Tube Rolling Update in latest balanced Golden Gate...

**La Dolce Vita** · November 30, 2015, 04:51 PM

Lampizator tube rolling update...

Over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend I removed the quad of EML Anniversary Globe tubes from my balanced GG and put in a quad of EML 300B Mesh. I recall trying 2 of these a long time ago in the Big 7 I had then... Too bright!! This I remember well. Now, with a quad installed I loved the detail (reminded me a lot of the Psvane 101D) but overall they are still too bright. Sound great but bright...

Then I got to thinking... Why not try the quad of Psvane WE 101D? So I put them in the GG...

Before doing so I'd popped the EML Anniversary Globe 45's back into the GG... Even with a quick listen I could hear the edginess was gone and the weight was back... Overall a better sound... These are still my favorites and remain so...

Now...regarding the 101D's...

I listened to these for 4 hours or so over 2 days... So glad I took the time to put them back in and give them a go... Here's the bottom line... they are too much of a good thing...well...in general...

I will be using them more often now when I want to listen to piano, sax, etc. My ears would probably bleed if listening to violin, vocals... hyper detailed as we all know well... but WOW! Incredible for piano...

Some of my notes during the listening sessions:

Heard the saxophone sound out in a few tracks...OMG! Amazing... So lifelike it is creepy. Piano is the same... Some of the best sounding... BUT... Listening for a while I find myself tensing up...it's not a relaxed sound...again...amazing tubes and I'm going to leave them in for bit... Will actually start to listen to them more now...

So... while I thoroughly enjoyed the Psvane 101D's with certain tracks...I've drawn the conclusion that they simply play too "hot" to really relax and enjoy the music...the EML Globe Anniversary 45's strike the right chord... The 101D's did catch my attention and will get more use now - with the piano and sax tracks...but to my ears they cannot be left in for a "set it and forget it" application...

Reflecting on the experience the EML 300B Mesh and the Psvane Replica WE 101D's sounded and behaved essentially the same...

Hope this helps you all...

Andy

**La Dolce Vita** · November 30, 2015, 04:56 PM

One more thing to mention...

Rectifier of choice for me is the Western Electric 274B. Massive soundstage and sounds great. BUT... I also played briefly with a 378 tube - slightly weightier and rich but bordered on collapsing a few times during challenging intensive passages... Still love the Western Electric 274B... nothing I've heard yet quite tops it. I've heard Shawn Fox found a rectifier tube he loves and feels it beats out the WE 274B... Only thing close in my opinion is the WE 422A but its soundstage is a bit more narrow/restricted in my opinion...

**bonzo** · November 30, 2015, 06:38 PM

Which is the tube Shawn found?

**dminches** · November 30, 2015, 06:58 PM

STC (footscray factory) 5R4GY

**dminches** · November 30, 2015, 06:59 PM

I have tried both the WE 422 and the STC (footscray) 5R4GY. I have a Takatsuki 274B on its way from Japan.

**bonzo** · November 30, 2015, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by dminches

I have tried both the WE 422 and the STC (footscray) 5R4GY. I have a Takatsuki 274B on its way from Japan.

Which did you prefer

**dminches** · November 30, 2015, 07:07 PM

First, I should have said that I have an unbalanced Big 7. Second, I have been using 2 WE 275As. So far I prefer the WE422. The 5R4GY is close. A metal base GZ34 is a distant 3rd.

**La Dolce Vita** · November 30, 2015, 07:37 PM

Thanks for chiming in...yes you are correct. Shawn prefers the Footscray... I have 2 422A's - these are great tubes...the WE 274B does however offer a wider soundstage. Please do let me know how you rate the Takasuki 274B... Thank you!

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**dminches** · November 30, 2015, 07:44 PM

At some point I'd like to get a WE 274B. Looks like they are close to $1k each.

**La Dolce Vita** · November 30, 2015, 07:49 PM

Yes... I paid $875 or so for my last one. Not worth spending $1300-$1700 on an etched base earlier version. Have one of those too. They sound pretty much the same...

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**dminches** · November 30, 2015, 08:06 PM

Ebay, I assume?

**La Dolce Vita** · November 30, 2015, 08:30 PM

Yes. This said you can find these through tube dealers as well...

