Thread: If.....

Need help here. My journey has a fork in the road. Do I need to go server or t/t? I'm sick & tired of the roller coaster of cd's etc, is vinyl as good as it gets & can i do it at around $10K for a t/t. Please help .....

Myles, all cd's basically,... but, if I went the t/t route it would be all vinyl from here on in & convert to files for easy off axis listening & also top up on very favourite/well mastered well recorded albums.

Mike, I did try the Lumin in my system & didn't think it had more to offer that my macbookpro ssd oriented digital playback with the MA-1 Meitner. Will a VPI Classic through the phono on the 520 Soulution be a better thing do you think,or just another slant. Granted of course we are talking good mastering/recording on LP's, CD's.

Originally Posted by Mike

Having owned the MA-1, I can't say I agree at all.

If you have a vinyl itch, then you need to scratch it. Vinyl is wonderful, but it's a labor of love. From cleaning records, to investing in vinyl (are you going to be like my friend who wants album X and bitches repeatedly that it costs $70?), to initial table setup, rechecking setup occasionally, cleaning the stylus, getting up to flip the album every 2 songs (45 RPM presses), etc., etc.

One piece of the chain, is the dac Mike, preamp, cables etc......everything makes a difference ..... Once upon a time between my brothers & sisters & I we had close to 500 lps, all gone now.No elusions here about the chair time, just wondered if it is as good as the romanticists make it out to be with technology and all today. Been a long time since i spun a platter. Every now & then I get the hankering to go back but convince myself the difference really isn't that great. We have some wonderful & very knowledgeable/well listened members here that know that with the right system it maybe, just wanted to ask in case I am missing something that wasn't there 10 years ago! I know dealers that tell me so, i don't trust them!

Well.... this is a polite pandora's box being opened up here . Agreed with everything that Mike said about the aggravation of analog which is immense and which only rises on a logarithmic progression the more obsessive you are about setup, Stylus Rake Angle, Azimuth and any other number of things out there . BUT - we're audiophiles right? We go through any number of irritating and annoying inconveniences for the sake of our passion simply because...we care about the music , we care about the final output - the sound. And I'm sorry but no number of DSD/DXD downloads or the nth level of digital nirvana will persuade me that digital sounds as good as or better than analog. Maybe no longer night-and-day but this Forum is chock-full of audiophiles going to extraordinary lengths and expense to tweak the last bit of performance out of their systems . Well, the first and most obvious move if you are inclined towards vinyl or have a collection ...is to get yourself a decent vinyl rig. Don't want all the aggravation ? - get yourself a Rega RP-10 - it'll blow almost any digital rig I've heard out of the water from a sonic perspective. What the Hell ....my 2cents worth

I’ve found in the last 44 years or so of listening to music that some things sound better on CD and some sound better on vinyl. Now, for what I listen too, I’d say a bit over half sounds better on vinyl. I started out on vinyl, got out and came back again. My story is different from most here though in that back in the day when I was all vinyl I never had what I call a “real” turntable, so it left a false taste in my mouth. That said, for some reason I kept most of my vinyl when I went to CD, so I guess I had something in the back of my mind.
I got full force, back into vinyl only about 4 years ago when I picked up my first “real” turntable. I also did some reading and learned about vinyl. When I put that first record on it stunned me and I knew I wanted to get into vinyl again and was ready to commit to doing it right.

Mike and others are absolutely right in saying that it is a labor of love. You have to really want to do vinyl playback. There is tons more maintence and such than any other medium. Even though I wanted to be back into vinyl and commit with the best of intentions, it was not always easy along the road. I had to learn cartridge and turntable set up which was one thing I personally had a rough time with, but I wanted to do vinyl playback strongly enough that I wanted to learn. To this day, I struggle with it, but not really due to techniques as due to really poor eyes. (It’s different for everyone though). There are still things I don’t quite understand such as SRA, but mostly due to lack of experience with it and no need or way to do it on my tables. I use legacy turntables so I’m not dealing with unipivot arms and such. That means for some things like adjusting SRA, I could not do it if I wanted to because on the tables I use there is no way to do it. I just have to hope the manufacture got it close when I set up the rest of it.

All that may sound daunting, but the good news is that the rest of it is pretty easy, just a lot to consider. As Mike pointed out, there is the cleaning, storage, flipping sides, etc. However, it is my opinion that all that is not hard to learn. While most here may disagree with me, I’m also of the opinion that it does not have to cost a lot of money to get into vinyl, especially starting out. If I’m not mistaken, I believe that Michael Fremer is of similar opinion. I would also suggest digging into some articles, videos and such from him. (You Tube is your friend as is Google and Analog Planet).

