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Thread: MQA Discussion

  1. #1
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    MQA Discussion

    There is a very detailed Q&A with Bob Stuart discussing MQA on the Computeraudiophile site that was just posted. This is going to take some time to plow through.
    Jim

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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    There is a very detailed Q&A with Bob Stuart discussing MQA on the Computeraudiophile site that was just posted. This is going to take some time to plow through.
    I think this is the link:

    http://www.computeraudiophile.com/co...-s-bob-stuart/
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Thanks. I wasn't sure if links to certain sites was appropriate.
    Jim

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    Re: MQA Discussion

    The new May/June issue of The Absolute Sounds has a very large article on MQA... actually the cover story. I have not read the story yet.
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    My impression of the Absolute Sound article: I want to believe but it sounds too good to be true. Even if it was true, will the industry adopt it?

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    Re: MQA Discussion

    For those attending T.H.E. Show Newport Beach check out MQA in room 1201.

    That's it folks. That's all I know. I searched the room number and no other exhibitors were listed.

    Meridian will be in rooms 1248 & 1249.

  8. #8

    Re: MQA Discussion

    Does anyone know if MQA will be available for listening at AXPONA? If so, who is presenting the technology? It looks to me as if the obvious host, Meridian, is not holding court this weekend in Chicago.
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Exhibitors that will be demonstrating MQA at AXPONA are detailed here for your reference.

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    Re: MQA Discussion

    So I'll start the flame then. There are two things I don't like about MQA:

    1. The MQA file is not the same as the hi-rez pcm/DSD master that the recording studios don't want to let out of their vaults. This means they can hold on to their "precious" and not let the "perfect recording" out of their hands. The MQA DAC will take an MQA encoded file and produce the output equivalent of the hi-rez pcm/DSD master, but you can't get that in digital format, it's only available at the analog output. So the studios have another format to push on people and not let go of the real high quality recordings.
    2. The MQA DAC is intended to light up a LED or some other indicator that says the signal is verified as the same as the master, thus the name Master Quality Authenticated. This is nothing more than a gimmick in my book. Any signal/file that is not doesn't get the little light or LED lit up. So what? Who cares? Really, is this what consumers have been reduced to as idiots who crave a stupid light telling us that only their special DAC chip can convert the signal into the equivalent of the original master? I mean, really.

    MQA may sound great, but it's catering to the studios by giving them an intermediate format to release that is not DSD/WAV/Hi-Rez/etc. I don't like that they think consumers are stupid enough to not see through the gimmicks and shenanigans the studios are constantly throwing at us. The entire claim to fame of the format is that it's "smarter" and can account for sound travelling through air as the previous filters were unable to do. So why not just do what is right for everyone and make that high-rez signal available throughout the chain? I don't get the need to not give access to the full file and only make it available at the analog output and so I can't trust they have the consumer's interests at heart.

    Maybe I am just so burned by the industry that I can't see altruism -- so please enlighten me if you believe otherwise.
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by radioactive View Post
    So I'll start the flame then. There are two things I don't like about MQA:

    1. The MQA file is not the same as the hi-rez pcm/DSD master that the recording studios don't want to let out of their vaults. This means they can hold on to their "precious" and not let the "perfect recording" out of their hands. The MQA DAC will take an MQA encoded file and produce the output equivalent of the hi-rez pcm/DSD master, but you can't get that in digital format, it's only available at the analog output. So the studios have another format to push on people and not let go of the real high quality recordings.
    2. The MQA DAC is intended to light up a LED or some other indicator that says the signal is verified as the same as the master, thus the name Master Quality Authenticated. This is nothing more than a gimmick in my book. Any signal/file that is not doesn't get the little light or LED lit up. So what? Who cares? Really, is this what consumers have been reduced to as idiots who crave a stupid light telling us that only their special DAC chip can convert the signal into the equivalent of the original master? I mean, really.

    MQA may sound great, but it's catering to the studios by giving them an intermediate format to release that is not DSD/WAV/Hi-Rez/etc. I don't like that they think consumers are stupid enough to not see through the gimmicks and shenanigans the studios are constantly throwing at us. The entire claim to fame of the format is that it's "smarter" and can account for sound travelling through air as the previous filters were unable to do. So why not just do what is right for everyone and make that high-rez signal available throughout the chain? I don't get the need to not give access to the full file and only make it available at the analog output and so I can't trust they have the consumer's interests at heart.