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**mep** · November 30, 2015, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by La Dolce Vita

One more thing to mention...

Rectifier of choice for me is the Western Electric 274B. Massive soundstage and sounds great. BUT... I also played briefly with a 378 tube - slightly weightier and rich but bordered on collapsing a few times during challenging intensive passages... Still love the Western Electric 274B... nothing I've heard yet quite tops it. I've heard Shawn Fox found a rectifier tube he loves and feels it beats out the WE 274B... Only thing close in my opinion is the WE 422A but its soundstage is a bit more narrow/restricted in my opinion...

That's commonly known as rectifier sag.

**La Dolce Vita** · November 30, 2015, 08:36 PM

Thank you...wasn't familiar with that term but sure...ok!

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**dminches** · November 30, 2015, 11:57 PM

What is the difference between the WE 274A and 274B?

**La Dolce Vita** · December 1, 2015, 08:09 AM

So far as I know...same tube with the exception of the socket pins... 274A I believe has 4...

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**dminches** · December 1, 2015, 09:53 AM

Thanks. Hopefully I will find one for less than $1000.

**sfox7076** · December 2, 2015, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by dminches

Thanks. Hopefully I will find one for less than $1000.

I prefer the 275A/5R4GY combo. For my WE 300Bs, I prefer the 422A/274B I have. The 5R4GY just cleaned up a bit of compression I perceived in the music. Then, swapping to the 300Bs, it was not a good thing. Too analytic. I much preferred the 274B. The 422A was hit and miss in my Big 7. I think the 3 amp draw was causing some issues for the power supply, but I am not sure why. Regardless, I have a huge stable of rectifiers and get to play with them to find the balance. The 3 Footscray 5R4GYs I have are identical and all were made in the same month. They are a few months different than Dave's, but not much different. I currently have 3 274Bs, 3 422As, 3 Footscray 5R4GYs. They should outlive my ears.

On a side note, the 274A is indeed the same as the 274B except for pin out. It would take about 20 minutes to make an adapter (I just made 4 adapters to use on a 6L6 amp). Pretty easy. Just don't mess up the pin out. Heh. 274A is a bit older (they stopped making it around 1960), so you are more likely to see the engraved base versions of those.

Shawn

**bonzo** · December 2, 2015, 07:06 PM

Are there a lot of differences between the different 422as and the 274bs?

**sfox7076** · December 2, 2015, 07:22 PM

I got one of the 422As today, so I don't know, but I heard no real difference between the black plate and the gray plates. There is no discernable difference among the 274Bs. They are, however, only about a year apart if I recall right. The NOS pair of 274Bs have only been used about an hour each. I don't want to use them... Between the two, I like the 274B better. Is there a huge difference, no. Is there a difference? Yes. Wider soundstage in the 274b, more articulated mids, maybe a touch less bass than the 422A. I note Dave can explain what he likes better/worse between the 422A and the 5R4GY.

**La Dolce Vita** · December 2, 2015, 07:58 PM

I agree 100% with Shawn regarding the WE 274B compared to 422As...

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**Mike Lavigne** · December 3, 2015, 01:36 PM

Tuesday I received a new pair of Elrog ER300b's and inserted them into the Golden Gate. my GG is single ended.

I own the Psvane 101d WE replicas, the Psvane 300b WE replicas, the KR242's, and the National Union 45's. the KR242's won't work as they overdrive the circuit. all the rest are pretty good if different. I suppose overall I prefer the National Union 45's.

but these Elrogs are the 'bomb'.

Very very sexy sounding. they have that mid-range fire and sparkle, along with a seemingly lower noise floor and micro-dynamic energy which makes the music more real and engaging. Very nice bass decay and soundstage space and overall presence. It has a lovely texture and nuance.

This is the magic I have been waiting to hear. I love it. and I love them on all types of music. everything is just more real sounding. the separation and organic 3d of the soundstage just pulls me in. the tone is to die for, but there is little rounding or blunting that seems to typically come with that. musical energy just projects. exceptional delicacy and shading.

It’s a bit colored in some ways and not as clean and perfectly behaved as the Trinity….but who cares!!!

