Network switch, FMC, cable upgrades worthwhile when router can't be co-located?

**pmrogers** · February 24, 2020, 10:19 PM

Hi All,

Long-time lurker first post here, have very much appreciated all of the great discussion.

I'm looking to add high-quality internet streaming to my predominantly vinyl and spinning disc digital 2-channel system. After much skepticism I've come around on the potential SQ impact of quality network switches, FMC, cabling etc. I'd like to upgrade appropriately.

But my home is arranged such that the ISP router can only be located in an equipment room that is separated from the listening area by approximately 250 feet of cat5e in-wall cabling.

Given these limitations to the source network signal, is there any gain to be had from upgrading cabling, switches etc starting from the wall jack in my listening room?

If of interest, the primary options I'm considering are a dCS Bartok, MSB Premiere+Renderer, or an Innuos Zenith MK3 feeding either an ADI-2 DAC or the DAC built in to my McIntosh MCD500.

Thanks in advance for any input!

**Mike** · February 24, 2020, 10:23 PM

Hello and welcome!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Phishphan** · February 27, 2020, 10:36 AM

Data signals are 1's and 0's. It either works or doesn't.

I upgraded to a faster gaming router and switch just to offset any potential delays in streaming high res files from my NAS. But networking equipment isn't going to improve the sound.

I was a Cisco network certified administrator and designer in college. Just didn't follow that career path.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**13th Note HiFi Reviews** · February 28, 2020, 06:28 PM

I’ve answered this question Lots of times as it comes up a lot. I’m not blaming you lol. You need a network extender which has WiFi capability to link to your router ie Ariels like your router. Then it has Ethernet sockets too. So you connect your streamer to it like it’s your router and you can put it with your HiFi. In that sense the extender works like a lan without all the cabling and it will be as fast as your internet if you get a half decent one. I use net gear nighthawk. Avoid switches if you can as they inject Hf noise from their cheap power supplies. Use a good quality short Ethernet cable from your extender and job done. I’ve reviewed the Bartok, Zenith albeit mk2 which I own and I have an Adi2 dac fs at the moment. Check my website out.

**13th Note HiFi Reviews** · February 28, 2020, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by Phishphan

Data signals are 1's and 0's. It either works or doesn't.

I upgraded to a faster gaming router and switch just to offset any potential delays in streaming high res files from my NAS. But networking equipment isn't going to improve the sound.

I was a Cisco network certified administrator and designer in college. Just didn't follow that career path.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

it will because of the analogue effects of noise on the digital cable and if you use rubbish NAS drives with cheap switchers built for PCs and it degrades the sound. Not a lot or at all in some budget systems but a good amount in others.

**Willco** · February 28, 2020, 10:45 PM

How about bypassing all the cat 5 ethernet cable and use fmcs and fiber to connect from your router to listening room?

You might want to peruse this thread at What's Best Forum. It has some good information. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threa...-modems.30094/

**13th Note HiFi Reviews** · February 28, 2020, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Willco

How about bypassing all the cat 5 ethernet cable and use fmcs and fiber to connect from your router to listening room?

You might want to peruse this thread at What's Best Forum. It has some good information. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threa...-modems.30094/

very complex, the extender idea can be done cheaply and adequately for purpose. I’ve run all sorts of digital streaming DACs and servers off mine no probs. Don’t need messy power line, installing ducts and messing about. Original reason I got mine was to avoid drilling through walls.

**BlueFox** · February 28, 2020, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Phishphan

Data signals are 1's and 0's. It either works or doesn't.

I upgraded to a faster gaming router and switch just to offset any potential delays in streaming high res files from my NAS. But networking equipment isn't going to improve the sound.

I was a Cisco network certified administrator and designer in college. Just didn't follow that career path.

Not true. First, digital signals are transmitted as an analog signal. As the analog signal to digital signal is reconstructed by any gear in the path the rise and fall time can be skewed. This doesn’t affect data, but puts jitter into musical data.

**nicoff** · February 28, 2020, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by BlueFox

Not true. First, digital signals are transmitted as an analog signal. As the analog signal to digital signal is reconstructed by any gear in the path the rise and fall time can be skewed. This doesn’t affect data, but puts jitter into musical data.

