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  1. #51
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    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Quote Originally Posted by astrotoy View Post

    Are Three Blind Mice and ECM labels considered jazz - and if so what genres?

    Larry,

    Music from the Three Blind Mice (TBM) label is some of the best Japanese Jazz available.
    In January, Chris Connaker discovered the Three Blind Mice Supreme Collection which we discussed here.

    After somehow managing to get his hands on the entire collection he posted this article on AS.
    https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-...of-music-r880/

    Which albums do you have in your collection? They are valued very highly in Asia.

    Regards



    .
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  2. #52
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    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Quote Originally Posted by astrotoy View Post
    I didn't see either Miles Davis or John Coltrane mentioned in the different jazz classifications - are they generally classified in a particular jazz genre?
    Larry,

    Miles Davis and John Coltrane were responsible for bringing Modal Jazz to the forefront in '59 and the early 60s.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_jazz

    George Russell is considered the pioneer of Modal Jazz.
    Bill Evans who played with George Russell was another major influence.

    Miles Davis used Modal Jazz framework in "Kind of Blue" which Coltrane was a part of.
    But it was Coltrane who did a lot more in stretching the limits of Modal Jazz with his quartet.

    Regards



    .
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  3. #53

    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil View Post
    Larry,

    Music from the Three Blind Mice (TBM) label is some of the best Japanese Jazz available.
    In January, Chris Connaker discovered the Three Blind Mice Supreme Collection which we discussed here.

    After somehow managing to get his hands on the entire collection he posted this article on AS.
    https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-...of-music-r880/

    Which albums do you have in your collection? They are valued very highly in Asia.

    Regards



    .
    I have four TBM Titles. They are all safety master tapes (15ips 2 track).

    The Big Four George Kawaguchi
    Remember Martha Miyake
    North Plain Eiji Nakayama
    Ako's Dream Isao Suzuki

    They were part of a very large (200 reel) safety master collection I bought a few years ago. More jazz than classical or rock/pop. Lots of famous titles, many in 1/2". The TBM and ECM titles were the ones that I had no knowledge of, except as audiophile titles.

    Larry
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  4. #54
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    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Quote Originally Posted by astrotoy View Post
    I have four TBM Titles. They are all safety master tapes (15ips 2 track).

    The Big Four George Kawaguchi
    Remember Martha Miyake
    North Plain Eiji Nakayama
    Ako's Dream Isao Suzuki

    They were part of a very large (200 reel) safety master collection I bought a few years ago. More jazz than classical or rock/pop. Lots of famous titles, many in 1/2". The TBM and ECM titles were the ones that I had no knowledge of, except as audiophile titles.

    Larry

    "The Big 4" and "Ako's Dream" are in the Supreme Collection and well regarded.
    The other two I am not so familiar with but are probably quite well known.

    It's hard enough to get regular CDs of these albums.
    The fact that you have safety masters is in another stratosphere altogether.

    Regards



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  5. #55
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    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Quote Originally Posted by astrotoy View Post

    Finally, are Muddy Waters and Albert King considered jazz or something else (I have them listed as Pop/Rock in my catalogue of albums).

    Not sure if you are still looking for this info:

    Muddy Waters and Albert King are Blues greats
    Muddy Water is considered the father of Chicago Blues


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  6. #56

    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil View Post
    Larry,

    Miles Davis and John Coltrane were responsible for bringing Modal Jazz to the forefront in '59 and the early 60s.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_jazz

    George Russell is considered the pioneer of Modal Jazz.
    Bill Evans who played with George Russell was another major influence.

    Miles Davis used Modal Jazz framework in "Kind of Blue" which Coltrane was a part of.
    But it was Coltrane who did a lot more in stretching the limits of Modal Jazz with his quartet.

    Regards



    .

    Thanks. The safety masters have a heavy concentration of Miles Davis, almost all 1/2" tapes, and a fair number of John Coltrane. Here is a list of the Miles Davis tape titles - all are 1/2" safety masters:

    Cookin' (mono)
    Relaxin' (mono)
    Bitches Brew
    Four and More
    Kind of Blue + Alt Take and Extras
    Miles Smiles
    Milestones
    Olympia:Coltrane and Stitt
    On the Corner
    Round Midnight

    Davis appears to exhibit a wide range of styles. Some are quite attractive to me, others are very difficult. Similar comments to my experiences with Coltrane. Our fearless leader Chris visited a couple of years ago and chose (IIRC) his favorite album to play - Relaxin'.