You will need more than a TT to get into vinyl. You will need good storage, cleaning and maintenance items for both TT and records, etc. At any rate, you don’t have to start off with a $10,000 table, $1000 cartridge, etc. You can do what I did and go with a legacy (vintage) table for anywhere from $50 to $400 or so, if you like that sort of thing or jump straight into a nice $1200 table or something from ClearAudio or what have you. You could also start out with an entry level Project or Rega if you want and everything in between and beyond. Lots of ways to go. Also, if you have never set up a table before, please do what Michael Fremer suggests and don’t start out with a $1000 cartridge or something. Get a $30 or $40 cart. That way if you screw up and damage it you are only out $30. From there, you can step up to a slightly more expensive cartridge and keep working up the ladder if you like. (That is a good way to know how different carts and such behave). Mr. Fremer has also said, that you would be surprised how nice an inexpensive cartridge can sound on a properly set up table. (I heard him say that in a TT setup seminar he did that I caught on You Tube).

As for records costing $70, not always, they can cost that and much more, but they don’t have to. You can go used, but that requires more work and a bit more money because you will need some way to clean them good and learn about all that and eventually need an RCM. Then there is the labor involved and such. If you are going for lots of records, it can save you money and be worth it at the end of the day, but it’s a personal preference and commitment as well and requires lots of patience just as setting up a table does. So if it’s enough just dealing with setting up a table, you may not dig doing the used record route. (I personally find it fun and interesting, not to mention a big money saver, but that’s me and I don’t mind it).
You can go for new records which don’t always cost $70. Depending on what you want, many will cost between $30 and $70, sometimes $20 depending. However, you’ll still need to clean them. Yes, even new records should be cleaned before touching your table. If funds are tight you can go the extreme and set up a manual way using an old cheapo turntable, homebrew and purchased fluids and a modified mini shopvac like I started with. It was fine when I had 30 or 40 records, but started getting carpel tunnel at the 60 record point (now have 400+) because of the vacuum step mostly and that’s partly why I have a VPI machine today. You could start with a $200 Disc Dr or something when you only have a few records, but at some point you’ll want something like a VPI or Okki Nokki or even an AudioDesk or KLAudio unit depending on budget and number of records. It also depends on how fast you accumulate records. If you accumulate fast you may want to skip the cheaper cleaning set ups and jump straight to a VPI or above or what have you. (If you had 1000 records I would jump straight to one of full auto units like the KLAudio, etc. if it were me).

Just saying that you can start out in vinyl for well under $10k if you want, especially if you are not 100% sure. Once you are in and if you find you love it, you can then go as crazy as you like.
All this is just my opinion and personal experience and not in any way the word on the whole thing. Just offering another perspective.

~Eric

Here's the deal from my perspective:Even if you have zero LPs and you want to get into vinyl, I don't know if there has ever been a better time. I could argue there are far more choices of tables, arms, and cartridges at all price points and level of quality than at anytime in the history of audio. There is currently so many brand new LPs (both super high quality reissues and new vinyl) available in the market place that you would have to have very deep pockets to go and buy all that is available for sale that interests you. Record cleaners have never been better either which helps elevate the whole experience.

Playing LPs is more work than sitting your ass in your listening chair with your remote in your lap and fingering your way through your music collection without having to get up except to get another beer or drink and occasionally find the bathroom in order to take a hillbilly piss to get rid of the beer or drinks you have been imbibing. Therefore, you want to keep your digital source material and front-end for the times you don't feel like getting up and having the LP setup for when you really want to groove to the music. But if you already know you are lazy, don't bother with analog (and I'm not saying you are lazy because I have no idea. You just have to be honest with yourself).

I for one would not be happy if I only had one source to listen to. If all I had to listen to was PCM digital, I would have got out of this hobby long ago.

Thanks for the insights people & Eric, great post. I sense the undertones that are being applied to stop this going nuke & appreciate the thoughtfulness, sure don't want this to turn into a shitfight of one against another.
For me it's about if I did go for a table & wanted to get a very good one that wasn't uber expensive, would the $10k point be a good point to start with the table. I am already onto the cleaner & tools, also the demo part can be done. Would the VPI Classic Signature be a good thing for what I am asking as I know jack about t/t's.

The VPI Classic table would be a great place to start.