Here is a technical explanation on why even if digital signals are being transmitted as analog in the end it does not really matter. Blog post also explains why jitter is really not a big issue when using modern digital equipment.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/0...-lets-not.html

**13th Note HiFi Reviews** · February 29, 2020, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by nicoff

Here is a technical explanation on why even if digital signals are being transmitted as analog in the end it does not really matter. Blog post also explains why jitter is really not a big issue when using modern digital equipment.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/0...-lets-not.html

nobody who knows anything about HiFi believes that guy. Blue fox dead right here.

**kzhtoo** · February 29, 2020, 03:07 AM

Try it yourself. Find some money back guarantee options.

**nicoff** · February 29, 2020, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by 13th Note HiFi Reviews

nobody who knows anything about HiFi believes that guy. Blue fox dead right here.

Let me guess... You must be a reviewer or somebody in the business...

**Alkyogre** · February 29, 2020, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by BlueFox

Not true. First, digital signals are transmitted as an analog signal. As the analog signal to digital signal is reconstructed by any gear in the path the rise and fall time can be skewed. This doesn’t affect data, but puts jitter into musical data.

just my thinking: a file on my pc downloaded from the internet is the same file stored on the original server. It is data. That data is transported from all servers over the world, it crosses the ocean, transported by a few servers, before it reaches my house. And then it still has to pass the first ISP modem, a second router and lastly the final accesspoint on which my network player is connected. In that whole chain of data transformers, I have no idea on which device to start changing. my modem is delivered by the ISP, so there is no way to change that. It is brand X and you have to use it. What to change, router or AP, , while my modem is a fixed item brand X. in my opinion, I cannot change all the internet in my own home, not to talk about every individual server outside. Is there an easier solution to bypass the whole problem of the chain of all servers? Store the original data file on my own SSD harddisc in my own house. which is located after the last switch, stored on a Roon main server. Is it an idea to have downloaded first the file with Tidal or Qobuz, store it to your Roon server, and when listening the sound is delivered instantly from your Roon server, instead of setting up a stream? In my opinion the file on the Roon server is the same as on the original server, so no need for complicated switches. Or do I miss something crucial here?

**kzhtoo** · February 29, 2020, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Alkyogre

just my thinking: a file on my pc downloaded from the internet is the same file stored on the original server. It is data. That data is transported from all servers over the world, it crosses the ocean, transported by a few servers, before it reaches my house. And then it still has to pass the first ISP modem, a second router and lastly the final accesspoint on which my network player is connected. In that whole chain of data transformers, I have no idea on which device to start changing. my modem is delivered by the ISP, so there is no way to change that. It is brand X and you have to use it. What to change, router or AP, , while my modem is a fixed item brand X. in my opinion, I cannot change all the internet in my own home, not to talk about every individual server outside. Is there an easier solution to bypass the whole problem of the chain of all servers? Store the original data file on my own SSD harddisc in my own house. which is located after the last switch, stored on a Roon main server. Is it an idea to have downloaded first the file with Tidal or Qobuz, store it to your Roon server, and when listening the sound is delivered instantly from your Roon server, instead of setting up a stream? In my opinion the file on the Roon server is the same as on the original server, so no need for complicated switches. Or do I miss something crucial here?

Yes, you’re just talking. Try it yourself and then come back here.

**Alkyogre** · February 29, 2020, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

Yes, you’re just talking. Try it yourself and then come back here.

What do you think? why is a switch causing jitter in a buffered audio file and is a special audio switch better in reducing it?

**kzhtoo** · March 1, 2020, 01:53 AM

Originally Posted by Alkyogre

What do you think? why is a switch causing jitter in a buffered audio file and is a special audio switch better in reducing it?

There’s plenty you can read online that I need not add anything. If you’re looking for someone to argue with, trying it yourself in your system should be the prerequisite.

**brodricj** · March 2, 2020, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Phishphan

Data signals are 1's and 0's. It either works or doesn't.

Not true, and very easy to demonstrate so. Run 1080P video (i.e. a data signal) over 10m+ HDMI and you might get a crystal clear image, or you might get sparkle artifacts of various degrees. The end result depends on the quality of the cable. Same 1's and 0's going into the source end of the cable.

**nicoff** · March 2, 2020, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by brodricj

Not true, and very easy to demonstrate so. Run 1080P video (i.e. a data signal) over 10m+ HDMI and you might get a crystal clear image, or you might get sparkle artifacts of various degrees. The end result depends on the quality of the cable. Same 1's and 0's going into the source end of the cable.

