way active crossover functionality.

I have used the MEN220 successfully in my living room system. I also used acoustic panels and corner bass traps while using the MEN220 and achieved remarkable results. There came a time when source component improvements exceeded the MEN220's ability to remain completely transparent. The DAC's in the MEN220 began to act as a bottleneck to the performance of my digital source. At that time I removed the MEN220 from the system, made some acoustic treatment adjustments and additions in the room and now feel I have no need for a DSP component in the signal path.

In my studio system I strictly use bass traps, acoustic panels and diffusion panels to tame the room's acoustic anomalies and have never felt it necessary to consider a DSP component in that system. By measuring and adjusting the various panels locations the results have been astonishing.

I can see where the inclusion of DSP in a sound system can provide excellent benefits. Were McIntosh to update the MEN220 with leading edge DAC's I might be incline to go with that approach again just to see what can be achieved. One thing that left a thought in the back of my mind when using the MEN220, or for that matter any DSP in an analog signal path, is the re-digitizing of signals that have already been through a D to A process in a source component or worse, the digitizing of analog signals from a phono cartridge that you wish to remain in the analog domain. Even in Bypass mode the MEN220 still digitized the incoming signals. Bypass merely removed the Room Perfect filters from the path. This always nagged at my consciousness no matter how good the DSP worked.

I am a firm believer in physical acoustic treatments as a first and perhaps final step in tailoring a room's acoustic signature. Both of my systems reap large benefits from this approach to controlling acoustic anomalies in my sound systems.

Purité Audio said:

It just saves asking the customer to come to grips with microphones and room measurement software, or even worse from their perspective paying someone to measure the room.
Keith.

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Nah Keith, with their margins, that is not an issue!

Here is the blurb: Goldmund - Technologies

In audio more than any other domain, time is of the essence. A proper time alignment is crucial in what we call the Recognition Factor, which is the ability of our brain to recognize a sound as real (high recognition factor) vs. reproduced (low recognition factor).The time alignment technology used in Proteus is called the Leonardo Time Correction. In a system that does not use time correction the listener’s brain concentrates on reconstructing the time alignment of a sound that it perceives as un-natural (time distortion does not exist in nature).In a system that includes a Leonardo configuration, this action is performed by the audio system itself, leaving the brain focus on the music itself and on the true emotion that a completely natural sound brings to each passionate music listener.A Leonardo configuration is a digital file used by the Goldmund processor. The file’s parameters are calculated based on the speaker’s technical specifications. All recent Goldmund speakers function with Leonardo configurations as part of the Proteus technology.For more technical insights on Leonardo, download the white paper below.

[h=2]Proteus Technology[/h]

The primary objective of the Proteus project was to develop a technology that would allow us to make the most perfect speaker on earth.
This took the company 7 years of painstaking research and development efforts and resulted in the creation of the Epilogue 1 Signature. Our acoustic laboratory was prompt to discover that Proteus could also be applied to many other speakers (even those manufactured by other brands), optimizing their performance.
Many tests have been performed by High End specialists where the performance and sound qualities of the same system are compared with and without the Proteus Technology. They are unanimous on the improvements brought and some have qualified Proteus as “The most powerful invention in audio history”.
High End professionals and customers’ comments on the enhancements provided by Proteus and Leonardo have been listed below:

• Incredible spaciousness,
• Each instrument is positioned at its correct place,
• Complete stability of the image,
• Perfectly well defined trebles,
• Extremely neat bass,
• Ultra high definition and precision in the voices,
• Higher playback levels without distortion,
• No fatigue to the listener, even at extremely high levels,
• Ultra-realistic surround image in multichannel systems

What this means in short is that a system using Proteus provides the most lifelike sound that anyone has ever heard.
The Proteus technology is used in all recent Goldmund Speakers and Acoustic Processors.
Leonardo, a revolutionary technology that allows correcting the time distortion in crossovers, is integral part of Proteus.
Download the white paper below for additional information on Proteus.

Marketing hyperbole aside, the Anatta demo was very impressive in a huge room with minimal physical room treatment, becuase they said it is meant for testing gear and a perfect room would defeat the purpose.

Mike said:

Let's face it, once you get beyond proper speaker placement, most rooms are still a problem. Most rooms require some TLC to get just right....not too hot, not too cold....wait, no, that's something else. Not too dead/not too lively.

As DSP continues to advance in terms of technology both outside the speaker and inside the speaker, are we reaching a point where behemoth treatments will go the way of the Dodo Bird?

Case in point: I had the opportunity to hear the Avantgarde Zero XD's. The left speaker was jammed into a corner and the right speaker was out into the middle of the room. I thought for sure this would not sound good. Boy, was I wrong. It sounded incredible. I listened for over two hours to be sure - both digital and analog. The depth of soundstage, the precise bass, the clarity was incredible.

With regards to DSP, there isn't really a good way of incorporating DSP with vinyl - unless of course, you digitize your vinyl (GASP!). But digitizing your vinyl is precisely how the Devialet handles the analog signal, and you know what? It sounds DAMN GOOD and offers incredible customization not found in many (any?) analog phonostage.

I kind of think DSP will be the next wave to hit hifi over the next 5 or 10 years.

What do you think?

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I think this is a great discussion to have. I have over-treated one room and been over cautious with the next.

Many Audiophiles I have met have taken treatments out. Some panels take a generic approach in damping a range of frequencies when a wide range may not be the issue.

DSP may allow us to fine tune after judicious treatment.

I am a big fan of the Stillpoint Apertures. I purchased two ( thanks Mike ) and they made a noticeable difference in my room. Adding a bit of focus and clarity to the soundstage and presentation.

I do have measurement software which I do intend to run in a few weeks once I better understand how to use the software.

Odyssey said:

I think this is a great discussion to have. I have over-treated one room and been over cautious with the next.

Many Audiophiles I have met have taken treatments out. Some panels take a generic approach in damping a range of frequencies when a wide range may not be the issue.

DSP may allow us to fine tune after judicious treatment.

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Le Roy.......I don't consider myself a person with digital phobia but I do have some concerns about digitizing analog signals from vinyl playback. I also have some trepidation about re-digitizing digital source signals that have already been through a D to A conversion. The thought of double digitizing audio signals, another A/D and D/A signal processing, creates some anxiety in my mind.

Big fan of Vicoustic Wavewood which are a diffusion/absorportion panel.

I chose timber based room treatments as I feel wood has properties that maintain the naturally live vibrancy of music.

Quadraspire Sunoko racks, Vicoustic panels and a raised timber floating floor all manage to keep it real.

Most theatres, auditoriums and recording studios use wood somewhere. I wanted to achieve room harmonics similar to the Sydney Opera House and I found that timber is the way to go.

Nothing worse than a dead sucked out flat room full of heavy absorption.