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Thread: MQA Discussion

  1. #1301
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    MQA Discussion

    My inbox was full with complaints. I’m not closing the thread because it’s taken me years to compile a central location for everything MQA.

    Hopefully you two can agree to disagree.

    Speaking of filters, it appears this thread needed one today.


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  2. #1302

    MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    My inbox was full with complaints. I’m not closing the thread because it’s taken me years to compile a central location for everything MQA.

    Hopefully you two can agree to disagree.

    Speaker of filters, it appears this thread needed one today.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Thanks for the feedback Mike, I agree with you.

    Appears it is indeed very difficult to have a fact based online discussion about MQA. Instead of substance opinions, pretense of technical expertise and misinformation are used to create confusion. E.g. a point about frequency output at the loudspeaker is not really an argument against MQA, but rather against any hi-res content in general incl. DSD. It does not have anything to do with MQA encoding at all. I exposed some of that behavior, but it does not make for a very nice conversation. When claims are made without backing them up an exchange becomes really meaningless and so my further participation is pointless.

    I won’t post on this thread again, there are for sure people with better knowledge on MQA than myself.


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  3. #1303
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuoppis View Post
    I won’t post on this thread again, there are for sure people with better knowledge on MQA than myself.
    Probably a good thing, since IMHO your posts were the most offensive in language and intent
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  4. #1304
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  5. #1305
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    MQA at CES per Stereophile https://www.stereophile.com/content/...qobuz-and-more
    No mention of MQA with Qobuz??
    Or the new condition it induces, Rabidfanboyismia? Ok, just kidding.
    They don't seem to give any details of the actual number of devices, just percentages. Will expand on later..

  6. #1306
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    No mention of MQA with Qobuz??
    Finally something to look forward to. Now to wait another 5 years for it to get to Canada...

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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Dan

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  8. #1308
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  9. #1309
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by LVB View Post
    Atkinson piece came across as back-paddling, he as well went full on-board the MQA craze, perhaps too soon...
    This finally appeared on the Website a few days ago

    https://www.stereophile.com/category/we-see-it
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  10. #1310
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    This finally appeared on the Website a few days ago

    https://www.stereophile.com/category/we-see-it
    Regardless of MQA's technical elegance and promised increase in sound quality, the removal of consumer choice in recorded music is indeed a relevant issue.—John Atkinson
    Pretty refreshing admission, even if the non-critical thinkers will gloss over it.
    The openly stated goal is unauthentic Master Quality Aliasing for all, no choice.

  11. #1311

    Re: MQA Discussion

    Roon will (finally) be doing the first MQA unfold. This from MQA folks:

    MQA Music Players

    Roon Labs is the latest software partner to announce integrated MQA support for its award-winning music player. Roon’s desktop software will support local MQA file playback, as well as TIDAL MQA streaming for HiFi subscribers.

    Roon now joins MQA software partners Amarra and Audirvana, who both continue to work on their Windows implementation of MQA. Audirvana Plus for Windows 10 will be released by end of January 2018, enjoying the same feature levels as Audirvana Plus for Mac, and benefiting additionally from a totally redesigned user interface.

  12. #1312
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Finally!
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  13. #1313
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Roon will (finally) be doing the first MQA unfold. This from MQA folks:

    MQA Music Players

    Roon Labs is the latest software partner to announce integrated MQA support for its award-winning music player. Roon’s desktop software will support local MQA file playback, as well as TIDAL MQA streaming for HiFi subscribers.

    Roon now joins MQA software partners Amarra and Audirvana, who both continue to work on their Windows implementation of MQA. Audirvana Plus for Windows 10 will be released by end of January 2018, enjoying the same feature levels as Audirvana Plus for Mac, and benefiting additionally from a totally redesigned user interface.

    That is good news
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  14. #1314
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    hey guys - what does the MQA catalog look like these days?

    I remember a few months ago around 7,500 titles.
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  15. #1315
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithR View Post
    hey guys - what does the MQA catalog look like these days?

    I remember a few months ago around 7,500 titles.
    Around 10K

    http://www.meridianunplugged.com/ubb...318#Post268318

    click on MQA_list.csv
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  16. #1316

    Re: MQA Discussion

    I want something much simpler from Roon... Just identify the bloody MQA songs while browsing Tidal, from within Roon!!!!!! Will surely make our lives easier...

  17. #1317

    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by asiufy View Post
    I want something much simpler from Roon... Just identify the bloody MQA songs while browsing Tidal, from within Roon!!!!!! Will surely make our lives easier...
    That already exists. Within Roon, click on Tidal. You will see a tab that reads “Masters”. All the albums under that Tab are MQA albums. Unfortunately, not ALL avail MQA albums are shown under the tab.