If you see sparkles or artifacts all that is telling you is that the cable is bad. This has nothing to do with price.

A well performing (i.e., no artifacts) HDMI cable can be an inexpensive cable (monoprice, blue jeans cable, Amazon basics) or it can also be an expensive one.

Let me add that when HDMI cables are too long, you may need to run an active HDMI cable.

**brodricj** · March 2, 2020, 07:11 PM

I didn't mention price as being a determining factor. The point was, it was said they are 1's and 0's going in one end and coming out the other. If so, why do some cables result in artifacts? When you end up with different quality images, some with artifacts, some without, tells you what's coming out the end of the cable are not identical 1's and 0's.

**nicoff** · March 2, 2020, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by brodricj

I didn't mention price as being a determining factor. The point was, it was said they are 1's and 0's going in one end and coming out the other. If so, why do some cables result in artifacts? When you end up with different quality images, some with artifacts, some without, tells you what's coming out the end of the cable are not identical 1's and 0's.

Why do some cables result in artifacts?

Several reasons. One is that HDMI specifications have changed over the years. An old HDMI cable built to standards from ten years ago will not be able to pass 4K signals today. You need HDMI Certified Premium cables to pass 4K signals. I had HDMI 1.0 cables in my wall that I just recently had to replace them because of it. They showed artifacts and freezing of the frame.

Another reason is bad quality construction of the cable. There are cheap and pricey HDMI cables that when tested do not meet the required specifications.

We both agree that the price of the cable has nothing to do with it.

**brad225** · March 3, 2020, 02:08 PM

Do you have coaxial cable coming in to you home? Can you get that directly into your audio equipment location.
If so, look at an ActionTec ECB2500C Bonded MoCA 2.0 Coax to Ethernet adapter.

I only had coax that runs directly from the LNT box on the outside of the house. I really didn't want to convert the signal in the Frontier Router and run the signal via ethernet to my room.

The ActionTec is connected to a modified NetGear network switch that is local to my music room equipment.

This is not to say that when I use my iPad to control my music the router is not involved with the task. Just a direct connection between storage and player exists through the local switch.

If I didn't understand your issue, sorry.

**SoundRebels** · April 10, 2020, 02:00 AM

One of the best dedicated for audio switch - Silent Angel Bonn N8

On market You can find licensed version of Bonn8 interiors - Omnia SW-8 produced by NuPrime (aluminum chassis and low noise power supply).

**Vincent Kars** · April 10, 2020, 05:20 AM

Its performance is measured here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-switch.12360/

**nicoff** · April 10, 2020, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Vincent Kars

Its performance is measured here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-switch.12360/

The reviewer concluded:

“Measurements conclusively prove what I explain above. That the Ethernet switch makes zero difference in the performance of a decent streamer.”

**SoundRebels** · April 10, 2020, 10:58 AM

I suggest listening and after that make conclusions, not before or just after lecture of someone else "poem". And remember - "Writing about Music Is like Dancing about Architecture" ;-)

**Puma Cat** · April 10, 2020, 05:57 PM

As with many discussions around this topic (digital content streaming), there is conflicting info here.

I've spent the last year researching, testing and implementing a robust "streaming" digital front end. By streaming I'm referring to digital music files resident on a hard drive attached to a music server or content provided via a streaming service, e.g. Qobuz, Tidal, etc.

The result and attendant conclusions I've come to is: EVERYTHING matters and is audible.

1) It's not just 1s and 0s. The data is transmitted as an analog square wave voltage and is as just such susceptible to the impacts of noise, e.g. RF and EMI, as any other analog signal from a music source (e.g. phono stage, tape deck, disc player, etc., etc.)

2) Digital sources, while the data is in a "fully digital" domain (i.e., there not yet been an D/A conversion) is also particularly susceptible to ground plane noise, common mode noise, clock phase noise, and jitter.

3) Digital sources and "data in the fully digital domain" are also particularly susceptible to high-source impedance leakage current. This leakage current is very hard to detect and test for, and requires bespoke test equipment. It was only discovered in Q4, 2017. The problem with high-source impedance leakage current is that has a significant impact on clock phase noise, which is audible.

The bottom line here is that virtually everything in the digital streaming domain e.g. NAS, fiber media convertors, Ethernet switches, routers, music servers, and their power supplies and cables have an impact on the audio quality of playback from a digital streaming "front end". This includes USB cables, copper Ethernet cables, and the power supplies for these devices and their AC power cords.