    Here are my Coltrane safety masters- two are 1/2". I also have John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman which I think is wonderful - just a tape not a safety master.
    A Love Supreme
    Blue Train
    Settin' the Pace
    Soultrane
    The Avant-Garde

    Here are my Bill Evans safety masters:
    Intermodulation
    At Shelly's Manne-Hole
    Sunday at the Village Vanguard (also have the Tape Project Waltz for Debby)

    I find Bill Evans' albums much more accessible than much of Davis and Coltrane.

    Thanks, Larry
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  7. #57
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    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Quote Originally Posted by astrotoy View Post
    Thanks. The safety masters have a heavy concentration of Miles Davis, almost all 1/2" tapes, and a fair number of John Coltrane. Here is a list of the Miles Davis tape titles - all are 1/2" safety masters:

    Cookin' (mono)
    Relaxin' (mono)
    Bitches Brew
    Four and More
    Kind of Blue + Alt Take and Extras
    Miles Smiles
    Milestones
    Olympia:Coltrane and Stitt
    On the Corner
    Round Midnight

    Davis appears to exhibit a wide range of styles. Some are quite attractive to me, others are very difficult. Similar comments to my experiences with Coltrane. Our fearless leader Chris visited a couple of years ago and chose (IIRC) his favorite album to play - Relaxin'.
    Miles Davis music changed drastically over the years in an effort to stay current over his long career.
    Do consider watching the Netflix documentary "Miles Davis: The Birth of the Cool" to get an idea.
    https://www.netflix.com/watch/80227122?source=35

    Miles' influence on Coltrane and other musicians is nicely shown as well in the movie.

    "Cookin" and "Relaxin" are from Miles Davis' Hard Bop stage when he was with Prestige/Blue Note.
    Here is the Miles Davis discography to give you a timeline of the albums if you haven't looked it up already.

    I think it goes without saying that anything to do with Miles is eminently collectible.
    I have no doubt that your albums (specially "Kind of Blue") will be highly sought after by jazz enthusiasts.


    Regards



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  8. #58
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    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Quote Originally Posted by astrotoy View Post

    Here are my Coltrane safety masters- two are 1/2". I also have John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman which I think is wonderful - just a tape not a safety master.
    A Love Supreme
    Blue Train
    Settin' the Pace
    Soultrane
    The Avant-Garde

    Coltrane might just be the most influential of all jazz musicians ever.
    He was instrumental in stretching the genre into what is now called Modal jazz, Free jazz and Avant-garde jazz.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Coltrane

    For the purposes of this thread, arranging your albums per release date and jazz type

    Blue Train (January 1958, Hard bop)

    Soultrane (October 1958, Hard bop)

    Settin the Pace (December 1961, Hard bop)

    A Love Supreme (January 1965, Free jazz, Modal jazz, Avant-garde jazz, Post bop)

    The Avante-Garde (1966, Free jazz, Avant-garde jazz)

    Information on each album is available in the links but the standout album is "A Love Supreme".
    Once again these are all fantastic albums and highly sought after in the jazz world.

    Again for context do consider watching "Chasing Trane: The John Coltrane Documentary" on Netflix
    https://www.netflix.com/watch/80147403?source=35

    Regards


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  9. #59
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    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    This video came up on my Youtube feed today.
    Thought it would be interesting for @astrotoy (if you have seen it already)





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  10. #60

    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil View Post
    This video came up on my Youtube feed today.
    Thought it would be interesting for @astrotoy (if you have seen it already)

    .
    Great stuff, Nikhil! I don’t read or write music, but still found the video very entertaining and informative. Well worth the time.
    Anthony
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  11. #61

    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil View Post
    This video came up on my Youtube feed today.
    Thought it would be interesting for @astrotoy (if you have seen it already)

    .
    Great stuff, Nikhil! I don’t read or write music, but still found the video very entertaining and informative. Well worth the time.
    Anthony
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  12. #62

    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil View Post
    Coltrane might just be the most influential of all jazz musicians ever.
    He was instrumental in stretching the genre into what is now called Modal jazz, Free jazz and Avant-garde jazz.
    John Coltrane - Wikipedia

    For the purposes of this thread, arranging your albums per release date and jazz type

    Blue Train (January 1958, Hard bop)

    Soultrane (October 1958, Hard bop)

    Settin the Pace (December 1961, Hard bop)

    A Love Supreme (January 1965, Free jazz, Modal jazz, Avant-garde jazz, Post bop)

    The Avante-Garde (1966, Free jazz, Avant-garde jazz)

    Information on each album is available in the links but the standout album is "A Love Supreme".
    Once again these are all fantastic albums and highly sought after in the jazz world.

