Thread: Belt Drive Tables Stink

As I observe VPI producing direct drives, rim drives, magnetic drives and such, it makes me wonder about belt drives. Surely there must be some disadvantages and drawbacks to belt drives. I myself gave up my Thorens 160 super, returning to my old Denon direct drive. To be honest it was more the bouncy sub-suspension that bothered me more than the drive type. I any case I am happy to have migrated back to direct drive. At my level of analog, I don’t find any depreciable difference. With a tone arm and cartridge upgrade, belt drive offered me zero improvement.

Could it be that the success of the Linn Sondek moved the whole industry into belt drives. Just maybe, they are nothing special. Are we “stuck in a grove ?”, pun intended.

Originally Posted by skernes

I have a vpi scout and a Technics SL-1200m5g.

My observation is that the VP is quieter (lower noise floor), which I attribute mostly to the belt drive. The Technics has better pitch stability, which I attribute to the direct drive with feedback.

My two cents is that both approaches have their merits; and it’s nice to see companies pushing forward with improvements in both technologies.


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Getting the power transformer out from under the platter (external power supply) will lower the noise floor of a Technics 1200 a bit, it did on mine anyway.

Thank you guys, for the vote of confidence. I certainly appreciate you considering my nebulous question, and observation. As I ponder this question, I realize that it can be many other design considerations that make a belt drive quieter than other drives. And who says a rubber belt cannot transfer motor vibrations to a rotating platter. When reviewing rumble and noise specs, direct drives more often come out on top. Even though I don’t see specs as a decisive factor. They are good to help in a decision, but the proof is in the listening.

I am not on a witch hunt here as I heard many excelent belt drive TT’s. As a matter of fact, most of the state of the art TT I have heard were belts. I just feel that long term momentum is taking over here. The momentum for moving coils is also building. Does this make moving magnets and moving irons bad ? It can certainly make them obsolete. It would be sad to see some really good technology taken away from us.

I think as the major DD innovators and manufacturers (Sony, Denon, JVC, Sanyo, etc.) either slowed down or abandoned the high-end TT field it became a matter of economics as to which drive technology survived as belt drives were more cost effective. Harry Weisfeld who was a big DD fan talked at length in multiple interviews over the years about the current prohibitive cost of producing DD motors for turntables. Technics has apparently decided that it has finally become feasible again to re-tool while the others have moved on.

I saw a youtube expose on the Shinola Runwell turntable. They were proud of the fact that their motor cost them $37 wholesale. Could you imagine being proud of a $37 motor in a $2,500 table ! What do other TT motors cost, $10 ? No wonder belts are popular. They reduce rumble on the cheap. If it was a direct drive, a $5,000 table might cost them $100 for a motor. This would certainly keep direct drive tables off the market.

I currently have a Vpi Prime and I like it, so I’m not entirely in agreement with the blanket statement in the thread title. Great results can be achieved in many ways and with many technologies, but it takes more than just one or the other mechanical motor implementation to make a great table. And I don’t think many on the thread think the Kronos tables are no good.

That said I have also been looking at the Brinkmann Bardo, which is a great DD turntable. I have heard it in comparison to other tables and it was the one which made me return to vinyl after many years. So, I would not be surprised if one beautiful day the Bardo would replace the Prime.


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The Bardo is the one "modern" TT that would cause me to think about changing.

I think the title of this thread is a little off center. So the OP has heard other belt drive tables like Kronos, or TechDas, AMG Viella and I guess they all stink. Like anything, it depends on the design, engineering and product quantity and with turntables, and cartridge selection and setup. I like VIP, their service is outstanding and the support is just a phone call away.

Originally Posted by Joseph R.

I saw a youtube expose on the Shinola Runwell turntable. They were proud of the fact that their motor cost them $37 wholesale. Could you imagine being proud of a $37 motor in a $2,500 table ! What do other TT motors cost, $10 ? No wonder belts are popular. They reduce rumble on the cheap. If it was a direct drive, a $5,000 table might cost them $100 for a motor. This would certainly keep direct drive tables off the market.

The direct drive motor in the VPI Vanquish costs $4000. Same motor used in the original Continuum. (Not sure about the current Continuum.)

With regards to the Shinola? How much should the motor cost given say a markup of 4? So if the turntable costs $2500, that leaves them with around $1200. Halve that for parts. That includes an table, arm and cartridge. Where does the main cost of building a turntable lie? Labor. Machining, assembly, testing, etc. Then throw in cost of R&D, materials, etc. Plus do you think the motor is used stock? Most tt manufacturers makes changes to the motors too.

I had a Pioneer PL-51 for around 25 years, direct drive. During that time I bought a new Technics linear tracking etc. transferred the same cart, I took the Technics back and continued with the Pioneer.

Now what replaced finally the Pioneer was a belt driven Rega P3, granted a better cart, but the sound of that rig was an ear opener for me. Until the P3 I didn't realize vinyl could sound so good.

