Disappointing Harbeth 30.1 !

[Jerome W]

This kind of reminds me of your thread about your Devore super 8's.

Anyhow, nice to see you have moved to speakers that should be more appropriate for you Shindo amps. I look forward to seeing photos of the Altecs.




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Just to refresh your memory : The Devore Super 8's are not for any room. I tried them in 7 or 8 different rooms.
They loved only 2 of them. And they love SS power a lot. Some tube amps work, but they are hard to find. They sound great with my MC225 and my MAC1500. Both are push pulls of 7591's. But they sound terrific with the Nagra MSA or the McIntosh 2205. But not in all rooms !

[Mike]

What speakers are these? They look home made.


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[Jerome W]

What speakers are these? They look home made.


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They are home made Mike.

[Jerome W]

[Mike]

They are home made Mike.

Wasn't sure if they were some early Devore's.


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[Jerome W]

Wasn't sure if they were some early Devore's.


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Devore does not use any Altec driver Mike.

[Cucumber_jones]

Wasn't sure if they were some early Devore's.


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Ha ha!

[Cucumber_jones]

Jerome. I suspect these sound far better with you shindo then any other speakers you have used. Tell us how they sound. Let's see a photo of the crossover.

Now time for some A23 cables

[Cucumber_jones]

Is that white thing on your table a sex toy?

[Cucumber_jones]

Just to refresh your memory : The Devore Super 8's are not for any room. I tried them in 7 or 8 different rooms.
They loved only 2 of them. And they love SS power a lot. Some tube amps work, but they are hard to find. They sound great with my MC225 and my MAC1500. Both are push pulls of 7591's. But they sound terrific with the Nagra MSA or the McIntosh 2205. But not in all rooms !

The super 8's sounded great at my place with my shindo gear. When I had them. For what they are and the price they have a lot going for them.

[Jerome W]

Jerome. I suspect these sound far better with you shindo then any other speakers you have used. Tell us how they sound. Let's see a photo of the crossover.

Now time for some A23 cables

No matter the amps used Chris, and I already tried 4 different amps, these speakers are just the best ones I ever had.

[Jerome W]

Filter is very simple but with top notch components.

[Jerome W]

The super 8's sounded great at my place with my shindo gear. When I had them. For what they are and the price they have a lot going for them.

They sounded fine with my Shindo's too.

[Jerome W]

Is that white thing on your table a sex toy?

No. It is an automatic laser player for cats. Well, sex toy for cats indeed !

[Cucumber_jones]

And how do they sound? I just bought some altec 604e in 612 studio monitor cabinets. They are fun speakers.

[Jerome W]

And how do they sound? I just bought some altec 604e in 612 studio monitor cabinets. They are fun speakers.

They sound really beautiful. I never felt in love with the 604 driver. I think that it is extremely complicated to set up correctly but I will have to hear Shindo's 604.
My 414 / 807 / W32A sound is just terrific. Extremely detailed and transparent, fast and with rich and saturated timbres. The bass is just the best one I ever heard. Very close to the 416 one in well made VOTT or 19 but actually I find the 414 to have more presence and texture. Of course, a 416 in a great cabinet and great filter will be better but I still have to find one and honestly I do not need an other bass than the one I get now. The mids and treble are very natural. The timbres are just perfect.
Opposite to the 40.1 that tend to sound "nice" with everything, the Altecs do not forgive anything and some recordings sound less than stellar. But still enjoyable with the Shindo gear.
The 414, 416, 604 do not go as low as the 30cm woofer of the 40.1. But what they do is much much better. The cello and double bass are just in the room in front of us with exceptional accuracy and visibility. As I said, there is no better bass in the world imho than the Altec one.

[Cucumber_jones]

So high eff speakers are much more suitable for Shindo amps. Like we suggested to you a long while back.


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[Mike]

So high eff speakers are much more suitable for Shindo amps. Like we suggested to you a long while back.


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[Jerome W]

So high eff speakers are much more suitable for Shindo amps. Like we suggested to you a long while back.


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Chris,

I always knew that. I just said that the CCQs are able to drive a much wider range of speakers. Actually, they truly shine with "tough" loads even if it is not what Mr. Shindo ( RIP) had in mind when he designed them.
On the Altecs, I do prefer the CCQs over the other amps ( Nagra MSA and McIntosh MC225. ) but the difference is not as large as when you put them on tough loads. I will be very curious to hear the Altecs through my 300B XLS ( Emission Labs XL 300B's ) SET amp ( 2 x 20W). But my guess is that the Altec love power too. Although they can be driven with tiny amps.
I used the CCQs with my Wilson Watt Puppy 8's.
They were my best amps with those speakers. Much better than my MC2301 monsters.
I used them with the Harbeth 40.1. They were the amps that gave the best bass out of the speakers.
I was in contact with a guy in the center of France who owns the CCQs among many other Shindos. He uses them to drive the bass units of the huge Goldmund Apologue Anniversary.

