MQA Discussion

[lostinla]

Final nail in what?

[radioactive]

If you're referring to Hi-Rez beating out MQA, then sure, it's a possibility. The other issue is that this is bad for Tidal and HDTracks as this is both of those sites combined into one.

Also, no mention if they're going to be compatible with Roon, or if they support MQA.

The final nail?

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...coming-america

There will be several levels of service and we’re planning a soft launch at CEDIA Expo in September and coming full force as the official streaming partner at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest in October.

[Dr Tone]

If you're referring to Hi-Rez beating out MQA, then sure, it's a possibility. The other issue is that this is bad for Tidal and HDTracks as this is both of those sites combined into one.

Also, no mention if they're going to be compatible with Roon, or if they support MQA.

Issue? Qobuz purchasing price for HD content when on Sublime+ will be closer to MP3 prices not the rather expensive HDTracks pricing.

Danny from Roon mentioned yesterday on their forums that they are currently talking to Qobuz. In the link above Qobuz takes a shot at MQA saying no special hardware required and fully unfolded, you can read between the lines.

[Mike]

https://youtu.be/drv9ESli5yI


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mike]

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/21/62131...over-the-years

[nicoff]

Oppo just released a firmware upgrade for the Oppo 205 that allows the 205 to fully decode MQA. And it is free!

[CPP]

Oppo just released a firmware upgrade for the Oppo 205 that allows the 205 to fully decode MQA. And it is free!

That actually took place back in Nov of last year and yep free. . Oppo UDP-205

[nicoff]

That actually took place back in Nov of last year. Oppo UDP-205

The upgrade from last year allowed you to play physical MQA discs or MQA digital files. It did not allow you to do the full decode of streamed files like those from Tidal. The latest firmware (released on 6/29/18) now allows you to do that.

[Jack]

Chris

This was a new more comprehensive update for the USB input dated 6/29.

[CPP]

Chris

This was a new more comprehensive update for the USB input dated 6/29.

I see, Hey thanks for the information , thats really good news.

[CPP]

I see, Hey thanks for the information , thats really good news.

I didn't know this but you can now stream Tidal MQA from a computer connected into the USB DAC. Now that is pretty cool for the 205. I just wish they would have opened up streaming via Tidal internally to the 205 like my 105 will do.

What I got from OPPO today after nic and Jack provided the info.



Chris,


The player can now decode MQA via the USB DAC input. You will be able to stream Tidal MQA from a computer connected into the USB DAC.



Best Regards,

Customer Service
OPPO Digital, Inc.
162 Constitution Dr.
Menlo Park, CA 94025

[rbbert]

I think the Tidal app woud do you no good if you want MQA? Other than by using Roon, I think you still need to use the Tidal desktop (i.e., computer) app to get MQA?

[nicoff]

Say you have a computer connected to the Oppo 205’s USB Audio input. If you run Tidal in the computer and send the Tidal MQA output via that USB connection, then the Oppo 205 will do a full MQA decode.

You have to be connected to the Oppo via the USB Audio connector for it to decode the Tidal MQA track.

[Al M.]

EXOGAL Audio announced that they are ceasing development of MQA for inclusion in EXOGAL products.

June 22, 2018. Said Jeff Haagenstad, CEO of EXOGAL: "We have been evaluating MQA technology and watching the wider MQA ecosystem since early 2016. After much research on the fundamental technology and more importantly on the market demand for MQA, we have reached the decision to cease the pursuit of adding MQA to our products for several reasons:

• Our products by themselves exceed the performance of our products with the inclusion of MQA,
• Regardless of the breathless hype by the audio press, actual consumer demand is just not there.
• Regardless of the announced support from record labels, a suitable base of playable content is not widely available.
• As for the technical details of our evaluation of the technology vis á vis our own technology, we prefer not to violate our NDA’s with MQA and Meridian.
• Much like Wadia's technology before us, EXOGAL technology is already oriented in the time domain and does not suffer from the time-smearing effect which MQA is supposed to eliminate.