Seems to work well with my 1944 RCA 5R4GY ‘WE 274b type’ rectifier. I’ve not yet tried it with my EML 274b yet.

I've been warned that these Elrogs fail, or more properly, previous versions had a high failure rate. I must point out that the dealer has stood behind those failed tubes. so I want to make sure I post that for people to do their own investigations and decide what's best for them. I read thru the thread on Audiogon about this and am satisfied. I spoke to George Lenz of TubesUSA and am comfortable with going with these.

after 2 days of listening I just love how these tubes make the music so much more involving.

**La Dolce Vita** · December 3, 2015, 03:15 PM

Elrog's are great in the GG. Only thing better I am told is the Western Electric 300B...

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**Mike** · December 3, 2015, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by La Dolce Vita

Elrog's are great in the GG. Only thing better I am told is the Western Electric 300B...

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Yes indeed!

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**dminches** · December 3, 2015, 09:23 PM

I just received my Takatsuki 274B. Beautiful tube. Not sure how long it will take to break in but I will give it a work out this weekend.

**La Dolce Vita** · December 3, 2015, 11:45 PM

Oh wow! Please do let me know what you think of it... I was contemplating ordering one as well

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**wisnon** · December 4, 2015, 07:16 AM

More Takatsuki recti talk here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php...574#msg1477574

**Mike Lavigne** · December 4, 2015, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by wisnon

More Takatsuki recti talk here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php...574#msg1477574

ok, you pushed me over. I ordered the Tak 274b recti today. so i'll have me some Elrog-Tak GG soon.

Norman, I have a drawer full of tubes thanks to you! I describe as you my 'drug dealer' to my wife, along with the guy who sells me grey market master tapes. you've arrived!!!

**dminches** · December 5, 2015, 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

along with the guy who sells me grey market master tapes.

What type of tapes, pray tell? I assume we are talking 15 ips R2R?

**Mike Lavigne** · December 5, 2015, 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by dminches

What type of tapes, pray tell? I assume we are talking 15 ips R2R?

yes; 15ips, 1/4" master dubs. think of all time great pop/rock titles of your dreams. those kind of tapes. the kind you just have to buy.

**wisnon** · December 5, 2015, 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

ok, you pushed me over. I ordered the Tak 274b recti today. so i'll have me some Elrog-Tak GG soon.

Norman, I have a drawer full of tubes thanks to you! I describe as you my 'drug dealer' to my wife, along with the guy who sells me grey market master tapes. you've arrived!!!

You got off easy with just a drawer. AL has 5 boxes full, I have 2 and God knows how many Mike has…as for Andy and Shawn they are terminal. LoL

**sfox7076** · December 11, 2015, 11:10 AM

I have a lot of tubes, yet. Just bought a guys WE collection. That said, I have recently got rid of some of my lesser tubes. That said, yes, I still have tons of tubes. Thankfully not all for the lampi. OK, I have too many rectifiers. I have been interested in the TAK 274B, but cannot spend the cash when the WE is almost the same price.

Shawn

**wisnon** · December 11, 2015, 11:54 AM

LoL

Shawn, I get it....

**La Dolce Vita** · December 11, 2015, 02:18 PM

I've been on the fence about the Takasuki 274B. Dying to hear it in my Golden Gate but not wanting to spend the $ when I already have 2 WE 422A and WE 274B...

I am going to cross my fingers, hope they don't crap out on me and give the Elrog 300B's another go in the Lampi paired with my WE 274B. I think this will be spectacular but won't know until I hear it. Should be...

Last weekend I put in a quad of Psvane Replica 101D and paired them with a Sophia Electric 274B. Very nice combo. The Sophia Electric is a warm 274B and it played well with the fast/detailed 101D's... Still while I'd give it a

Tube Rolling Update in latest balanced Golden Gate...

the WE 274B is more revealing and dynamic - it just needs to be paired with the right signal tubes.

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**Crashem** · February 25, 2016, 12:52 PM

Confirmed that the new EML 45 Mesh Globes are Balanced compatible. Suggested we get a current list of compatible tube types.