Other sources of problems are switch-mode power supplies, the cheap-assed clocks in "consumer-grade" digital devices (e.g. router, switches, and FMCs, etc), and Ethernet cables.

Optical fiber has a big advantage over copper Ethernet for longer runs as it will not pass high-source impedance leakage current. More on the next post.

More later where I will provide some references for review and component and cable recommendations.

Meantime, please read this white paper by John Swenson: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/06...f?v=1583429386

**mep** · April 10, 2020, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

As with many discussions around this topic (digital content streaming), there is conflicting info here.

I've spent the last year researching, testing and implementing a robust "streaming" digital front end. By streaming I'm referring to digital music files resident on a hard drive attached to a music server or content provided via a streaming service, e.g. Qobuz, Tidal, etc.

The result and attendant conclusions I've come to is: EVERYTHING matters and is audible.

1) It's not just 1s and 0s. The data is transmitted as an analog square wave voltage and is as just such susceptible to the impacts of noise, e.g. RF and EMI, as any other analog signal from a music source (e.g. phono stage, tape deck, disc player, etc., etc.)

2) Digital sources, while the data is in a "fully digital" domain (i.e., there not yet been an D/A conversion) is also particularly susceptible to ground plane noise, common mode noise, clock phase noise, and jitter.

3) Digital sources and "data in the fully digital domain" are also particularly susceptible to high-source impedance leakage current. This leakage current is very hard to detect and test for, and requires bespoke test equipment. It was only discovered in Q4, 2017. The problem with high-source impedance leakage current is that has a significant impact on clock phase noise, which is audible.

The bottom line here is that virtually everything in the digital streaming domain e.g. NAS, fiber media convertors, Ethernet switches, routers, music servers, and their power supplies and cables have an impact on the audio quality of playback from a digital streaming "front end". This includes USB cables, copper Ethernet cables, and the power supplies for these devices and their AC power cords.

Other sources of problems are switch-mode power supplies, the cheap-assed clocks in "consumer-grade" digital devices (e.g. router, switches, and FMCs, etc), and Ethernet cables.

Optical fiber has a big advantage over copper Ethernet for longer runs as it will not pass high-source impedance leakage current. More on the next post.

More later where I will provide some references for review and component and cable recommendations.

Meantime, please read this white paper by John Swenson: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/06...f?v=1583429386

Care to share the components that make up your system?

**Mike** · April 10, 2020, 06:38 PM

My two cents:

The best switch is NO SWITCH. And a CD/SACD playing the same album will still beat all this networking/streaming stuff all day long and let’s not talk vinyl. I’ve run these test many many times.

If you have a dedicated listening space and run a Cat6 (or better) cable from the router to that room, then you don’t need a switch.

Instead of all of these gizmo’s, run two runs from the router - one for your computer/home theater crap or whatever you need in the same room as your audio system and one for your audio.

We are really over complicating this situation. Information Technology IS MY BACKGROUND. 25 years.

Ethernet filters like the Gigafoil can help filter out noise on the line coming from the PSU of the router/other devices on the network. And if you want to convert Ethernet to Fiber, fine. I’ve done it. The sound is different, but better?

YMMV.

**Puma Cat** · April 10, 2020, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

My two cents:

The best switch is NO SWITCH. And a CD/SACD playing the same album will still beat all this networking/streaming stuff all day long and let’s not talk vinyl. I’ve run these test many many times.

If you have a dedicated listening space and run a Cat6 (or better) cable from the router to that room, then you don’t need a switch.

Instead of all of these gizmo’s, run two runs from the router - one for your computer/home theater crap or whatever you need in the same room as your audio system and one for your audio.

We are really over complicating this situation. Information Technology IS MY BACKGROUND. 25 years.

Ethernet filters like the Gigafoil can help filter out noise on the line coming from the PSU of the router/other devices on the network. And if you want to convert Ethernet to Fiber, fine. I’ve done it. The sound is different, but better?

YMMV.

Well, of course the best switch is no switch. Less components in any reproduction chain will improve overall performance. If we wanted to get "wild and crazy" we could all use batteries to power our components, too, and obviate the need for AC power distributors. But, that's not practical for many, and neither is not having the functionality and flexibility a switch provides.