    Maybe I am just so burned by the industry that I can't see altruism -- so please enlighten me if you believe otherwise.
    What business in their right mind wants to give up their intellectual property rights. You seem to think we as software consumers have the right to this. Absolutely unbelievable.
    Jim

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  12. #12
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    MQA Discussion

    Bryan - I can appreciate your skepticism of MQA. But when you heard it, what did you think? Did you finally hear digital that rivaled vinyl? Did you hear the phase imperfections with digital were finally fixed? Or were you not impressed?

    As for the MQA file not being the same as the original PCM/DSD file, I say thank God. We already have those and they aren't perfect. My argument is that digital never gets the phase right like analog. Instruments don't have their proper space in time like I hear with Vinyl and tape.

    I'm glad there is a new format. It's overdue. The AD converters have gotten better, but they are still not perfect. MQA proposes to correct many faults in the AD process.

    I am not proclaiming MQA to be a panacea - as I said, in my many listening experiences - some were good, others were "meh". TBD is my answer for now.

    MQA's showing at Axpona was poor. There was a PSB/NAD setup and then a headphone setup with Mytek. Disappointing there wasn't a big MQA room.

    MQA also will be mostly available through Tidal. That's good because I'm not sure how many more Miles Davis Kind of Blue copies I'm willing to buy.

    As for the LED light, well, remember, MQA is not marketed to audiophiles, Meridian wants to make it a mass market format. But perhaps the LED light will give the list need reassurance they are listening to MQA. Right now we have read outs on many DAC's showing "16/44" or "DSD".


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    Re: MQA Discussion

    My biggest question is totaling understanding the setup needed to play it back. the Absolute Sound long long article was more praising the second coming then explaining exactly how it will be implemented. The backward compatible is BS to me. So I am going to get these new type of files and even if I don't have support I can still listen to them in Redbook quality. Woopy doo....

    But, he never really explained exactly what you need to play them at the quality he was describing. Most of us can not afford the Meridian gear that he was using.

    So, I have heard that Roon is compatible. Ok, cool, but is this all that is needed or is this only one part of the equation? Will special DACs also be needed? Again not all of us can run out and buy a new DAC just because of this new format no matter how good TAS makes it sound. So is Roon all I need or would I also need a new DAC.

    Also, he obviously has been drinking the Meridian kool-aid.... I do not believe he did any real comparisons to DSD, but mainly Redbook and some PCM. In my book DSD is vastly better than both of those.... so how does MQA compare here. Obviously one of his main focuses was streaming and Tidal... again... to many people big woopy do... I care not for streaming and I am not going to subscribe to another service. I believe that streaming itself has a long long way to go before I will ever be interested in it.

    I did not buy a nice stereo to stream music which eats up band width. I mean we already have over 20 devices in the house competing for band width. Streaming will make it just that much worse.

    And another obvious thought, just how long do you think it will be before Internet providers start capping our data. And then what? No, if I want music I purchase it. So, how does MQA fall here.... also, I have my main Roon Server, but I also have music on my portable, and on a separate server for my headphone setup. With the "authorization" system will I be able to listen in all three setups? Also, Authorization implies that the system has to be "online" and reaches back to the mother ship to give authority to play certain music. So how will this work when not online, ala, my portable in my office?

    None of these practical type questions were addressed in TAS article, only the proclamation of the second coming was, obviously after having a huge gulp of the Meridian kool-aide.
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    I appreciate your point, but what I'm saying is that we're specifically paying for the hi-rez copy, not the lower quality already. So yes, there are software businesses that sell exclusive rights, I know because I'm in the business. Sure, it costs more to exclusively license, which is the equivalent to buying the rights to listen to the hi-rez files. I'd also argue that any business should be more than happy to license such a deal as it can generate more revenue than a limited license so yes, I'm absolutely aware of what I'm saying. I stick by my statement Jim.