They do that "much better" than the Goldmund huge Telos 600 monoblocks !
You know sometimes we do things that happen to have a much wider effect than we thought.
I think modestly that the CCQs go way beyond what Mr. Shindo (RIP) could have imagine.

But I am very happy that I switched to Altec. Those speakers are magical. It is really a pity that the original company goals did not survive the modern era and prefered to build crappy computer speakers. Like if Rolex was starting to build Swatches and stop the Oysters.

[Kuoppis]

It is for sure possible to use low output tube amps to power a lot of things and it might render excellent results. But then, deducting a general rule that it always is the case, might be a stretch. And I am not saying you are doing that.

But what can however be observed frequently, is that lack of amplification power can lead to a boomy bass. This could also have been the case in your 30.1 test.


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[Jerome W]

It is for sure possible to use low output tube amps to power a lot of things and it might render excellent results. But then, deducting a general rule that it always is the case, might be a stretch. And I am not saying you are doing that.

But what can however be observed frequently, is that lack of amplification power can lead to a boomy bass. This could also have been the case in your 30.1 test.


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No that was not the case.
Because this 300B amp gives a fabulous bass with the 40.1 that are much more difficult. And I got the same bass with the Nagra MSA amp. 2 x 60W.

[Kuoppis]

2 x 60w is a low powered amp.


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[magoo]

2 x 60w is a low powered amp.


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I don't tend to take much of what Alan Shaw says very seriously (amps do sound different & stands really do matter imho), but the recommendations for the M30.1's suggest 25w upwards. His own choice of amp is a SS Quad putting out 50w, and one of the most popular combinations in the UK is a Croft 7R @ about 45w. 60w with Harbeths is plenty, unless you happen to live in a castle and have a penchant for headbanging.

It's a moot point as Jerome has moved along anyhow, but I'll say it again......Get the support right, which means rigid but open stands (Joe's earlier in this thread look the ticket) and the speakers will sound coherent through the audio spectrum, get this wrong and the upper bass will bleed into the lower mids, and you get a muddied sound. I can hear this quite clearly on amps from 28w right up to the Accuphase's 180w. It's really that simple.

[Kuoppis]

I don't tend to take much of what Alan Shaw says very seriously (amps do sound different & stands really do matter imho), but the recommendations for the M30.1's suggest 25w upwards. His own choice of amp is a SS Quad putting out 50w, and one of the most popular combinations in the UK is a Croft 7R @ about 45w. 60w with Harbeths is plenty, unless you happen to live in a castle and have a penchant for headbanging.

Yeah well, loud and good might be two different things.

In my main set I do have Magicos with a minimum amp power recommendation of 50 wpc. However, anyone owning Magicos knows that they love power, the more the merrier. I am running them with an Ayre poweramp with 350 wpc at their 4 Ohm impedance and do not think that is an inkling too much.

My P3ESRs I also run with a 90 wpc SS amp and think they need that. But it really comes down to personal preference.

Further, as we know, tube watts and SS watts do not deliver the same efficiency, those are really two different things. Then there is the whole different story about the tonality of either one, only amplified by the additional choice of tube rolling. So I guess it is as much about good gear match as you point out, or even more, than mere technical specs. Where does that leave us regarding amp output power recommendations?

Finally, the reason for partaking in the conversation is to share the endeavors of fellow audio crazies, not to be right or wrong. My two cents or (even less) was just based on personal experience pairing an excellent and powerful tube amp (Ayon Spirit III) with excellent speakers (Dynaudio Confidence C2) - according to specs a wonderful pairing - just to discover the combo was entirely unlistenable (played loud though). Experimenting further I discovered the Dyns simply needed more juice.


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[Jerome W]

The bass I got from the 30.1 is not boomy. It is bumpy around 80 Hz. Very different.
Like if the speaker was telling you all the time : look how big I am ! The story of the frog who tries to look like a beef.
Big and natural speakers give bass when it is on the recording. Not all the time.
BTW, I think I know how to decouple Harbeth speakers.
Modestly.
Ask Vladek at PAB. He never had a customer like me. Lol !