Suffice it to say we were never able to achieve the advertised level of performance using the MQA technology and thus it does not meet our standards for inclusion in our products. Many experts outside of our company have articulately made the case against MQA and we see no reason to elaborate or comment on those findings."


“We will continue to watch the market evolve but for now, we are out of the MQA game.”

Link:
https://positive-feedback.com/indust...a-development/

[asindc]

• Regardless of the announced support from record labels, a suitable base of playable content is not widely available.

I find the above statement curious considering that Exogal’s DACs have DSD capability. I wonder if Exogal will reconsider if MGA content approaches the level of DSD content in the marketplace.

[still-one]

I find the above statement curious considering that Exogal’s DACs have DSD capability. I wonder if Exogal will reconsider if MGA content approaches the level of DSD content in the marketplace.

If the database at DSD-Guide is accurate, there are already more MQA albums available than DSD. So I doubt that will have any impact on Exogal's decisions. Then again who cares what Exogal does when the arguably the two best DAC manufacturers (MSB and dCS) are all in.

[BlueFox]

The EXOGAL press release sounded more like an excuse to cover their inability to successfully implement MQA. Just like Berkley's excuse for not implementing DSD.

[asindc]

If the database at DSD-Guide is accurate, there are already more MQA albums available than DSD. So I doubt that will have any impact on Exogal's decisions. Then again who cares what Exogal does when the arguably the two best DAC manufacturers (MSB and dCS) are all in.

As well as Berkeley. I agree, which made that particular statement curious to me. I’d like to hear them elaborate on that.

[asindc]

The EXOGAL press release sounded more like an excuse to cover their inability to successfully implement MQA. Just like Berkley's excuse for not implementing DSD.

To be fair to Berkeley, no one (aside from maybe dCS and MSB) has successfully implemented DSD and PCM in the same DAC without compromising the sound quality and/or usability of one if not both.

[Mike]

https://youtu.be/-EWUiqW5hcM?list=PL...rVvQi7-dW7gm9o


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mike]

The latest list:

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/MQA...SecrlDPnCCIx_Q


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Al M.]

The latest list:

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/MQA...SecrlDPnCCIx_Q


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

10,432 titles in 2017, 832 in 2018 thus far. I sense a trend here...

[BlueFox]

To be fair to Berkeley, no one (aside from maybe dCS and MSB) has successfully implemented DSD and PCM in the same DAC without compromising the sound quality and/or usability of one if not both.

Can't really argue that point since I only have an opinion, but my Lumin certainly seems to do a good job with both. Whether one would be better if the other wasn't implemented will have to remain one of life's mysteries.

[mdp632]

If the database at DSD-Guide is accurate, there are already more MQA albums available than DSD. So I doubt that will have any impact on Exogal's decisions. Then again who cares what Exogal does when the arguably the two best DAC manufacturers (MSB and dCS) are all in.

Exactly. All the big DAC manufactures support and have announced support for MQA. EMM Labs even has support coming but, hasn't formally announced it yet.

The only big name DAC/Digital company that doesn't support it is Playback Designs. More so, that has probably something to with the SACD/DSD and DVD-Audio wars of back then.

I believe Bob Stuart and Meridian pushed DVD-Audio when SACD was trying to take off. But, we have even Sony supporting MQA on small portable players and other Japanese brands (TEAC/Esoteric) are now on board with MQA.

[Mike]

https://www.essential.com/audio?utm_...JpnGsValS2xG6S


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AJ Soundfield]

Won't it prevent the phone from ringing???

[Al M.]

Exactly. All the big DAC manufactures support and have announced support for MQA. EMM Labs even has support coming but, hasn't formally announced it yet.

The only big name DAC/Digital company that doesn't support it is Playback Designs. More so, that has probably something to with the SACD/DSD and DVD-Audio wars of back then.