  18. #1318

    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    That already exists. Within Roon, click on Tidal. You will see a tab that reads “Masters”. All the albums under that Tab are MQA albums. Unfortunately, not ALL avail MQA albums are shown under the tab.
    That's not what I wrote. I want to, while browsing Tidal, to be able to identify which are MQA albums/tracks and which aren't. Simple.

  19. #1319
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by asiufy View Post
    I want to, while browsing Tidal, to be able to identify which are MQA albums/tracks and which aren't. Simple.
    The reason Roon does not provide this functionality is here:
    https://community.roonlabs.com/t/tid...-roon/22228/40

    Tidal desktop app and Lumin app do.
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  20. #1320
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by asiufy View Post
    That's not what I wrote. I want to, while browsing Tidal, to be able to identify which are MQA albums/tracks and which aren't. Simple.
    The above in not what you asked for in the previous post. Here you state “while browsing Tidal” that can be done. In your previous post you indicate when in Roon you want to be able to identify MQA titles in Tidal. As you stated that can’t be done.
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  21. #1321

    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    The above in not what you asked for in the previous post. Here you state “while browsing Tidal” that can be done. In your previous post you indicate when in Roon you want to be able to identify MQA titles in Tidal. As you stated that can’t be done.
    I'm sorry if I didn't repeat the whole line... But here it is: I want to, while browsing Tidal, *within Roon*, to be able to identify which are MQA and which aren't.
    I found the excuses that were pointed in Roon's forum to be, frankly, ridiculous. So Roon can display the little "E" badge for explicit lyrics, but it somehow doesn't know which album is MQA and which aren't...
    Maybe wklie can shed some light into this, since his company HAS been able to identify the MQA tracks and properly badge them...

  22. #1322
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by asiufy View Post
    Maybe wklie can shed some light into this, since his company HAS been able to identify the MQA tracks and properly badge them...
    The way we show the MQA icon for Tidal in Lumin app is straightforward - simply according to the metadata Tidal gives us.

    My understanding is that Roon CTO considered this method to be not perfect. It may occur that the metadata indicates it's a Tidal Master album, but actual Tidal streaming downgrade it to CD quality or refuse to stream it due to regional licensing, etc. (However, we never received such a report. And even if this inaccuracy can happen occasionally in theory, I still think it's better to offer this function.)
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  23. #1323

    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by wklie View Post
    The way we show the MQA icon for Tidal in Lumin app is straightforward - simply according to the metadata Tidal gives us.

    My understanding is that Roon CTO considered this method to be not perfect. It may occur that the metadata indicates it's a Tidal Master album, but actual Tidal streaming downgrade it to CD quality or refuse to stream it due to regional licensing, etc. (However, we never received such a report. And even if this inaccuracy can happen occasionally in theory, I still think it's better to offer this function.)
    Yep, that's what I understood as well. Since it's out of their control, they'd rather not provide the information. Clearly unacceptable, but...
    I don't get that excuse, specially given that you can always get the exact signal path with Roon, by click on that blob next to the song that's being played. Seems like they expect Tidal to do all the work for then, and only present the MQA album when it can actually be played as such (taking into account the user's subscription, settings, etc.)

  24. #1324
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by asiufy View Post
    Yep, that's what I understood as well. Since it's out of their control, they'd rather not provide the information. Clearly unacceptable, but...
    I don't get that excuse, specially given that you can always get the exact signal path with Roon, by click on that blob next to the song that's being played. Seems like they expect Tidal to do all the work for then, and only present the MQA album when it can actually be played as such (taking into account the user's subscription, settings, etc.)
    I'm sorry but this is a load of crap, if I've ever read one.

    If they don't want to display false positives that's their choice and I agree with them. Don't use Roon if you think they are holding out because they are lazy and don't want to do the work.

  25. #1325

    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Tone View Post
    I'm sorry but this is a load of crap, if I've ever read one.

    If they don't want to display false positives that's their choice and I agree with them. Don't use Roon if you think they are holding out because they are lazy and don't want to do the work.
    I love Roon. It's by far the best interface. They go above and beyond, including that nice signal path display. I just don't get why they can't be bothered to provide another piece of very useful information. You don't need to get all worked up about it. I was just venting my frustration with an otherwise incredible product.

    I never said they're lazy, I just don't think their excuse is a good one. Again, no need for you to get all worked up about it...

    cheers,
    Alex

  26. #1326
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

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  27. #1327
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    There are now 10000+ MQA albums on Tidal including duplicates, based on the MQA_List.csv from meridianplugged forum.