    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    What business in their right mind wants to give up their intellectual property rights. You seem to think we as software consumers have the right to this. Absolutely unbelievable.
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Like most format issues/wars they are determined by consumers who are often aware of the issues. This is a very complicated issue and I wonder how many consumers are going to fully understand everything. As for DAC compatibility, supposedly all DAC's in the future will be able to decode MQA so yes, you'll have to buy a new DAC (or perhaps one that supports it via a new FW where they can make significant changes that way. One example would be FPGA based DAC's.)

    Anyone remember divx ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    My biggest question is totaling understanding the setup needed to play it back. the Absolute Sound long long article was more praising the second coming then explaining exactly how it will be implemented. The backward compatible is BS to me. So I am going to get these new type of files and even if I don't have support I can still listen to them in Redbook quality. Woopy doo....

    But, he never really explained exactly what you need to play them at the quality he was describing. Most of us can not afford the Meridian gear that he was using.

    So, I have heard that Roon is compatible. Ok, cool, but is this all that is needed or is this only one part of the equation? Will special DACs also be needed? Again not all of us can run out and buy a new DAC just because of this new format no matter how good TAS makes it sound. So is Roon all I need or would I also need a new DAC.

    Also, he obviously has been drinking the Meridian kool-aid.... I do not believe he did any real comparisons to DSD, but mainly Redbook and some PCM. In my book DSD is vastly better than both of those.... so how does MQA compare here. Obviously one of his main focuses was streaming and Tidal... again... to many people big woopy do... I care not for streaming and I am not going to subscribe to another service. I believe that streaming itself has a long long way to go before I will ever be interested in it.

    I did not buy a nice stereo to stream music which eats up band width. I mean we already have over 20 devices in the house competing for band width. Streaming will make it just that much worse.

    And another obvious thought, just how long do you think it will be before Internet providers start capping our data. And then what? No, if I want music I purchase it. So, how does MQA fall here.... also, I have my main Roon Server, but I also have music on my portable, and on a separate server for my headphone setup. With the "authorization" system will I be able to listen in all three setups? Also, Authorization implies that the system has to be "online" and reaches back to the mother ship to give authority to play certain music. So how will this work when not online, ala, my portable in my office?

    None of these practical type questions were addressed in TAS article, only the proclamation of the second coming was, obviously after having a huge gulp of the Meridian kool-aide.
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Mike,

    I thought it sounded like hi-rez and nothing more. Not sure what that means, but I wasn't impressed; perhaps I just didn't drink enough cool-aid first I do believe it's possible to make a recording sound better, and that algorithms have significantly improved in the last 30 years -- mathematical computation has come a long way and much of that has produced some incredible data to formulate theory. I'm sure we could do a lot better than what we have now. My issue is in trying to "protect" for the sake of profit, rather than actually making something that is the equivalent of lossless compression (which by the way came from public source, not from-profit which is why I question anything that comes from an entity that is for-profit when it comes to "standards/rfc's, etc."). I also realize that companies (and people working for them) need to make profits, but as a consumer, I've grown to mistrust the music industry and MQA feels like something the recording labels came up with more than anything else. Do we have actual numbers that back who/what paid for all the research and investment in MQA? I'm not a conspiracy theorists, just asking a question because I'm actually interested in that data.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Bryan - I can appreciate your skepticism of MQA. But when you heard it, what did you think? Did you finally hear digital that rivaled vinyl? Did you hear the phase imperfections with digital were finally fixed? Or were you not impressed?

    As for the MQA file not being the same as the original PCM/DSD file, I say thank God. We already have those and they aren't perfect. My argument is that digital never gets the phase right like analog. Instruments don't have their proper space in time like I hear with Vinyl and tape.

    I'm glad there is a new format. It's overdue. The AD converters have gotten better, but they are still not perfect. MQA proposes to correct many faults in the AD process.

    I am not proclaiming MQA to be a panacea - as I said, in my many listening experiences - some were good, others were "meh". TBD is my answer for now.

    MQA's showing at Axpona was poor. There was a PSB/NAD setup and then a headphone setup with Mytek. Disappointing there wasn't a big MQA room.

    MQA also will be mostly available through Tidal. That's good because I'm not sure how many more Miles Davis Kind of Blue copies I'm willing to buy.