Originally Posted by sharkmouth

Thanks for the insights people & Eric, great post. I sense the undertones that are being applied to stop this going nuke & appreciate the thoughtfulness, sure don't want this to turn into a shitfight of one against another.
For me it's about if I did go for a table & wanted to get a very good one that wasn't uber expensive, would the $10k point be a good point to start with the table. I am already onto the cleaner & tools, also the demo part can be done. Would the VPI Classic Signature be a good thing for what I am asking as I know jack about t/t's.

I happen to have a great many CDs myself as well. For me it's about the music and while some of what I listen to sounds better on vinyl. I also have some that will never be on vinyl and probably would not sound that good considering the way the recording was done.

If you have everything else lined up and have $10k allocated solely for a table, that is more than a good starting point for anyone just getting into vinyl. I'd say though that perhaps it may be a good idea to look at tables across a price range including ones well under $10k. There are many great tables out there from $1200 to $10K. VPI is a great choice as are many others, such as ClearAudio, etc.
Here's an idea, hop on to Analog Planet and read Michael Fremer's Turntable reviews, good honest reviewer and looks at everything on a turntable. In fact, since you said you don't know jack about turntables and maybe a little less about the whole concept of vinyl than you like, if it were me, I'd start reading up on all the things needed. Turntables, record care, TT set-up (that's a big one), even record buying. Be sure to watch Michael Fremer's TT set up videos too. You'll find them on YouTube. Although he get's a little too deep for me, but only because my tables do not have a couple of the adjustments he goes through, it is still a good watch.

One other thing, the less you spend on the gear without going too far of course, the more left over for......guess......records! Michael Fremer always advises to have money left over for records. Playing vinyl is more about the music than the gear believe it or not. I know with so much to consider for vinyl playback that sounds counter-productive, but it's true none the less.

Originally Posted by mep

Here's the deal from my perspective:Even if you have zero LPs and you want to get into vinyl, I don't know if there has ever been a better time. I could argue there are far more choices of tables, arms, and cartridges at all price points and level of quality than at anytime in the history of audio. There is currently so many brand new LPs (both super high quality reissues and new vinyl) available in the market place that you would have to have very deep pockets to go and buy all that is available for sale that interests you. Record cleaners have never been better either which helps elevate the whole experience.

Playing LPs is more work than sitting your ass in your listening chair with your remote in your lap and fingering your way through your music collection without having to get up except to get another beer or drink and occasionally find the bathroom in order to take a hillbilly piss to get rid of the beer or drinks you have been imbibing. Therefore, you want to keep your digital source material and front-end for the times you don't feel like getting up and having the LP setup for when you really want to groove to the music. But if you already know you are lazy, don't bother with analog (and I'm not saying you are lazy because I have no idea. You just have to be honest with yourself).

I for one would not be happy if I only had one source to listen to. If all I had to listen to was PCM digital, I would have got out of this hobby long ago.

Yes. There were a lot of turntables back when vinyl was king and pretty much all there was, but believe it or not, not quite as many as there are today. Sure, they were less expensive back then, but not if you take into account the economy and wages of the time. It's the same today, but the difference is that there really are more choices and they cover the spectrum of budgets.

Oh gods, me too, if all there was were only MP3s or streaming or digital downloads, I would have no gear or music. I would not want it.
I find many CDs to sound sterile as well, but I'll give at least a credit point or two for the fact that at least they are still tactile and of course some credit for those CDs that were actually well done...there are a few I have. (I'm not a CD lightweight, I have about 950 counting a few digital vinyl conversions - redbook/lossless I've done for portability and just because).

Originally Posted by sharkmouth

Thanks for the insights people & Eric, great post. I sense the undertones that are being applied to stop this going nuke & appreciate the thoughtfulness, sure don't want this to turn into a shitfight of one against another.
For me it's about if I did go for a table & wanted to get a very good one that wasn't uber expensive, would the $10k point be a good point to start with the table. I am already onto the cleaner & tools, also the demo part can be done. Would the VPI Classic Signature be a good thing for what I am asking as I know jack about t/t's.

Kev,

$10K's actually a very reasonable budget for a table.The Soulution has a great phono stage , you should take advantage of it. Any number of choices out there , the VPI Classic 3 is one though I'm generally not a fan of their tables. The new Rega RP-10 is excellent , an uber-overachiever at it's price point & no fuss or muss on setup with their Apheta cartridge. Well supported Down Under too.

Bob thanks for that & thanks to everyone for their input. I need to demo & study....