The facts are that different customers have different needs and therefore, different requirements. And guess what? Every customers needs/requirements are as VALID as anyone else's requirements. Solution providers (i.e., dealers/retailer) don't get to dictate or mandate customer requirements, customers do. Its up to solution providers to provide QUALITY and VALUE by best meeting their customer needs. This is basic VOC 101 (Voice of the Customer).

For many customers, they prefer, want, and value the flexibility of a digital streaming front end. Personally, I have virtually no desire whatsoever to go back to flippin' CDs into a player when I can sit back and pull up content in Roon, from my 4TB music library or from Qobuz, as well as read the metadata that is available, or use Radio mode to discover new content. So, for some customers, like me, they may well require an Ethernet switch or fiber media convertors.

**Mike** · April 10, 2020, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

Well, of course the best switch is no switch. Less components in any reproduction chain will improve overall performance. If we wanted to get "wild and crazy" we could all use batteries to power our components, too, and obviate the need for AC power distributors. But, that's not practical for many, and neither is not having the functionality and flexibility a switch provides.

The facts are that different customers have different needs and therefore, different requirements. And guess what? Every customers needs/requirements are as VALID as anyone else's requirements. Solution providers don't get to dictate or mandate customer requirements, customers do. Its up to solution providers to provide QUALITY and VALUE by best meeting customer needs. This is basic VOC 101 (Voice of the Customer; I used teach and lead technical product design teams in VOC).

For many customers that have the needs/requirements for a digital streaming front end, in their particular applications and systems, they require an Ethernet switch. Some require fiber media convetors as well.

When people are buying these items who don’t need them, that’s the problem. I have heard from so many customers with a single run from their router to their listening room and they are all in a big flap about these audiophile switches they keep hearing about. I have to keep telling them: the best switch is no switch!! That’s the little tidbit of information all these part-time experts leave out.

NONE mention: if you don’t need a switch, don’t use one and NONE mention the comparison vs the actual CD using the same DAC and
NONE mention simply running two lines from the router.

If in a worse case scenario, you can’t make another Ethernet run, then a switch is required. I would recommend the QNAP, this model or similar: https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/qsw-1208-8c if they want a high end quality spec, quality built switch.

I’m not a fan of this forum, but in this case they are bang on the money, and they have done many similar reviews of “audiophile switches”:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-switch.12360/

At the end of the day, in many cases, this stuff gets many people lost in a quagmire of confusion. Less is more.

Again, if people are hearing big differences with switches, that’s fantastic. All the power to them. My point is simple: I need to be sure to communicate that no switch is the best switch and offer an option of running two lines from the router. That’s all I’m saying.

Again, YMMV.

**Puma Cat** · April 10, 2020, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Vincent Kars

Its performance is measured here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-switch.12360/

Don't get me started on those guys. They've never even conducted a statistically valid MSA.

**Mike** · April 10, 2020, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

Don't get me started on those guys. They've never even conducted a statistically valid MSA.

LOL.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Puma Cat** · April 10, 2020, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

When people are buying these items who don’t need them, that’s the problem. I have heard from so many customers with a single run from their router to their listening room and they are all in a big flap about these audiophile switches they keep hearing about. I have to keep telling them: the best switch is no switch!! That’s the little tidbit of information all these part-time experts leave out.

NONE mention: if you don’t need a switch, don’t use one and NONE mention the comparison vs the actual CD using the same DAC and
NONE mention simply running two lines from the router.

If in a worse case scenario, you can’t make another Ethernet run, then a switch is required. I would recommend the QNAP, this model or similar: https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/qsw-1208-8c if they want a high end quality spec, quality built switch.

I’m not a fan of this forum, but in this case they are bang on the money, and they have done many similar reviews of “audiophile switches”:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-switch.12360/

At the end of the day, in many cases, this stuff gets many people lost in a quagmire of confusion. Less is more.

Again, if people are hearing big differences with switches, that’s fantastic. All the power to them. My point is simple: I need to be sure to communicate that no switch is the best switch and offer an option of running two lines from the router. That’s all I’m saying.

Again, YMMV.

The problem with the QNAP switch is high-source impedance leakage current causing phase noise, particularly if it is being powered with a SMPS adapter.It also has cheap clocks, and noisy PHYs and flip-flops. For $90 more, one can buy the Uptone EtherREGEN that was designed by a professional Ethernet-systems engineer to circumvent the problems that the "IT industry" switches have.