    As for the LED light, well, remember, MQA is not marketed to audiophiles, Meridian wants to make it a mass market format. But perhaps the LED light will give the list need reassurance they are listening to MQA. Right now we have read outs on many DAC's showing "16/44" or "DSD".


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    Office System: B&W N802D2, NAD M10
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  17. #17
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Unless I'm mistaken, Bob Stuart from Meridian paid for it.

    If you're frustrated with digital - try sticking with vinyl or better yet, grab a nice Studer or Ampex like I've done and get back to tape. "Nothing sounds like tape." Chad's announcement at the tape forum on Friday at Axpona was great to hear.


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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Thanks Mike, you always have a way of bringing it home . Frankly, I might go back to analog if it weren't for the lack of convenience. I don't hate digital, For starters, I am leery of another proclaimed panacea. That and I love a good discourse . I may play devil's advocate just to be sure I'm hearing everyone's side. Ultimately, I highly doubt this will take hold; there are too many issues. But if we can get them all out in the open at least everyone can try to make an informed decision.

    For the record, (no pun intended), I happen to enjoy digital. The convenience, ease of access to new, rare, or hard to obtain music cannot be under appreciated. So to me, if MQA even manages to bring an end to "the loudness wars", I consider it a win. If it improves the standard, regular quality that the masses get then it's a win. I just do not want it leading to an end to audiophiles' access to high quality recordings, which we barely got.
    Ref System: Wilson Alexx on Stillpoint Ultras w/Base, dCS Rossini & Upsampler & Clock, Audio Research REF 160S, REF 6SE, WW Platinum Everywhere, Roon
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    - LED: My understanding is that it helps verify the data is not tampered with accidentally, say, via inaccurate CD rip with read error (which is quite common), software setting or processing or bug that destroyed the data integrity via format conversion between WAV / FLAC / ALAC / AIFF (MQA is designed to survive such format conversion), or something as simple as digital volume, or your computer OS re-sampling and/or re-mixing the music. I guess the LED helps users confirm the setup is correct. This is perhaps not unlike DTS-HDMA lighting up on an AV amplifier.

    - What you need: I think the simple answer is that you'll need to purchase a MQA DAC, or hope that your DAC manufacturer provides some kind of upgrade path.

    - Being online: as far as I understand, this is not necessary and it is not DRM.

  20. #20
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by radioactive View Post
    Thanks Mike, you always have a way of bringing it home . Frankly, I might go back to analog if it weren't for the lack of convenience. I don't hate digital, For starters, I am leery of another proclaimed panacea. That and I love a good discourse . I may play devil's advocate just to be sure I'm hearing everyone's side. Ultimately, I highly doubt this will take hold; there are too many issues. But if we can get them all out in the open at least everyone can try to make an informed decision.

    For the record, (no pun intended), I happen to enjoy digital. The convenience, ease of access to new, rare, or hard to obtain music cannot be under appreciated. So to me, if MQA even manages to bring an end to "the loudness wars", I consider it a win. If it improves the standard, regular quality that the masses get then it's a win. I just do not want it leading to an end to audiophiles' access to high quality recordings, which we barely got.
    Bryan - thanks. I understand the "here we go again" with the heralded claims of a perfect format. But at least we have something to fuss about and aren't stuck with the same old same old.

    I would encourage you to get a Vinyl rig... I'm a huge fan and always have been. With RCM's, the "inconvenience" is dramatically decreased.
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    This is an issue I have. Every time a new and improved comes out it requires repurchasing equipment that is functioning perfectly. And many times the previous formats go out of favor so fast that the consumer is left holding the bag. I assume we all recall how many various formats that these companies have came out with for music and video (and many that you probably don't remember, RCA vinyl video anyone). It definitely leaves you with the feeling of not wanting to jump on the latest fad unless it is truly backwards compatible. Meaning new equipment is not required...

    And saying it is backwards compatible but at a lower grade is non-sense. Honestly I think these companies shoot themselves in the foot all the time, usually motivated by greed.