    Again for context do consider watching "Chasing Trane: The John Coltrane Documentary" on Netflix
    https://www.netflix.com/watch/80147403?source=35

    Regards


    .
    I agree but would still say one of the most and it is a very nice list. I only miss my personal favorite Crescent

  13. #63

    Styles of Jazz Music

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil View Post
    This video came up on my Youtube feed today.
    Thought it would be interesting for @astrotoy (if you have seen it already)





    .
    Thanks for sharing, Nikhil. I play a bit of Jazz guitar, but my grasp of harmonies and music theory is rather limited. Yet, I also liked her story.

    What I found fascinating, was how someone who has probably studied the better part of two decades classical piano, found herself so unprepared for bebop styles and harmonics. While getting the gist of syncopy, rhythm, and harmonics, I think the reason why she was struggling is that she approached jazz with the same school book rigor and attitude, as when following a classical piece to the note. Get a score, follow the score, use this mechanism, apply that structure. Therefore the end-result sounded like classical music, the flow was Chopin with odd harmonics, and it neither made sense from a classical nor jazz perspective. It was not modern either like Bartók or something.

    Her effort was very headstrong, trying to reason everything. And hence she a bit neglected rhythm, harmonic flow, and feeling the music, which make jazz so interesting. Even though there’s a significant amount of understanding of music theory required to play good jazz, that’s not everything and you can’t just rationally deduct it as she tried. I felt the effort yielded something that sounded similar to what a chauffeur might look like on the race track Styles of Jazz Music.

    But it was very interesting and entertaining to watch, especially as she was very nice and humble, and kind of probably feeling she’s not deserving the cigar yet. And I could of course myself not do a fraction of any of it.

    If you like her effort and the idea to blend jazz and classical music, listen to this Chick Corea album. Chick starts with classical pieces and the jazzes them up really masterfully.
    IMG_4613.jpg


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  14. #64

    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    It's funny; I can appreciate Jazz musicians playing classical but I have yet to hear a classical musician playing jazz in a way that moves me.

  15. #65

    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    I think the reason might be, that pretty much everyone starts classical.


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  16. #66
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    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Quote Originally Posted by A.S. View Post
    It's funny; I can appreciate Jazz musicians playing classical but I have yet to hear a classical musician playing jazz in a way that moves me.
    IME the reason for this is timing; ie: The ability to swing with ones playing. Classical musicians are taught not to and jazz musicians always do.

    Frank Sinatra's timing of words and phrases is IMO the same thing as swinging with an instrument.

    From Wikipedia:
    The term swing, as well as swung note(s) and swung rhythm, is also used more specifically to refer to a technique (most commonly associated with jazz but also used in other genres) that involves alternately lengthening and shortening the first and second consecutive notes in the two part pulse-divisions in a beat.
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  17. #67
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    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Big fan of her jazz singing style ...
    ~ Bob ~
    "And it Stoned me to my Soul" Van Morrison
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  18. #68

    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuoppis View Post
    I think the reason might be, that pretty much everyone starts classical.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    You've got point there. I had thought about it like that.

  19. #69

    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Quote Originally Posted by A.S. View Post
    It's funny; I can appreciate Jazz musicians playing classical but I have yet to hear a classical musician playing jazz in a way that moves me.
    In addition to “swinging“, a very crucial part of jazz is improvisation. Classical musicians are not taught to improvise. They are trained to play what is shown on sheet music.

  20. #70

    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Thanks for the great video. It was very good to see how bebop takes the standard chord sequences and extends them beyond what the normal classical music progressions are. Part of my problem listening to much of jazz (Coltrane, Davis for example) is that I grew up having classical music played in my home on the piano and through the hi-fi. The tonalities, particularly, and the rhythms and structures, became imbedded in my musical language, like a child learns a language. And this was classical music from the baroque through the early 20th century, not the later post modern music that was being composed after WWII (when I was growing up). Also no Second Viennese School 12 tone music. Pop music was pretty easy, since the melodies and harmonies, etc. were almost all quite simple, and quite consonant, with straight forward chord progressions and rhythmic structures. Easy to sing.

    My introduction to Jazz was probably Brubeck and his Time Out album, which became a best seller when I was in high school. There was also swing, from Glenn Miller, which was a favorite of my parents. However, no Davis, Coltrane or Armstrong, Monk, Parker.