Originally Posted by socfan12

Kev, like I said in your room thread, you and I are traveling on a similar paths. First tubes: I'm finally a buyer with Allnic. Vinyl vs. digital? Same fork in the road as you and I chose to invest in analog. Trying to figure out ways to pay for it all as others have said, it's quite an investment. Not just TT, but arm, cart, phono (which seems you have that covered already), and then accessories (RCM, etc). Luckily for me I have a local dealer who's really into vinyl and has some awesome analog rigs and will help with initial setup.

I will keep a digital front end, but I am definitely branching out to analog. Would be cool to see you do same. Good luck on your decision my friend.

welcome to the dark side, and I mean that literally. your friends will go dark on you, family - forget them. all that matters is prioritizing your obsession of tracking down every rare vinyl gem in existence and if its got great SQ all the better. Then there are the OCD-type rituals on the care and feeding of vinyl particularly cleaning, the type, way and method not to mention the fluids. we can go on and on in detail about every single aspect of just caring for records that can have a PROFOUND (audiophiliac hyperbole) affect on the sound. you have no idea what you're both getting yourselves into and I haven't even scratched the surface.

On a serious note, when you do make the transition you must recalibrate your ears because the difference between great analog and what you're used to will require you to scrub and extricate all aural memories of what you think music 'should' sound like. The synthetic recreation of the analog waveform [ahem: excruciating noise] you've been accustomed to, will instead be replaced by your new reference, live music itself. those are the new aural memories you'll create on your path to analog nirvana.

Kev and Allen,
As you decend into the vinyl vortex, one critical decision should be made to make your future enjoyment of vinyl so much better..... Figure out how to organize your collection BEFORE it is too big and it's too late
Ps - i've just spent over an hour looking for a joni mitchell lp that i'm sure i have..... Somewhere in this mess!

Originally Posted by socfan12

Rob, thanks, I'm really looking forward to it. I don't have a TT yet but I spend most of my time now doing as you say: searching for that rare vinyl gem for my collection. It's getting expensive! I still have some original LPs I purchased when I was young (Rumours, etc). Can't wait to hear how they sound vs. the new reissues.

look at it a different way, the best reissues are 30-50 bucks ea. or an average of around 40. divide that into ten grand and its only 250 records. if you aspire to 2000 recordings that's almost $90k. and its not just new vinyl but used, OOP collectible LPs that will easily set you back by the same amount.

today, if you were exclusively digital and were fluent in computer audio you'd never have to pay for it - your dollars will go m-u-c-h farther in audio if the music were free. that said, i know vinyl 'collectors' that almost NEVER pay more than 2,3 or 5 bucks a used record and if they can get it free they'll drive 500 miles for it (i have friend that does this). These guys abide by a unique code of ethics as if paying high prices for LPs is like paying for sex - never, not happening.

So the choice is yours but if i were a betting man, you're going to go for the good stuff so start saving your shekels now.

Originally Posted by Bobolaclune

Kev,

$10K's actually a very reasonable budget for a table.The Soulution has a great phono stage , you should take advantage of it. Any number of choices out there , the VPI Classic 3 is one though I'm generally not a fan of their tables. The new Rega RP-10 is excellent , an uber-overachiever at it's price point & no fuss or muss on setup with their Apheta cartridge. Well supported Down Under too.

Big +1 re your phono stage.


Maybe grab this on Audiogon:

=> CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION COMPACT TABLE w/ MAGNIFY TONEARM, DEALER DEMO, $6,500 WARRANTY, SAVE $3500!


Add this:

=> Lyra Delos NEW optional $1650 or NIB Clearaudio Talisman V2 $1350 or many other cartridge choices.


Your in the game with a great table, really great phono stage all for $7500 with a Warranty on the table (and I am pretty sure they will likely take less). The $2500 leftover will buy a few nice vinyls too.

Originally Posted by Steve

Rob...How can there be such a thing as free music? If you are listening to a free-to-air broadcast such as terrestrial or IP radio, it is still loaded with commercial advertising and has been compressed. Once it is lossy, it is compromised to a lower listening pleasure level. A streaming service cannot normally be archived. So if you are archiving music, how are you doing it for free? Is it that you are doing some sort of DAC-ADP DSP on material & what sort of material is it if it already cost your nothing?

Or is it that peer-to-peer is your thing? I suppose you have some ready access when torring into the deep internet...