    According to Roon forum, "removing Duplicates, Singles & EPs there are 7,392 Albums in the list."
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  28. #1328
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    MUSINGS/MEASUREMENTS: On "blurring" and why MQA probably worsens transient smearing.

    http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2018/02...d-why.html?m=1

  29. #1329
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  30. #1330
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    I read this the other day, and wondered then how anyone could possibly think MQA is a good thing for the music lover who cares about good sound. Perhaps coincidentally, there is a similar opinion expressed here

    http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin..._Res_Audio.htm
    Rob
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  31. #1331
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    I read this the other day, and wondered then how anyone could possibly think MQA is a good thing for the music lover who cares about good sound. Perhaps coincidentally, there is a similar opinion expressed here

    http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin..._Res_Audio.htm
    How? It's easy to answer. You just have to listen.
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  32. #1332
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    I read this the other day, and wondered then how anyone could possibly think MQA is a good thing for the music lover who cares about good sound. Perhaps coincidentally, there is a similar opinion expressed here

    http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin..._Res_Audio.htm
    Some ridiculous claims made as well.

    1) People that don't like MQA because it's lossy with possible future DRM implications are biased and that's why they don't like the sound of MQA. He then proceeded to say that MQA for a fact is at least as good as the source lossless master.

    2) Persons with large music collections most likely used questionable means to get their content.

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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Tone View Post
    Some ridiculous claims made as well.

    1) People that don't like MQA because it's lossy with possible future DRM implications are biased and that's why they don't like the sound of MQA. He then proceeded to say that MQA for a fact is at least as good as the source lossless master.

    2) Persons with large music collections most likely used questionable means to get their content.
    3) People who buy a $99 MQA DAC to only proclaim MQA sucks. No, your DAC does.


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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    3) People who buy a $99 MQA DAC to only proclaim MQA sucks. No, your DAC does.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    If it isn't obvious on a $99 DAC when Bob is trying to market this to mobile, why would anyone in their right mind spend big money on a new MQA Dac?

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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Tone View Post
    If it isn't obvious on a $99 DAC when Bob is trying to market this to mobile, why would anyone in their right mind spend big money on a new MQA Dac?
    Because a $99 DAC is still a $99 DAC. When someone puts that on a $50,000 system, it will suck. The issue is they compare the MQA version on a $99 DAC to the PCM version on a $10,000 DAC. It’s like trying to win a race with three tires missing.


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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Because a $99 DAC is still a $99 DAC. When someone puts that on a $50,000 system, it will suck. The issue is they compare the MQA version on a $99 DAC to the PCM version on a $10,000 DAC. It’s like trying to win a race with three tires missing.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Well that's silly, you compare it to the PCM version on the same DAC.

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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Tone View Post
    Well that's silly, you compare it to the PCM version on the same DAC.
    Of course you do. But I’ve read posts by people proclaiming MQA not to be so great, after their $99 experiment.

    I had a gentleman in the store yesterday. We did Redbook/DSD vs MQA comparisons on the MSB Select II and he was completely blown away at the MQA.
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    But how MQA sounds is almost irrelevant to whether or not MQA is a "good thing". It's proprietary, it will limit our format choices (if MQA has its way, fortunately not yet a done deal), it prevents users from using DSP without additional A>D and D>A steps, and in the long run it will cost us more money.

    If MQA's filtering actually results in consistent sonic improvement, I have no doubt that that can be incorporated into A>D and D>A of lossless hi-res PCM (and quite possibly even better sound quality).

    Why these (to me) obvious issues with MQA continue to be essentially ignored by its proponents continues to baffle me.
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    But how MQA sounds is almost irrelevant to whether or not MQA is a "good thing". It's proprietary, it will limit our format choices (if MQA has its way, fortunately not yet a done deal), it prevents users from using DSP without additional A>D and D>A steps, and in the long run it will cost us more money.

    If MQA's filtering actually results in consistent sonic improvement, I have no doubt that that can be incorporated into A>D and D>A of lossless hi-res PCM (and quite possibly even better sound quality).

    Why these (to me) obvious issues with MQA continue to be essentially ignored by its proponents continues to baffle me.
    In audio, how it sounds is the main thing that matters. Everything else is just to keep beating the horse.
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    In audio, how it sounds is the main thing that matters. Everything else is just to keep beating the horse.
    For me, it’s more about the music and having access to it. Although MQA sounds better than MP3, I don’t see a significant difference if a piece of music is only offered in MP3 compared to only offered in MQA, except that MP3 is open source, and may be cheaper as well.

    Another analogy might be a “limited edition” LP being the only way some music is released.
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    For me, it’s more about the music and having access to it. Although MQA sounds better than MP3, I don’t see a significant difference if a piece of music is only offered in MP3 compared to only offered in MQA, except that MP3 is open source, and may be cheaper as well.