The problem with the Audioscience review guys is they don't even know what high-source impedance leakage current is, the impact it has on phase noise, let alone how to measure its impact.

**Puma Cat** · April 10, 2020, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by SoundRebels

One of the best dedicated for audio switch - Silent Angel Bonn N8

On market You can find licensed version of Bonn8 interiors - Omnia SW-8 produced by NuPrime (aluminum chassis and low noise power supply).

Yes, that's a good Ethernet switch; its not quite as expensive but also not quite as good as the Uptone Audio EtherREGEN, but it is better than an IT-industry switch. If you live in the EU, it's a good choice if its too much hassle to purchase the Uptone Audio EtherREGEN. Just be sure to use a good clean linear power supply with it instead of a switch-mode power supply.

**Mike** · April 10, 2020, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

The problem with the QNAP switch is high-source impedance leakage current causing phase noise, particularly if it is being powered with a SMPS adapter.It also has cheap clocks, and noisy PHYs and flip-flops. For $90 more, one can buy the Uptone EtherREGEN that was designed by a professional Ethernet-systems engineer to circumvent the problems that the "IT industry" switches have.

The problem with the Audioscience review guys is they don't even know what high-source impedance leakage current is, the impact it has on phase noise, let alone how to measure its impact.

If running another run from router is not an option and you need a switch, then someone would also want a better PSU for the Uptone.

I guess you saw this (I know we are not fans), but...

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-review.10232/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Willco** · April 10, 2020, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

The problem with the QNAP switch is high-source impedance leakage current causing phase noise, particularly if it is being powered with a SMPS adapter.It also has cheap clocks, and noisy PHYs and flip-flops. For $90 more, one can buy the Uptone EtherREGEN that was designed by a professional Ethernet-systems engineer to circumvent the problems that the "IT industry" switches have.

The problem with the Audioscience review guys is they don't even know what high-source impedance leakage current is, the impact it has on phase noise, let alone how to measure its impact.

I do think they (ASR) make a compelling argument that the place to measure the impact, or not, of an audiophile switch is at the DAC output. But then the argument comes down to-- are they measuring the right things at the DAC output? I'm not convinced yet on either side of this argument.

**Willco** · April 11, 2020, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

My two cents:

The best switch is NO SWITCH. And a CD/SACD playing the same album will still beat all this networking/streaming stuff all day long and let’s not talk vinyl. I’ve run these test many many times.

YMMV.

The creators of the audiophile switches will argue that their switch is better than no switch because it filters noise and other digital gremlins that are there independent of a switch.

On whether cd's playing the same album will be better than streaming: I don't have a cd player, so I haven't done direct comparison. But I have read others say that a highly optimized streaming set up (hard drive and Qobuz/Tidal) will equal or better cd playback. (I believe Mike Lavigne came to that conclusion? Hopefully I have that right!)

**Mike** · April 11, 2020, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by Willco

The creators of the audiophile switches will argue that their switch is better than no switch because it filters noise and other digital gremlins that are there independent of a switch.

On whether cd's playing the same album will be better than streaming: I don't have a cd player, so I haven't done direct comparison. But I have read others say that a highly optimized streaming set up (hard drive and Qobuz/Tidal) will equal or better cd playback. (I believe Mike Lavigne came to that conclusion? Hopefully I have that right!)

That last part is wishful thinking, if we are comparing apples to apples. It’s frankly not close. I’ve done numerous comparisons. The CD vs Tidal/QoBuz using the same DAC, was not close.

**UltraFast69** · April 11, 2020, 08:31 AM

My efforts with switches, power supplies and grounding resulted in a sound second to none, the die hard analog guys were one over, it was clearly evident to them.

I’m am with Mike relative to less is more but in my case it was opposite.

Before my weekend painting efforts I am about to move all my digital over to a new circuit on a new sub panel we put in (thanks KingRex, more on that later) and see if better circuit cabling, a shortened run, and removing the AQ Vox SE switch that is chassis grounded will improve sound quality - I think it will or I wouldn’t try doing it.

Note: Everything is well cabled with Linear Power Supplies, ethernet cables, and isolation and created a digital front end thread on here somewhere.

Currently:

Modem > AQ Diamond > AQVox SE > Belkin 45’ > etherREGEN > AQ Diamond > Gigafoil > AQ Diamond > Aurender

Proposed:

Running coaxial in place of Belkin to move closer to Audio Room.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

**Mike** · April 11, 2020, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by UltraFast69

My efforts with switches, power supplies and grounding resulted in a sound second to none, the die hard analog guys were one over, it was clearly evident to them.

