Subwoofers for muddier bass
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  1. #1
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    Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Hi Folks,

    I am currently using a pair of AZ Crescendo MkII in a 15'x20'x8' room. The Crescendos are powered with Nords One up monoblock. The problem I have in the room isn't the lack of or boomy bass but the bass is muddier. Most of the time its difficult to hear or differentiate between notes in the bass line and they presents as a one note tone. The same speakers in other places I have listened to works wonderfully and very musical. I have GIK monster bass traps in the corners behind the speakers and tried several different speaker position but without luck. The back of the speakers are about 6' from the back wall.

    I have been thinking of getting a pair of REL subwoofers to handle this problem but not sure if it would help in my situation. What are your thoughts on this ?

    Appreciate any response and thanks in advance.

    -- Dev

  2. #2
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Dev, once I put too many bass traps in my media room and my bass became one note and very overbearing. Removing two of them cured that issue for my room. Just given as an information point. As a suggestion, perhaps you could remove your current bass traps and measure the room's response and then treat to respond to the measurements.
    Regards,
    Steve


    I only do what the voices in my wife's head tell her to tell me to do.

  3. #3
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Thanks Steve. I had earlier started with 4 of them (based on GIK's recommendation from the REW measurements I had sent them) and now down to 2. It helped in making the room a bit more lively. I would certainly remove the remaining and re-measure this coming weekend. My impression from reading various forums, especially from Realtraps, is that every room needs a minimum of 8 bass traps to tame the room modes. I can't put those many numbers traps, so was looking for a solution with the subs.

  4. #4
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    If you are using them in the corners behind the speakers have you tried moving them to the corners on the other end? Don't know how you came up with the 6' from the rear positioning but have you tried moving them back to a starting point of 2' from the front baffle and coming forward 6" at a time. I usually start with divisions of the room by odd numbers as recommended by Vandersteen and then an inch at a time. In this room I use fifths and it has worked for every speaker with minor adjustments.
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon Dl-301 Mk II, Marantz HD-CD1, Auralic Aries, Aqua La Voce S2, Musical Paradise MP-D2, Modwright LS-100 with tube phono board, PS Audio BHK 250, Nola KO's, (2) Rythmik F12SE, PC's -Neotech, IC's & SC's- Audio Sensibility Testament, (2) Blue Circle PLC FX-2's with BC-62 PC's

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  5. #5
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Jack,
    the 4 traps was in the front corner (behind the speakers) stacked one on top of another. I can't move them to the other corners since these corners are occupied to other stuff - one had a sliding door and other has a cabinet.

    I think I have tried most of the speaker placement available - cardas method, Wilson method, Vandersteen method, rule of 1/3rd, rule of 1/5th, and several others which I don't remember. Started with the back against the wall (for bass reinforcement) and quickly realized that it needs to moved forward - a typical problem that usually one faces is the best position for bass is not the position for a great soundstage. The current distance gets me an excellent soundstage and good bass, its just that the bass lacks quality or isn't musical enough and sounds like a one note.

    Any other possible experiments could you think of ? The other part I wanted to understand is what causes these kind of problems ? Too much ringing ? If we understand that, then it might be easier to find a solution ?

  6. #6
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Was the bass trap design before the AZ's, if so they may not be necessary at all with that particular speaker. Like was suggested earlier take them all out and see what you get. When I had TL based Reynauds in this room I didn't use any bass traps, same with the the sealed Vandersteen's. I only had to get bass traps when I went to rear ported speakers to alleviate a 70-80 Hz hump. In the interest of full disclosure all of those earlier set ups included Vandersteen 2WQ's which may have alleviated the problem. When I put the KO's in the room I never could get the 2WQ's to blend with the Nola's so I took them out. Then the obvious hump was hard to avoid. It was then that I had to look for other solutions.
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon Dl-301 Mk II, Marantz HD-CD1, Auralic Aries, Aqua La Voce S2, Musical Paradise MP-D2, Modwright LS-100 with tube phono board, PS Audio BHK 250, Nola KO's, (2) Rythmik F12SE, PC's -Neotech, IC's & SC's- Audio Sensibility Testament, (2) Blue Circle PLC FX-2's with BC-62 PC's

    Family Room - Oppo 83SE, Auralic Aries Mini w/LPS, W4S Recovery with iPower, Nuprime DAC-10, Nord One Up SI, Spatial M3 Turbo S, (2) ACI Force XL's, Cables- Wireworld & Cullen Cable

  7. #7
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Ok, so I removed all the traps and the results are surprising. The sound stage opened up quiet a bit and now I stated to feel the musicality in the bass but its a bit bloated which I guess is expected after removing the bass traps. This weekend I would take some measurements and see what gives. I also think I might need to redo the speaker placement.

    Now that I think back, apart for the audio shows, the two personal rooms (one is of Robert's itself) I heard the Crescendos did not have any bass traps either. So may be it was fault on my part and overthinking that every room needs some. Now that I have bloated bass, how do I go about solving this ?

    Btw Jack, how did you solve the 70-80 Hz hump ? Its been a long time since I took measurements of my room but as far as I can recollect, I have a deep suck out in 30-40Hz range and few humps in the 80Hz and 120Hz range.

  8. #8
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Dev - what you are hearing now, is it with your Pass amps or your NORD amps?

    30-40hz + 80-120hz is a big range.

    Mike
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  9. #9
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Dev - what you are hearing now, is it with your Pass amps or your NORD amps?

    30-40hz + 80-120hz is a big range.

    Mike
    Sorry Mike, I might not been clear - One big suck out closer to 37Hz and two peaks - one closer to 87Hz and another one closer to 120Hz. These were taken a long time back and at the time I was using the Pass X250.5. Since then I have changed speaker position multiple times. I will redo this weekend and repost. Sorry for the confusion.

    Right now I am using the Nords.

  10. #10
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    Sorry Mike, I might not been clear - One big suck out closer to 37Hz and two peaks - one closer to 87Hz and another one closer to 120Hz. These were taken a long time back and at the time I was using the Pass X250.5. Since then I have changed speaker position multiple times. I will redo this weekend and repost. Sorry for the confusion.

    Right now I am using the Nords.
    Go back to the Pass as well. Give that a try.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: AAvik Electronics, Air Tight, Aurender, Ansuz Cables, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Chord, Crystal Cable, Dali Loudspeakers, Entreq, Esoteric, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers, Focal Headphones, ISO Acoustics, Kimber Kable, KLAudio, KR Audio, Kronos, Lampizator, Lumin, Magico Loudspeakers, Manley Labs, Melco Audio, MicroMega, M2Tech, Ortofon, Pass Labs, PlayBack Designs, PS Audio, Quadraspire, Raidho Loudspeakers, Rega Turntables, REL Acoustics, Shunyata Research, Siltech, Solid Tech Racks, SOtM, Soulution Audio, SRA, Straight Wire, Stillpoints, Tannoy Loudspeakers, Transfiguration Cartridges, Triode Corporation of Japan, VAC, Vandersteen Speakers, Vicoustics, Vitus Audio, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, ZYX Cartridges.

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