P2P is not my thing but there are legal bittorrent sites on the web with plenty of lossless, hi-res and DSD files for the taking. i read somewhere something like 90% of the content distributed in china and russia was acquired this way for free. its probably happening under your nose - do you have a teenager about? My FLAC files were ripped from CD which i paid for one disc at a time.

I was thinking maybe a VPI Prime due out in November with a spiffy Transfiguration cartridge, not that i know jack about this stuff though, that would leave me 2k for vinyl out of the 10. This means my first table will be at the 5-6k wet spot & if things get tickety boo, well...... don't those Kronos give one the wood in the britches department!!!
Be damned with the digital, that's all I've been doing for the last 4 years, gotta say though, some of it is really good!

Originally Posted by puroagave

welcome to the dark side, and I mean that literally. your friends will go dark on you, family - forget them. all that matters is prioritizing your obsession of tracking down every rare vinyl gem in existence and if its got great SQ all the better. Then there are the OCD-type rituals on the care and feeding of vinyl particularly cleaning, the type, way and method not to mention the fluids. we can go on and on in detail about every single aspect of just caring for records that can have a PROFOUND (audiophiliac hyperbole) affect on the sound. you have no idea what you're both getting yourselves into and I haven't even scratched the surface.

On a serious note, when you do make the transition you must recalibrate your ears because the difference between great analog and what you're used to will require you to scrub and extricate all aural memories of what you think music 'should' sound like. The synthetic recreation of the analog waveform [ahem: excruciating noise] you've been accustomed to, will instead be replaced by your new reference, live music itself. those are the new aural memories you'll create on your path to analog nirvana.

Oh so true!

Originally Posted by tunes

Kev and Allen,
As you decend into the vinyl vortex, one critical decision should be made to make your future enjoyment of vinyl so much better..... Figure out how to organize your collection BEFORE it is too big and it's too late
Ps - i've just spent over an hour looking for a joni mitchell lp that i'm sure i have..... Somewhere in this mess!

Yes, absolutely!! Very good advice.

My collection at 400+/- is not anywhere near the size of anyone else's here, but I had to get a database to keep track. The thing that prompted me to do that was purchasing a few duplicates unintentionally. Of course, developing a touch of OCD because I listen to vinyl, I shortly discovered that I like working with my database, it's almost fun because it's very detailed.

Originally Posted by puroagave

look at it a different way, the best reissues are 30-50 bucks ea. or an average of around 40. divide that into ten grand and its only 250 records. if you aspire to 2000 recordings that's almost $90k. and its not just new vinyl but used, OOP collectible LPs that will easily set you back by the same amount.

today, if you were exclusively digital and were fluent in computer audio you'd never have to pay for it - your dollars will go m-u-c-h farther in audio if the music were free. that said, i know vinyl 'collectors' that almost NEVER pay more than 2,3 or 5 bucks a used record and if they can get it free they'll drive 500 miles for it (i have friend that does this). These guys abide by a unique code of ethics as if paying high prices for LPs is like paying for sex - never, not happening.

So the choice is yours but if i were a betting man, you're going to go for the good stuff so start saving your shekels now.

Hmm, I buy used always, but I'm not like you describe, I have my limits. I like trying to find the stuff I listen to on pressings from back in the day around the time they were first released. For me it's fun. (Not saying I have not run into those types, I have many times).
Then again, I'm not a collector. I purchase to listen and have in my little library, that's it. I am of the belief that records are for playing and nothing else. I could care less about rarity, collector value, etc.

"Free" music via computer, streaming, radio, etc. is no bargain in my mind. With radio it's hardly any music anyway, mostly ads. With Streaming or downloads it's compressed (lossy), so much that the life has been squeezed out of it and you lose lots of dynamics. Once you create a lossy file, whatever was lost in the process is not going to come back no matter what you do.
I'm not down on streaming, it has a place in my world just as CDs do and I do appreciate the access we have to music on the interwebs and such. I have a Spotify account and such myself, but I use it for casual listening or background and for research in my case, but I just don't get a level of pleasure in seriously listening to it like I do with a good clean vinyl record.
That being said I also do make a "lossless digital copy" of some of my vinyl records for archiving purposes and mobility. It may not sound quite as lively or what have you to my ears, but it's far better than nothing should something happen to the vinyl copy.

Just my opinion and personal quirks though.

Originally Posted by asindc

Which database do you use? I'm at about 300 (and counting) and I've been thinking of doing the same.

I use Music Collectorz. I really like it, but that's just me.
I was going to do my own spreadsheet or even set something up in MS Access, but Music Collectorz was easier and at the end of the day, less costly from a labor standpoint.