    BTW- making a huge point about file size is a non-starter to me. Storage space is dirt cheap.... Yea it could make streaming a little easier, but again, to many of us we could not care. The more we tie ourselves to streaming online the more we give ISPs leverage to cap data usage and / or charge for extra (which is definitely what they are wanting and moving towards).
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Every time a new and improved comes out it requires repurchasing equipment that is functioning perfectly.
    That's life. And it's even worse for AV amplifier: Dolby Digital, DTS, TrueHD, DTS-HDMA, Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, and different HDMI versions and HDCP versions. My huge collection of DVD is already obsolete many years ago. Quickly Blu-ray will become obsolete by the new 4K Ultra Blu-ray.

  23. #23
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    I hate to say this, but I feel like this will die like DVA-AUDIO -- at least MLP (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_Lossless_Packing) found another home in compressing multichannel HD movie audio. Maybe MQA will be its replacement in that format? It seems to be well structured to provide for better reproduction of audio in space (air).

    In order for this to fully work, the content providers need to fully adopt MQA and educate everyone, which can be difficult. I mean, look how long the AS article took to explain the technology.

    The only cases where I see MQA actually improving things are in the case of non-digital masters and new masters created in MQA. But here's where everyone is going to be confused. If a studio reencodes their PCM masters with MQA the little light will show up saying it's MQA. In reality it's just reencoded PCM. And it's actually bizarro world where audiophiles really are looking for analog masters (or new MQA masters), not the digital reencodes. Further, in this case MQA creators are making a lot of work for nothing when all they really need to do is handle all their encoding wizardry in the DAC and not make studios (and owners of CD's, etc.) re-encode all their files (which it supposedly does to some extent, but not as well if the original master were remastered in MQA for some strange reason -- enlighten me please as I don't get this part, maybe it's a processing power issue).

    Don't get me wrong, I want a better option than PCM/DSD that is a digital format. MQA does promise a real analog-like sound from digital in some cases, just not all.

    Quote Originally Posted by wklie View Post
    That's life. And it's even worse for AV amplifier: Dolby Digital, DTS, TrueHD, DTS-HDMA, Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, and different HDMI versions and HDCP versions. My huge collection of DVD is already obsolete many years ago. Quickly Blu-ray will become obsolete by the new 4K Ultra Blu-ray.
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    I read all the responses here and it appears that hardly anyone took the time to actually read all of the questions and answers in the ComputerAudiophile link. Many of the concerns brought up here are addressed in the Q&A. I was just trying to lead you to the water, you don't have to drink the Kool-Aid.

    It isn't like Mike and I are sold on MQA yet. The demo's I heard was a mixed bag of the best sound I have ever heard to other tracks that were ho-hum. (I think that is Mike's position too) I will have my 808 updated to v6 when I go on vacation next month. I hope there will be new MQA content released soon but that problem already exists with the crappy Hi-Rez and DSD offerings we plow through. As someone has posted new content would be a nice start and not just regurgitating back catalogs again.
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Agreed Jim. You nailed it. The Elvis, Frank Sinatra and an assortment of other albums were amazing. A few other were ho-hum. But what we have is a very promising new format. We should be cheering them on and getting behind the movement for better digital sound.


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    Re: MQA Discussion

    I have read the Q&A. It sounds a lot like a politician in that many of the answers are sort of given but an opening in there for a different interpretation. For example, the question about if decoding in both software and hardware were required, or if either one would do the trick on their own. He sort of kind of implied that a software player would do the trick without need of hardware upgrades. In other words, although not expressly stated but it was implied that a software player like Roon would be able to take full advantage of MQA, but then later in his response he sort of kind of back tracked. The Q&A was full of this kind of stuff just like TAS article was.
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    So, I have heard that Roon is compatible. Ok, cool, but is this all that is needed or is this only one part of the equation? Will special DACs also be needed?
    I check the latest status on Roon forum, it appears that the hope for Roon to be able to make a non-MQA DAC to playback at MQA quality is not happening yet:

    Andrew Cox Community: Moderator
    Feb 18


    I appreciate that an absence of news is leading to speculation. There is a blank canvas regarding software decoding and we all want to see it filled.

    The Roon devs are both likely to be bound by non-disclosure agreements and engaged in continuing sensitive commercial negotiations. They have said that they will announce something as soon as they are able to do so. So far they have not announced that arrangements or discussions are at an end.