I also realized most of the better turntables were belt driven. It must be that way for a reason. I know there's a big retro following for the Japanese direct drive, for me, I'll stick with my belt until someone shows me a DD that sounds better. Then I'll probably still stick with my belt unless the DD was affordable.

My question for Alex, how does the 1200 stack up to a similar priced Clearaudio or VPI?

I don't know much about Brinkman, nor did I know they were direct drive. I wonder how they deal with the vibration issues of a motor connected to the platter. Even if there is a series of wheels the noise would seem to transfer.

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Get one of each , i did ,

The Magic is everywhere, belt drive over comes DD advantages with big Mass , DD solidity of drive especially on Piano lacks BD isolation, expansive soundstage width and details.

In the end , Belt, Idler and or DD can deliver high levels of performance , setup is king. That said and at the pointy end , BD with their Big motors , high mass platters, special spindles and isolated table rules .....


Regards

You gotta be kidding. I’ve had both in my system. Have you?

Have you compared the same table, one with belt, one with direct, both with the same arm and cartridge at the same time? I have and you are sadly totally wrong.

Originally Posted by a.wayne

You do realize all the top SOTA tt's are BD , you should start reading Stereophile Myles or ask Johnny ..


Regards

So I take it the answer is no.

Perhaps you need to start investigating other sources.

The best I've had here is the VPI Vanquish and SAT arm. Top that off with an Atlas SL or vdh Colibri Signature and we are talking resolution, quietness, soundstaging, dynamics and low end up the wazoo. You can't believe LPs have tbat much info on them.

Most of all it is absurd to compare tables based soley on drive systems. You have to consider arm, cartridge, phono cable and phonostage, any of which can make or break the sound. Perhals the most underappreciated aspect is the cadtridge/arm interface and we are not talking resonant frequency. Perhaps the most overated is tracing error eg. see Viv arm with 8 pct distortion at skme pts along the arc. Not to mention setup.

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Thats all academic Myles , anyway, Interesting watching you answer your own questions while ignoring my answers, bet you win all your arguments ..




Read back , i said setup is King , you should compare the VPI to the much cheaper Technics SP10R , not to real superstar BD SOTA tables, BD rules at that level ...

So no BD doesnt suck and neither does DD ...




Regards

Answer the simple question. Yes or no. Stop obfuscating.

And I compare it to music and 15 ips tape. In the end, the true reference is the master tape.

Welcome back, Myles

What's interesting to me is that Brinkmann makes both DD and belt-driven TTs. Seems to me the tech isn't as important as the ultimate execution. For a belt-drive, it means a higher level of execution necessary presumably.

Originally Posted by KeithR

What's interesting to me is that Brinkmann makes both DD and belt-driven TTs. Seems to me the tech isn't as important as the ultimate execution. For a belt-drive, it means a higher level of execution necessary presumably.

You nailed it, its the execution along with quality parts in the design and assembly of the turntable. I've seen people take the best parts out there and slap them on a device just because they read it online with no regard for the design and the functionally of the device and it ends up functioning below the expectations of the owner. It all maters if you want the best out of your device, be it a TT, computer or a car. .

Originally Posted by asiufy

The latest 1200G already are game changers. We've replaced several Regas and VPIs for 1200Gs, and nobody complained about them not being dead quiet...
alex

agreed and with that being said I will continue to use and enjoy my VPI Aries III with super platter and SDS unit.

My two cents:

RIM drives suck ass, especially if you have high efficiency speakers.
I love well designed DD tables. The key is proper isolation from the motor or the vibrations are transmitted back into the cart/arm. DD tables have excellent PRAT. This would be my preference because of speed perfection. In my opinion, speed perfection is paramount to world class vinyl playback.
Belt drives are a safe smart bet. They don’t have the micro resonance issues or risks associated with some DD tables and are generally speed acceptable.

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Look up , I had already answered way back , more than once , so here goes again, i have all drive types and if thats not clear enough ,

1. DD
2. BD
3. Idler

There's also , Tape, yes 15ips , even a few of my own recordings, from the days when i actually designed playback systems in studios , then there's some digital , i still play shiny disc stuff (only1500 thou) there's two tuners , listen to FM jazz programs about twice a week , Toobs and SS gear , pre and power , A full assortment of loudspeaker testing gear as i still have my LMS/Leap testing suite , a few dynamic point source speakers , floor standers and stand ones , currently 7 ft tall Ribbon dipole/Hybrid occupies the listening space , a bigger 4 tower one is expected later this year, if i can wager the time, these use true Ribbons , not the quasi stuff others peddle as true ribbons, unfortunately they still suck over 20amps from the wall socket to power them ..

as well as but not least ,

A multitude of prototype stuff made by those still making "stuff" in the crazy business , some really really good , some so so , but i get to evaluate and give my 2 cents, ears not as golden as yours or your current prento , but i try ...

BTW, The only True reference is live music , you know like the ones you actually record yourself ..