I’m am with Mike relative to less is more but in my case it was opposite.

Before my weekend painting efforts I am about to move all my digital over to a new circuit on a new sub panel we put in (thanks KingRex, more on that later) and see if better circuit cabling, a shortened run, and removing the AQ Vox SE switch that is chassis grounded will improve sound quality - I think it will or I wouldn’t try doing it.

Note: Everything is well cabled with Linear Power Supplies, ethernet cables, and isolation and created a digital front end thread on here somewhere.

Currently:

Modem > AQ Diamond > AQVox SE > Belkin 45’ > etherREGEN > AQ Diamond > Gigafoil > AQ Diamond > Aurender

Proposed:

Running coaxial in place of Belkin to move closer to Audio Room.

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Interesting. Would you then have your modem close/in your listening room?

One other question: have you tried an Aurender ACS10? I find the dedicated network filter in the ACS10 to be excellent. Then you plug your N10 into the dedicated filter on the ACS10 via Ethernet.

I removed my GigaFoil once I got the ACS10. AND, it certainly sounds better than my NAS.

**mep** · April 11, 2020, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

When people are buying these items who don’t need them, that’s the problem. I have heard from so many customers with a single run from their router to their listening room and they are all in a big flap about these audiophile switches they keep hearing about. I have to keep telling them: the best switch is no switch!! That’s the little tidbit of information all these part-time experts leave out.

NONE mention: if you don’t need a switch, don’t use one and NONE mention the comparison vs the actual CD using the same DAC and
NONE mention simply running two lines from the router.

If in a worse case scenario, you can’t make another Ethernet run, then a switch is required. I would recommend the QNAP, this model or similar: https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/qsw-1208-8c if they want a high end quality spec, quality built switch.

I’m not a fan of this forum, but in this case they are bang on the money, and they have done many similar reviews of “audiophile switches”:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-switch.12360/

At the end of the day, in many cases, this stuff gets many people lost in a quagmire of confusion. Less is more.

Again, if people are hearing big differences with switches, that’s fantastic. All the power to them. My point is simple: I need to be sure to communicate that no switch is the best switch and offer an option of running two lines from the router. That’s all I’m saying.

Again, YMMV.

I agree with you 100%. There is a reason I coined the phrase "digital dingleberries" to describe all of the crap people install in their digital rigs that are not necessary in order to playback/stream digital music. There are lots of imaginary problems floating around out there in the digital world (and analog too in order to be fair) and twice as many companies making "solutions" for the pretend problems. However, there is a real need to cater to the corner of the audiophile market where people have run out of things to buy to "improve" their systems and this was and is the foundation for solutions in search of problems.

**CPP** · April 11, 2020, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Willco

The creators of the audiophile switches will argue that their switch is better than no switch because it filters noise and other digital gremlins that are there independent of a switch.

And they could sell you a used car with 300 k miles on it claiming its like brand new.

**BlueFox** · April 11, 2020, 10:03 AM

This thread validates keeping the hard drive directly attached to the Lumin and not use the network for music.

**Mike** · April 11, 2020, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by BlueFox

This thread validates keeping the hard drive directly attached to the Lumin and not use the network for music.

That leaves out streaming though. That being said, streaming (Tidal, etc.) is like the buffet at The Golden Corral. Plenty to eat, but I wouldn’t call it good. Your ripped CD’s will sound better and a CD playing through the same DAC, better yet again. I would say:

CD = 10/10
Ripped CD = 8-9/10
Streaming = 7/10

**CPP** · April 11, 2020, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

That leaves out streaming though. That being said, streaming (Tidal, etc.) is like the buffet at The Golden Corral. Plenty to eat, but I wouldn’t call it good. Your ripped CD’s will sound better and a CD playing through the same DAC, better yet again. I would say:

CD = 10/10
Ripped CD = 8-9/10
Streaming = 7/10

I can agree with that

**W9TR** · April 11, 2020, 12:16 PM

Love or hate ASR as you like, this following quote from the Uptone review is technically correct.