    Until an announcement can be made, we have no option but to wait.


  28. #28
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Well at least they are looking at it. The point is with the lifetime subscription you would hope and believe that they will work on adding in all new technology ....
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  29. #29
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    "Lifetime Subscription"...ha! Like that means anything. Take a look at what Nest did to Revolv and you can see where greed comes in and replaces marketing speak that can at anytime be changed to suit the creators.

    Another issue pointed out by the potential support of Roon is that MQA is a closed format, so it's not going to be widely adopted or available/supported in those apps/systems that don't license the tech (unless they basically give it away).

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Well at least they are looking at it. The point is with the lifetime subscription you would hope and believe that they will work on adding in all new technology ....
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  30. #30
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Nothing I read anywhere suggests this is anything other than proprietary encoded PCM? Why not make available non-proprietary encoded PCM? How do the labels benefit from having another rights holder in-between them and the consumer?
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  31. #31
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Nothing I read anywhere suggests this is anything other than proprietary encoded PCM? Why not make available non-proprietary encoded PCM? How do the labels benefit from having another rights holder in-between them and the consumer?
    Anyone remember HDCD how did that do. Wow lost my internet connection there. Anyway I wonder how much music will be re configured for MQA, will it be Rock, Jazz, Blues which I happen to enjoy. From what I read from Stuart notes, that's up to the labels. MQA has been on the table for a while now, and only 2 DACs ( Mytek Brooklyn and Meridian Explorer2 ) are certified . And from what I read sure with the Software MQA gives you better than Redbook, but the certified DAC gives you a lot more. For me its a wait a see game. What music is available that I actually enjoy and will the record labels get on board and can there be a software player that can do what a certified dac can do and the listener can get the full benefit of MQA.. I know one thing I'm not going to buy another dac just to listen to a format with few songs available that I enjoy.
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  32. #32
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    HDCD is still around, and at the time it was introduced there was no other hires digital format available to consumers. That is no longer true, and it does seem to me (still, as has been the case from MQA's original announcement) that this is primarily a streaming technology rather than a new, useful format to have for one's own collection. I'm not sure why Bob Stuart mentions selling it on DVD's or Blurays, instead of or in addition to what we have now (except to make Meridian more money at our expense).
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  33. #33
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    HDCD is still around, and at the time it was introduced there was no other hires digital format available to consumers. That is no longer true, and it does seem to me (still, as has been the case from MQA's original announcement) that this is primarily a streaming technology rather than a new, useful format to have for one's own collection. I'm not sure why Bob Stuart mentions selling it on DVD's or Blurays, instead of or in addition to what we have now (except to make Meridian more money at our expense).
    Yep I bought into that HDCD deal when it came out. I have about 8 titles
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  34. #34
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by CPP View Post
    Yep I bought into that HDCD deal when it came out. I have about 8 titles
    You may have more than that. There are hundreds of HDCD's that are not labelled as HDCD and don't utilize Peak Extend. The best sounding Neil Young and Joni Mitchell CD's are HDCD, all Grateful Dead CD's are HDCD, etc.

    Still doesn't answer the MQA question, though...
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  35. #35
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    According to the AS article (pgs. 76-77) regarding new material, MQA can "take the listener one step further back in the chain to the signal before the master recording". RH compared a Peter McGrath original recording in 88.2kHz/24-bit vs. an MQA version, RH states the latter was much better in terms of timbre, dimensionality, differentiating individual instruments, and emotion.

    RH also asked MQA to encode a file containing one of his 1988 DAT recordings (44.1/16-bit), providing the A/D converter information used to make the original recording. RH states his comparison of his original file to the MQA file, the MQA version had improved instrumental timbre, dynamic attack, specific location, air and bloom, resolution, and soundstage dimensionality. Other recording professional testimonials are included in the article.

    Of course the thought crosses my mind this is just another industry manipulation to sell more audio equipment and recordings. And I would certainly prefer my current DAC be upgradeable via firmware rather than buying both new hardware and software.

    But for me to buy into MQA, the process will have to easily demonstrate dramatically improved playback on recordings, demonstrate that other formats (e.g.; PCM) won't piggyback on MQA labeled products such as they have with SACD "DSD", and MQA recordings must become ubiquitous unlike SACD's. And since MQA is proprietary, licensing fees may seriously curtail recording companies from using this process, similar to Sony's DSD fees.