Also, had discussion with George (NA Distributor of Elrogs) about the Elrog 300b in Big 7/GG DAC. He is still not recommending it given the past problems. They believe the current on startup of DAC is the problem as it is destroying the filament over time. One change I noted is that he believes it should not be more than 1.2A on startup (change from previous recommendation of below 2A). They are supposedly working on more resilient version but no ETA.

**La Dolce Vita** · February 25, 2016, 01:02 PM

I'm using the EML Anniversary Globes in my balanced GG... With the WE 274B it's the best combo I've heard to date... Won't use the Elrogs in the Lampizator for the reasons you mentioned. Not worth the risk... George is a great guy. Thanks

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**Crashem** · February 25, 2016, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by La Dolce Vita

I'm using the EML Anniversary Globes in my balanced GG... With the WE 274B it's the best combo I've heard to date... Won't use the Elrogs in the Lampizator for the reasons you mentioned. Not worth the risk... George is a great guy. Thanks

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Are you getting the new Lamp EML 45 Mesh Globes as well? Would love to hear a comparison if you are.

Also, have you compared the WE274 with the Takatsuki 274? Still looking for more comparisons between and specifically with the Lampi DACs. Some have argued that the Tak > WE.

**wisnon** · February 25, 2016, 04:32 PM

Ask Mike, he had the orig WE 274b.

Marslo at WBF will soon report back on the new Mesh Globes.

**La Dolce Vita** · February 25, 2016, 04:35 PM

Yes I am getting the new mesh 45 globes as well. Time will tell if they perform at or exceed the level of the 45 anniversary globes. The WE 274B is my destination rectifier tube for the Lampi. I've yet to hear the Takasuki and therefore am not in a position to comment there. Best wishes...

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**wisnon** · February 25, 2016, 04:40 PM

Hi Andy,

What's up?

In Germany at the moment.

**La Dolce Vita** · February 25, 2016, 04:41 PM

Enjoy Norman...

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**wisnon** · February 25, 2016, 04:43 PM

Will do. Hope all is well with the family...

**La Dolce Vita** · February 25, 2016, 06:27 PM

Thank you. Got some good news this week...appreciate you asking...

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**wyan** · February 25, 2016, 11:17 PM

Hi, have you compared the EML 45 globes to RCA UX-245 globes? Thanks.

**La Dolce Vita** · February 25, 2016, 11:21 PM

Yes...the 245's are softer, sweeter, less detailed...EML anniversary globes are in another league

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**wyan** · February 25, 2016, 11:25 PM

BTW, Elrog have thoriated tungsten filaments. Tubes with such filaments usually squeeze every bit of details in music reproduction. However, it is always recommended that such filaments could use a slow warm-up. It is even better if the plate voltage can also slowly build up after filament fully warms up. These help most filament but is particularly beneficial to thoriated tungsten filaments.

Also, it seems that most tubes operate at around 180V plate volt and this could be a bit low on Elrog.

As much as I like Elrog on Lampizator, I am reluctant to recommend them on Lampi since my two pairs both failed.

As for takatsuki 274B. They are really in the top league and it is clearly above Cossor 378, GEC U52 (I tried the best version) and WE422A. No chance to compare to WE274B though.

**wyan** · February 25, 2016, 11:26 PM

Thanks. Glad to know. I am building a 45 single ended tube amp and am open to tube rolling. :p

Originally Posted by La Dolce Vita

Yes...the 245's are softer, sweeter, less detailed...EML anniversary globes are in another league

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**Crashem** · February 26, 2016, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by wyan

Thanks. Glad to know. I am building a 45 single ended tube amp and am open to tube rolling. :p

Problem is Eml globes only available in solid or mesh. The Eml 45 solid globes only released in 10th anniversary and unobtainium now. Eml 45 globe mesh only made for lampizator and likely only for big 7/GG customers. Hopefully you are a owner or soon to be owner

**La Dolce Vita** · February 26, 2016, 12:49 AM

Yes...exactly right...thank you

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**wyan** · February 26, 2016, 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by Crashem

Problem is Eml globes only available in solid or mesh. The Eml 45 solid globes only released in 10th anniversary and unobtainium now. Eml 45 globe mesh only made for lampizator and likely only for big 7/GG customers. Hopefully you are a owner or soon to be owner

I am a happy Big 7 owner.

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