    Another analogy might be a “limited edition” LP being the only way some music is released.
    Except it isn't MP3 quality, it is better than CD quality and mostly equal to hi - Rez versions. Easy to compare and hear it and I have been for over a year now.
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    In audio, how it sounds is the main thing that matters. Everything else is just to keep beating the horse.
    So very true Jim. Its how it sounds in the end. I really don't care how the music is complied what mics or mixers are used or whom the engineer is, just give provide me a good product that sounds good regardless of format or medium used.
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    For intelligent people, there seems to be an astonishing myopia here. We've already been through this, and now (at last?) Stereophile is willing to admit it too. Once MQA, always MQA, and that's pretty much that. No more improvements in digital audio outside of that format. DSD? sorry, toast, no way an MQA signatory record company will bother. Better PCM? Sorry guys, the MQA filter algorithms are what we are using, now and forever.

    Nothing in what the MQA principalls have said denies the truth of each of those statements, in fact in some instances they brag about it. I personally think there are plenty of existing digital designers and engineers more talented than those at MQA, and many of them have expressed their dissatisfaction. Kind of lonely voices in the wilderness, though, without the funding and logistical backing of the Big Three music companies.
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Here’s a recent post made by Danny from Roon to support what Rob just said.

    https://community.roonlabs.com/t/is-...0/336?u=drtone

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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    For intelligent people, there seems to be an astonishing myopia here. We've already been through this, and now (at last?) Stereophile is willing to admit it too. Once MQA, always MQA, and that's pretty much that. No more improvements in digital audio outside of that format. DSD? sorry, toast, no way an MQA signatory record company will bother. Better PCM? Sorry guys, the MQA filter algorithms are what we are using, now and forever.

    Nothing in what the MQA principalls have said denies the truth of each of those statements, in fact in some instances they brag about it. I personally think there are plenty of existing digital designers and engineers more talented than those at MQA, and many of them have expressed their dissatisfaction. Kind of lonely voices in the wilderness, though, without the funding and logistical backing of the Big Three music companies.
    This was pretty much the core of the late Charlie Hansen's argument against MQA,

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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post

    Why these (to me) obvious issues with MQA continue to be essentially ignored by its proponents continues to baffle me.
    +1 on this Rob.

    This has been a huge question for me. Why go lossy, especially with massive hard drive sizes, faster Internet connections and better cellular provider's networks? There are two markets MQA claims to be targeting.

    1. The mobile market - which seems to be vaporware -- what mobile devices have a hardware DAC in them that can do MQA and is it really going to sound that much better than streamed music since the DAC quality is going to be very cheap? Let's not even get into the dearth of MQA streaming providers for mobile devices.

    2. The audiophile market. MQA has been entirely marketing and making their case to the audiophile community. Look at all the effort put into the big audiophile shows (Munich, RMAF, etc.) and into the $3,500 plus DAC segment (in reality it's more like $10K+).

    So what happened to this whole raison d'etre that we need MQA because it has smaller file sizes thus streams easier, and sounds better? The only thing that's left is "sounds better". So why not take that and put it into a full lossless FLAC file and forget about the lossy part? They have been doing a lot of research on how to market MQA over the last year. Recall the whole discussion about if you had a FLAC file that was also MQA encoded that it would have the original lossless file AND the MQA unfolding in it? All that means is that at a bare minimum, the file is going to be slightly larger than the original file size. So again, out the window goes this smaller file claim unless you're only streaming.

    I will admit that MQA can sound pretty good at times. But that's not always the case. My preference is still for DSD.

    Enlighten me as to why it has to be lossy/smaller?
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by radioactive View Post
    +1 on this Rob.

    This has been a huge question for me. Why go lossy, especially with massive hard drive sizes, faster Internet connections and better cellular provider's networks? There are two markets MQA claims to be targeting.

    1. The mobile market - which seems to be vaporware -- what mobile devices have a hardware DAC in them that can do MQA and is it really going to sound that much better than streamed music since the DAC quality is going to be very cheap? Let's not even get into the dearth of MQA streaming providers for mobile devices.

    I will admit that MQA can sound pretty good at times. But that's not always the case. My preference is still for DSD.

    Enlighten me as to why it has to be lossy/smaller?
    The ironic part is Tidal doesn’t support MQA streaming on their mobile apps. As far as I know only Roon will allow MQA through an external DAC via it’s mobile endpoints.

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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Does it if you have a fully capable MQA DAC?
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Does it if you have a fully capable MQA DAC?
    No such thing. If you're running Tidal on an app (via an iPhone/iPad/Galaxy/Android device), then you can't exactly plug in a USB DAC. The driver's won't work that way. So you're back to running Tidal on a PC that can support USB 2.0 devices. (maybe raspberry pi's, but I don't think there's a Tidal app for that, I don't know for sure...even then it would be a nightmare to setup.)
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