Have any..?

Funny how you pop up every 5 yrs Myles with the same questions and absolute statements , i see not much has changed since your Audio Adventure days when you would come into my room , are you still listening to those 3 ft apart Logans ...


Anyway feel free to teach me "stuff" instead of discussion ..



Regards

You still haven’t answered the question.

Funny, I see you are as big a troll �� as ever and as sloppy about your facts as you are your knowledge.

Originally Posted by aKnyght

any specific examples meeting these requirements that you recommend? priced within "reason" is always nice too.

I've been bugging Mat to create a sub-$10K VPI DD TT. Fingers crossed it happens. The Technics looks good.

Originally Posted by Mike

My two cents:

RIM drives suck ass, especially if you have high efficiency speakers.
I love well designed DD tables. The key is proper isolation from the motor or the vibrations are transmitted back into the cart/arm. DD tables have excellent PRAT. This would be my preference because of speed perfection. In my opinion, speed perfection is paramount to world class vinyl playback.
Belt drives are a safe smart bet. They don’t have the micro resonance issues or risks associated with some DD tables and are generally speed acceptable.

I don't agree with that statement. I currently have the Avenger with the rim drive and I think it's all about how you setup the rim drive. Mine is dead quiet. If you don't adjust the rim drive correctly, it will affect speed and noise.

Originally Posted by aKnyght

the brinkmann bardo getting a lot of love in this thread as well.

As Mike indicated about DD ‘tables, the Bardo has superb PRaT.


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Originally Posted by mep

I don't agree with that statement. I currently have the Avenger with the rim drive and I think it's all about how you setup the rim drive. Mine is dead quiet. If you don't adjust the rim drive correctly, it will affect speed and noise.

When you have 109db efficient speakers, you will feel different. Trust me. All I heard was "whir, whir, whir". Rick Mak also agreed with me - it was way too noisy (but he was much more diplomatic in his review). The belt drive is perfection in my system. Dead quiet.

If it's working for you, that's good. Rick and I both had major noise issues.

I want to hear about a Bardo/Oasis vs SP10r shootout some day. Both DD systems, but very different ways of getting there.

Originally Posted by Mike

When you have 109db efficient speakers, you will feel different. Trust me. All I heard was "whir, whir, whir". Rick Mak also agreed with me - it was way too noisy (but he was much more diplomatic in his review). The belt drive is perfection in my system. Dead quiet.

If it's working for you, that's good. Rick and I both had major noise issues.

I certainly don't have 109dB efficient speakers and I doubt many others do either so maybe your case is an outlier?

Originally Posted by mep

I certainly don't have 109dB efficient speakers and I doubt many others do either so maybe your case is an outlier?

I thoughts so, but Rick’s speakers are only 90db and we both shared the same grief and relief to go to the belt drive.


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Originally Posted by Mike

I thoughts so, but Rick’s speakers are only 90db and we both shared the same grief and relief to go to the belt drive.


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Interesting. My NOLA KO speakers aren't picking up noise from the rim drive.

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Look up , I had already answered way back , more than once , so here goes again, i have all drive types and if thats not clear enough ,

1. DD
2. BD
3. Idler

There's also , Tape, yes 15ips , even a few of my own recordings, from the days when i actually designed playback systems in studios , then there's some digital , i still play shiny disc stuff (only1500 thou) there's two tuners , listen to FM jazz programs about twice a week , Toobs and SS gear , pre and power , A full assortment of loudspeaker testing gear as i still have my LMS/Leap testing suite , a few dynamic point source speakers , floor standers and stand ones , currently 7 ft tall Ribbon dipole/Hybrid occupies the listening space , a bigger 4 tower one is expected later this year, if i can wager the time, these use true Ribbons , not the quasi stuff others peddle as true ribbons, unfortunately they still suck over 20amps from the wall socket to power them ..

as well as but not least ,

A multitude of prototype stuff made by those still making "stuff" in the crazy business , some really really good , some so so , but i get to evaluate and give my 2 cents, ears not as golden as yours or your current prento , but i try ...

BTW, The only True reference is live music , you know like the ones you actually record yourself ..

Have any..?

Funny how you pop up every 5 yrs Myles with the same questions and absolute statements , i see not much has changed since your Audio Adventure days when you would come into my room , are you still listening to those 3 ft apart Logans ...


Anyway feel free to teach me "stuff" instead of discussion ..



Regards

I got me some of this and I got me some of that...

So why are you being such a secret squirrel about what gear you actually own? It's always helpful in order to put someone's comments into perspective when they actually divulge the names and models of the gear they are listening to in their system.

Interesting about DD and exact speed leading to PRAT, wasn't it the LP-12, at least originally, running a bit fast that gave it so called PRAT helped make it the legend it is today? I personally would want my speed exact as possible, knowing that's the reference speed of the LP.

I think someone wrote a song about it. I want to knowhat PRAT is........ I want you to show me.....