I believe Bob Stuart and Meridian pushed DVD-Audio when SACD was trying to take off. But, we have even Sony supporting MQA on small portable players and other Japanese brands (TEAC/Esoteric) are now on board with MQA.

Schiit also does not support MQA, for good reasons:

http://www.schiit.com/news/news/why-...supporting-mqa

Of course you may think Schiit is not a big name DAC/Digital company. Think twice: It certainly is big. Last year they sold 65,000 units of equipment, much of it DACs. That's much more than MSB or dCS sell, for sure.

Oh, and Linn doesn't support MQA either:

https://www.linn.co.uk/blog/mqa-is-bad-for-music

[GSOphile]

Ayre?

[still-one]

Schiit also does not support MQA, for good reasons:

http://www.schiit.com/news/news/why-...supporting-mqa

Of course you may think Schiit is not a big name DAC/Digital company. Think twice: It certainly is big. Last year they sold 65,000 units of equipment, much of it DACs. That's much more than MSB or dCS sell, for sure.

Oh, and Linn doesn't support MQA either:

https://www.linn.co.uk/blog/mqa-is-bad-for-music

And Bose sells more than Magico and Wilson.

[Mike]

And Bose sells more than Magico and Wilson.

LOL.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[UltraFast69]

Schiit also does not support MQA, for good reasons:

http://www.schiit.com/news/news/why-...supporting-mqa

Of course you may think Schiit is not a big name DAC/Digital company. Think twice: It certainly is big. Last year they sold 65,000 units of equipment, much of it DACs. That's much more than MSB or dCS sell, for sure.

Oh, and Linn doesn't support MQA either:

https://www.linn.co.uk/blog/mqa-is-bad-for-music

If 65K is true, than I am thinking they are over $100MM - seems a little big for Audio


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Jack]

The majority of the units sold by Schitt are well under $1k so I doubt their total sales figures are anywhere near that high. The Yiggy is the highest price piece they sell.

[Al M.]

The majority of the units sold by Schitt are well under $1k so I doubt their total sales figures are anywhere near that high. The Yiggy is the highest price piece they sell.

Yes, they sell tons of $ 100 DACs for example. I assume their revenue is more in the $ 10 to 15 million range. But they're still growing.

[Mike]

http://musically.com/2018/07/24/mqa-...tor=MusicREDEF


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MarinJim]

And the friggin biggest mystery to me is why Porshe teamed up with Bose in my 911. I am on the fence with MQA. It will not make lemonade out of lemons though.

[asindc]

And the friggin biggest mystery to me is why Porshe teamed up with Bose in my 911. I am on the fence with MQA. It will not make lemonade out of lemons though.

To induce you to upgrade to the Burmester, of course.

[rbbert]

To induce you to upgrade to the Burmester, of course.

Although from many Internet comments, there is minimal difference in the sound; supposedly the electronics are the same, only the speakers different, and except for the tweeters not that different. There are some owners who report a worthwhile and relatively inexpensive improvement replacing the Bose tweeters with the Burmester ones

[CPP]

Although from many Internet comments, there is minimal difference in the sound; supposedly the electronics are the same, only the speakers different, and except for the tweeters not that different. There are some owners who report a worthwhile and relatively inexpensive improvement replacing the Bose tweeters with the Burmester ones

I look at it this way. When purchasing a Porsche that has the $4,000 upgrade to the Burmester Surround Sound-System from a Bose I say, hell I'm paying over $100k for this car, why not.

[still-one]

I look at it this way. When purchasing a Porsche that has the $4,000 upgrade to the Burmester Surround Sound-System from a Bose I say, hell I'm paying over $100k for this car, why not.

As I never listen to music in my car. No need to upgrade the stereo just for news radio, NPR or sports radio.

[CPP]

As I never listen to music in my car. No need to upgrade the stereo just for news radio, NPR or sports radio.

Who listens to depressing news or sports radio in a car. I just listen to music on long drives.