    I bought into the SACD phenomenon and have lots of discs. It reaffirmed the recording and mastering process are more important than the format. While native DSD and hirez PCM recordings arguably have brought sonic improvements, it's a mixed bag.

    Perhaps if MQA is made available to all recording studios and artists, is easy to use, and affordable, I can see it may be successful. Somehow the industry is going to have to demonstrate they're really on-board with creating high quality, high resolution audio recordings. Maybe MQA is the answer, time will tell.
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  36. #36
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    My original question remains unanswered. As per Bob Stuart, MQA is basically a "lossless" (but not really) compression scheme for PCM audio. If it sounds better than a hires PCM audio file, there is something else going on. And since it is not really lossless compression, why can't we get the true lossless PCM files instead??
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  37. #37
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    My original question remains unanswered. As per Bob Stuart, MQA is basically a "lossless" (but not really) compression scheme for PCM audio. If it sounds better than a hires PCM audio file, there is something else going on. And since it is not really lossless compression, why can't we get the true lossless PCM files instead??
    It is a lossless PCM file, but the PCM file has had filters applied to it to correct for imperfections during the recording process. For example, they know if there are flaws with a certain mixing board used or a certain microphone used or an early (crappy) A to D converter and more. The MQA filters can "fix" these flaws for a more perfect recording which they argue more accurately reflects the performance of when it was recorded.

    The best way to think of MQA, is this:

    MQA has two parts: the first part is filters applied to the music to "correct" for recording imperfections or as Meridian calls it, "flaws" (as mentioned above). The second part of MQA is what I call the "zip". Like ZIPPING a bunch of files to send them over the internet, MQA "zips" the music so large lossless files can be transmitted over the internet (streaming via Tidal) and the DAC on the other end "unzips" those files.
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  38. #38
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    2 comments, Mike. First, the original MQA white paper (now gone from their web site, apparently) said the compression scheme did "throw away" audibly unimportant bits, so that the original PCM file can't be reconstructed from the MQA file. Second, my question remains unanswered; why can't we be sold the original PCM file from which the MQA file is made?
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  39. #39

    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    2 comments, Mike. First, the original MQA white paper (now gone from their web site, apparently) said the compression scheme did "throw away" audibly unimportant bits,
    That's true. The argument is that at the sampling frequency being used, there is nothing of musical interest to hear and it's OK if they throw it away.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Second, my question remains unanswered; why can't we be sold the original PCM file from which the MQA file is made?
    Who says you aren't being sold the same file? If you are buying a hi-rez file from a reputable source, it probably is the same file that MQA starts out with before they start their manipulations based on the converters being used in the original recording and tossing out anything that was recorded above their high frequency cut off point.
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  40. #40
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    ...Who says you aren't being sold the same file? If you are buying a hi-rez file from a reputable source, it probably is the same file that MQA starts out with before they start their manipulations based on the converters being used in the original recording and tossing out anything that was recorded above their high frequency cut off point.
    i am making this assumption based on what are now numerous opinions from audio journalists and internet posters that MQA sounds "better". And since as Mike says (also stated by Bob Stuart) the MQA process starts with the filtered PCM file before the compression, that filtered PCM file could also be sold.
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  41. #41

    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    i am making this assumption based on what are now numerous opinions from audio journalists and internet posters that MQA sounds "better". And since as Mike says (also stated by Bob Stuart) the MQA process starts with the filtered PCM file before the compression, that filtered PCM file could also be sold.
    If it truly sounds better, it's because of the MQA jigger pookey and their D/A converters. If you don't believe that MQA files can sound better than the uncompressed hi-rez files, buy the hi-rez files and be happy. If you want to know the truth for yourself, you will need to buy a Meridian MQA D/A converter and download some MQA files for which you have the uncompressed hi rez files.
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  42. #42
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Yes, I agree with the first part. What I want to know is why do we have to assume their lossy compression is inaudible (remember MP3 and OggVorbis?) Why not have the best of both worlds; their filtering algorithm along with lossless compression?
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  43. #43

    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Yes, I agree with the first part. What I want to know is why do we have to assume their lossy compression is inaudible (remember MP3 and OggVorbis?) Why not have the best of both worlds; their filtering algorithm along with lossless compression?
    Because you can't have your cake and eat it too with MQA. You either believe everyone who has listened to MQA and dubbed it the greatest thing since sliced digital white bread is telling you the truth or you don't. The MQA filtering algorithm is based on the fact they are cutting off high frequencies above a certain sampling rate. MQA is being sold as both a better sounding alternative to hi rez digital plus it is streamable without taking up huge amounts of bandwidth. If I gave you a great recipe for a dish that you loved and it contained 3 key ingredients, do you think you could elect to throw out 1 of the 3 key ingredients and expect your version to taste like mine?
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  44. #44
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Then there is a corollary to my question; is cutting off the high-frequencies a positive or a negative? I'd still like to have the option of those filters that are supposed to correct the deficiencies in the original ADC without the lossy compression scheme; wouldn't you, or are you completely non-digital now (as apparently are quite a few posters over at WBF)?
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  45. #45
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    You're somewhat right, but let's be fair. According to what's been revealed about the technology behind MQA, it actually applies better math on the age-old problem of how to create filters in frequency bands and not have it impact phase and rate. Because a lot of smart people have done a lot of math to solve somewhat-germane issues, we have a better understanding of how sound travels not-in-a-vacuum (friction, etc.). Because MQA is an encoding scheme, it can digitize analog signals directly at the recording site. Each track can be digitally woven to the others and gain matched, and we can get a better representation of the analog signal without having to use the standard baseband signal used as a sampling rate, etc. in PCM. (Lots of mumbo-jumbo later)... we get better phase, smaller files because we now don't need to actually capture as much as we did in the past, and we also get a better sound output. So it's another rights holder, middle-man, what-have-you, when it is applied to existing PCM/DSD data and in this case is just a re-encoding of the master though it does give us a new flashy light

    I'm not on one side or the other. I believe that open standards are better for everyone and allow for others to take the baton and run with existing open-rights IP and improve on them in ways that just don't happen in a closed-rights system holding technology. Case-in-point, if FLAC were not an "open-standard", then Bob and Peter wouldn't have been able to store MQA "on top of" regular FLAC files and put MQA encoded files into the FLAC format.

    If Bob Stuart and Peter Craven and his odd company, "Algol Applications, Ltd" have managed to produce something on their own dime that's truly greatness, then this would be great for now. Long-term, it doesn't do much to help the industry build upon the technology they have built. Sure, they will license it and may make it available at super cheap rates in order to get wide adoption, but not just anyone will be permitted to improve on their design other than those they allow.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Nothing I read anywhere suggests this is anything other than proprietary encoded PCM? Why not make available non-proprietary encoded PCM? How do the labels benefit from having another rights holder in-between them and the consumer?
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  46. #46

    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Then there is a corollary to my question; is cutting off the high-frequencies a positive or a negative? I'd still like to have the option of those filters that are supposed to correct the deficiencies in the original ADC without the lossy compression scheme; wouldn't you, or are you completely non-digital now (as apparently are quite a few posters over at WBF)?
    Rob-I don't think the MQA process will work without the lossy compression scheme. You are basically asking for a new variant of their process. And no, I'm not completely non-digital. I still love my DSD files. I would love to review an MQA converter with a hard drive full of MQA files so I could hear what they have wrought.
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  47. #47
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    I wonder how much software exists at this time?
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  48. #48
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    I wonder how much software exists at this time?
    http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/20...-wait-and-see/
    Predictably, 2L offers its entire catalogue as MQA-encoded files; 130ish titles. Over at Onkyo Music we count 12 MQA albums. Yours for 16GBP a pop. Over at 7Digital, a single MQA album by one Amy Duncan (who?). At Technics Tracks we’re offered 15 x MQA albums for credit card purchase.
    And hopefully Tidal in the future.

  49. #49
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    Re: MQA Discussion

    Nice article. Thanks for sharing. There are a lot of companies on that MQA release poster/wall. Looks like DCS is in on this too.

    Quote Originally Posted by wklie View Post
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