    For people who grew up to jazz, bebob, hard bop and the other genres, I think the tonalities and improvisational structures and rhythms and complex syncopations, became imbedded in them, making it part of their musical language. I remember reading that Beethoven was revolutionary as a composer during his time, and his most popular symphony during his life was his first symphony, which sounds most like Haydn and Mozart, the composers which were most familiar and popular with the audiences of that time. His most popular piece was his Septet, written in 1799, only a four years after Mozart's early death and while Haydn was still at his peak. Beethoven was only 29 when he wrote the piece and would have the great majority of his compositional career ahead of him.

    At this point, my exploration of jazz, which really began at the age of 71, five years ago, still tends to favor artists like the Modern Jazz Quartet, Cannonball Adderley, Bill Evans, Brubeck and Paul Desmond, and Ella Fitzgerald including her albums with Louis Armstrong. I have much more difficultly with Miles Davis, John Coltrane, and Thelonious Monk. I don't have albums by Charlie Parker.

    Larry
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  21. #71

    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Very nice write-up Larry, I like it. I think the connection can go even deeper, into how we hear or are used to hear.

    Our hearing is conditioned during our upbringing based on the sounds and languages we hear. The French language for example, is a phonetically limited language. That means the tonal range typically used when speaking, is slightly limited compared to a number of other languages. That’s the reason why French native speakers often struggle with vocalizing other languages, because they’re used to hear and communicate in a different tonal range. As a result their hearing is not conditioned to deal with the wider range of other languages, and their hearing not used to dealing with it. However, in turn their hearing is usually better in the range of the French language. As it happens, that range is similar to the Oboe’s tonal range. Due to this coincidental match, an above average share of the world’s best Oboe players are French native speakers.


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  22. #72

    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Thanks. The comments on the French language and oboes is very interesting. I know the nasality of the French language also makes it a difficult language for an adult to learn as a second language, and also makes it very easy for a French speaking native to immediately know that a person is not French. I have heard that violins made in France have a special tone quality also.

    Larry
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  23. #73
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    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    The jazz we came from and the jazz we're going to next is like a sunset.
    And that sunset could be from the 20s, the 30s, the 40s, ... and all the way up to 2021 and beyond.
    Between hundred years what we discover in jazz made our style in jazz.
    My jazz instruments are the piano, the sax, the trumpet, the trombone, the clarinet, the acoustic bass, the drums, the jazz guitar, the jazz vocals.

    I am not defined in jazz; I like Tango jazz, Opera jazz, Classic jazz, Progressive jazz, Velvet jazz, Improvised jazz, Super Smooth jazz, Spanish Jazz, Cuban jazz, African jazz, and Coltrane jazz.
    ~ Bob ~
    "And it Stoned me to my Soul" Van Morrison
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    Snoopy as the Red Baron attack
    Avatar = The Alan Parsons Project - Eye in the Sky (1982 - orbiting)

  24. #74
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
    Posts
    9,413

    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    In the now ...



    And it's hot, very hot here today...over 40° C.
    Need some special jazz to cool off.
    ~ Bob ~
    "And it Stoned me to my Soul" Van Morrison
    ClickAudiophile Audition
    Snoopy as the Red Baron attack
    Avatar = The Alan Parsons Project - Eye in the Sky (1982 - orbiting)

  25. #75
    Junior Member
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    Oct 2014
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    Combat Zone of Philadelphia PA
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    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    I'm wondering how many know that the word Jazz actually came from a Black term "jass". As in don't jass up the music. It was first used when referring to church and Gospel music. At that time it was not a complimentary term.

    I've been listening to some old Charlie Christian work. What he did with Benny Goodman set the bar for every jazz guitarist that's come after him.
    Last edited by JoeESP9; June 28, 2021 at 08:39 AM. Reason: more stuff to say
    2Ch: Sumiko Blackbird, Rega RB300 (modified), VPI HW-19 (modified), ARC SP-9MKIII, DBX 223SX, Dyna MKIII (radically modified), Magnepan 1.7, Dual 12" DIY TL subs, 2 bridged Crown XLS-402's, 14" HP laptop/2GB USB HDD, Emotiva XDA-2

  26. #76

    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    And here is the scandinavian style personified by

  27. #77
    Senior Member
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    Ormond Beach, Plantation Bay CC
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    Re: Styles of Jazz Music

    Quote Originally Posted by Wasatch View Post
    Nice. I'm a fusion guy.
    Same here as was JDandy (R.I.P) . When I visited Dan, at times we would just get out his guitars and play along. I miss that guy.
    2chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)

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Styles of Jazz Music

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