“Perhaps the biggest issue with claims of audio improvement is that your DAC is so far removed from Ethernet that little you can do upstream can impact it. Ethernet has a clock but that is used for communication on the wire. Once a packet (chunk) of data arrives, it is put in memory in the operating system. At that point, it no longer has any timing information much less a clock. It is the responsibility of the application to associate timing with it. And such software notion either works, or doesn't. If it doesn't your music will stop or drop out. None of that timing has any relationship whatsoever with the clock that the DAC eventually uses to play data sent to it. It is the audio application together with the DAC (and or Operating System) which determine timing.”

What really matters is keeping any noise away from your ultra-quiet analog electronics. Lots of ways to do that in renderers, streamers or add-ons. If you use Isochronous Asynchronous USB the only clock that matters is the one in your DAC. If you are using S/PDIF or AES/EBU then the source clock jitter does matter, although many DAC designers have optimized the input circuitry to make this a second level issue. My streamer is battery operated but does use WiFi, so i’ve focused on reducing transmit power to a bare minimum and making the 5 GHz path very high impedance with ferrite chokes.

**Mike** · April 11, 2020, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by W9TR

Love or hate ASR as you like, this following quote from the Uptone review is technically correct.

“Perhaps the biggest issue with claims of audio improvement is that your DAC is so far removed from Ethernet that little you can do upstream can impact it. Ethernet has a clock but that is used for communication on the wire. Once a packet (chunk) of data arrives, it is put in memory in the operating system. At that point, it no longer has any timing information much less a clock. It is the responsibility of the application to associate timing with it. And such software notion either works, or doesn't. If it doesn't your music will stop or drop out. None of that timing has any relationship whatsoever with the clock that the DAC eventually uses to play data sent to it. It is the audio application together with the DAC (and or Operating System) which determine timing.”

What really matters is keeping any noise away from your ultra-quiet analog electronics. Lots of ways to do that in renderers, streamers or add-ons. If you use Isochronous Asynchronous USB the only clock that matters is the one in your DAC. If you are using S/PDIF or AES/EBU then the source clock jitter does matter, although many DAC designers have optimized the input circuitry to make this a second level issue. My streamer is battery operated but does use WiFi, so i’ve focused on reducing transmit power to a bare minimum and making the 5 GHz path very high impedance with ferrite chokes.

Makes sense. That’s why I love my Aurender ACS10 + W20SE. No BS. Loads of cache memory on the W20SE. Ethernet filtering on the ACS10. And ACS10 for most of my albums sounds better than my NAS. Move my favorites to the SSD of the W20SE and bingo.

Streaming for when I’m in the mood for a buffet of new music. But if the album is good, like that classical album I was talking about the other night, I will buy it.

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**Puma Cat** · April 11, 2020, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Willco

The creators of the audiophile switches will argue that their switch is better than no switch because it filters noise and other digital gremlins that are there independent of a switch.

On whether cd's playing the same album will be better than streaming: I don't have a cd player, so I haven't done direct comparison. But I have read others say that a highly optimized streaming set up (hard drive and Qobuz/Tidal) will equal or better cd playback. (I believe Mike Lavigne came to that conclusion? Hopefully I have that right!)

I don't know that the manufacturers of audiophile-grade switches (or FMCs) are saying that they are better than "no device". I'm in agreement with Mike that the fewer (or zero) devices in a reproduction chain are better than more devices (for the most part, in most situations).

But some folks, including me, require the functionality of a switch or FMC. For our applications, some of the new products devleoped specifically for audio use provide audible improvements over generic products sourced from the IT/networking product manufacturers. One of the reasons is that timing matters when using these devices for audio streaming, and it does not for the vast majority of networking or computing applications.

**Puma Cat** · April 11, 2020, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Interesting. Would you then have your modem close/in your listening room?

One other question: have you tried an Aurender ACS10? I find the dedicated network filter in the ACS10 to be excellent. Then you plug your N10 into the dedicated filter on the ACS10 via Ethernet.

I removed my GigaFoil once I got the ACS10. AND, it certainly sounds better than my NAS.

Mike,

What is an Aurender ACS10?

Thanks.

**Mike** · April 11, 2020, 01:32 PM

https://aurender.com/acs10/

“The Aurender ACS10 is a device designed to reduce reliance upon the computer and other IT products to support your digital audio system.”

You can read about all it’s features on the link above. 2x Isolated LAN ports, linear PSU, etc.

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Thread: Network switch, FMC, cable upgrades worthwhile when router can't be co-located?