[Kingrex]

I can't read 144 pages. Did this get resolved? Hahaaaa

Hey Mike, you should post a couple Quick poles. MQA yes or no. Upsample, yes or no. Maybe a spot to enter the digital setup with the answer. Might be interesting to see if there are trends to equipment and what people think sounds good on it.

[MarinJim]

Who listens to depressing news or sports radio in a car. I just listen to music on long drives.

I love to listen to music when I drive my 997 CS, and my 540i (full custom Focal K2 set-up and 2,000 blissful watts). My music tase is very different from my cars to my a/v room. The former is "let's rock on!" to the latter which is more jazz to Americana.

[nicoff]

I love to listen to music when I drive my 997 CS, and my 540i (full custom Focal K2 set-up and 2,000 blissful watts). My music tase is very different from my cars to my a/v room. The former is "let's rock on!" to the latter which is more jazz to Americana.

P-cars for years were not known for being very advanced from the standpoint of audio systems. I recall having to use a very old iPod stuck in the glove compartment to listen to not very good quality music. I bet that the BMW has a much better sound system.

[MarinJim]

They are both custom install now. If I have a $85K car, I better have a commensurate audio system.

[Kingrex]

You have to spend quite a few thousand to get the premium sound in any good car. But more important in my mind is not how good is tthe stereo, how damped is the tire hum off the road.

[CPP]

You have to spend quite a few thousand to get the premium sound in any good car. But more important in my mind is not how good is tthe stereo, how damped is the tire hum off the road.

Not sure I will be listening to music while driving off a hard road and while driving off the road, you are not going to hear the tire hum anyway. . I'm usually more worried about the sand, rocks, getting stuck, trees etcc. than listening to music . Maybe you meant something else. Like tire hum ON the paved road.

[wklie]

https://www.stereophile.com/content/...-ad-conversion

[Mike]

https://www.stereophile.com/content/...-ad-conversion

Thanks for posting. Here is a summary someone wrote on the article:

“Timing is of the essence.

The digitization process results in a mirror image with an inverted sideband beyond the Nyquist point.

This 'negative' image must be filtered out from the reconstructed analog form. Even if it is well beyond the sonic range of human perception.

Having a sampling rate of 44.1KHz limits the waveform maximum frequency to be recorded to half the sampling rate which corresponds to 22.05 KHz maximum.

Way before that point, the ultrasonic sidebands must be filtered out.

Having such a steep 'brickwall' filter causes aberrations to the signal. These are termed ringing or echoes before and after the cutoff point.

Natural echoes occur after a signal. However when converted back from digital to analog via the Digital to Analog Converter (DAC) these ringing echoes also occur symmetrically before the moment the signal pulse happens. This causes a coloration to the reconstructed sound.

This phenomenon can me mitigated by sampling at higher frequencies thus requiring a much 'better sounding' gentle filter for the ultrasonic frequencies components.

Thus timing is everything, in the Universe and also audio.

Takeaway: higher sampling rates sound better, due to the shifting of this Nyquist number way above human hearing bandwidth thus requiring less brickwall filters with a gentler slope to achieve the same results, with better (or less perceptible) audible ringing artifacts.

Excerpt:
In natural sound, echoes always occur after a sound—never before. This pre-echo is therefore unnatural; and while a continuous waveform will be reconstructed correctly, it is possible that the pre-echo might well be heard as a degradation with a discontinuous waveform, such as musical transients (see later).”

[rbbert]

The end of the article (discussing playback of files encoded with the Ayre ADC) would seem to indicate that as far as sound quality alone is concerned, MQA is unnecessary; correct timing can be preserved through the recording chain without its compression or proprietary processing.

[Mike]

The end of the article (discussing playback of files encoded with the Ayre ADC) would seem to indicate that as far as sound quality alone is concerned, MQA is unnecessary; correct timing can be preserved through the recording chain without its compression or proprietary processing.

Correct, but it wasn’t being done effectively until MQA came along.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk