DSD versus PCM - Is DSD really better or is it a 'myth'

[BlueFox]

"DSD is 1-bit PCM, and in almost all practical systems, it greatly complicates the path between the A/D and D/A converter. "

"There are many spectacular DSD recordings, but the quality is not due to any virtues of the DSD format."

"Nevertheless, the measured performance of DSD falls between that of the CD and 96 kHz 24-bit PCM."

"DSD is almost exactly equivalent to a 20-bit 96 kHz PCM system. "

Audio Myth -"DSD Provides a Direct Stream from A/D to D/A" - Benchmark Media Systems, Inc.

Makes sense to me. Probably why the Berkely Audio Referance DAC only does PCM.

[Mechnutt]

I have only 1 native DSD recording from Blue Coast and it sounds no different than its standard Redbook CD recording both run using HQ player.

Using HQ player to upconvert to DSD, some music sounds better at DSD and other music sounds better at 96K. It can be frustrating but I seem to have it figured out which music will sound better at different resolutions.

[the professor]

I can definitely see why only doing one format in a DAC would make sense. That way the DAC can be optimized for one or the other. Trying to do both in the same dac, seems to compromise both.

[wisnon]

Old stuff. The guy is a DSD hater. Whenyou hear quality DSD done right, there can be no question.

Nothing to see there.

[Mechnutt]

Old stuff. The guy is a DSD hater. Whenyou hear quality DSD done right, there can be no question.

Nothing to see there.

Agreed. I am a DSD believer.

[Mike]

Old stuff. The guy is a DSD hater. Whenyou hear quality DSD done right, there can be no question.

Nothing to see there.

Agreed. Sigh....same old, same old.

[still-one]

Old stuff. The guy is a DSD hater. Whenyou hear quality DSD done right, there can be no question.

Nothing to see there.

That's a circular argument. One could turn that around and say if you have heard PCM done right, there is no question.

Until I heard the MSB Select DAC on Redbook tracks I "might" have agreed that DSD was probably the best digital I had heard. Too bad there is no listenable DSD content for me.

[BlueFox]

The question is how do you know it is not the recording that is done right, versus the format?

[still-one]

The question is how do you know it is not the recording that is done right, versus the format?

The question for me, is the artist/performance interesting. The quality of the recording comes in a distant second.

[CPP]

This PCM vs DSD debate has been going on in every audio and computer audio forum out there since hi-rez stuff started and its never answered, just people defending what they have heard or know or what someone has told them or they read it somewhere. And I agree with Jim, it all depends on the artist and I would like to add, what type of music the person likes. But me, give me a well made recording with an artist that I enjoy and I don't care what format its in. Man its all about the music.

[bzr]

I've gone back to my oPPo 95 for a transport......

[BlueFox]

The question for me, is the artist/performance interesting. The quality of the recording comes in a distant second.

I sort of agree. Generally, I don't listen to music I do not care for, regardless of the quality. On the other hand, I would prefer the best quality available for music I do like.

[socfan12]

+1 Bud. Especially true with LPs, looking for good pressings/masterings, etc.

[Steve]

Buy the Opus4 DSD128 Sampler. I have the tape also, so I have "the" analog benchmark comparison.

The Opus4 DSD128 sampler is a good test base for your DAC and player.

I found that up sampling to DSD256 from the 128 recording on the fly using JPlay offered further improvement and a closer approximation to the analog tape master copy on the iFi iDSD.

Blacker but it is not as dynamic as tape. It would be great to compare a balanced Lampizator GG + CAPs JPlay vs Studer A810 loaded with A820 output amps.

When comparing PCM vs DSD, IMO PCM sounds best at 96/24. DSD continues to sound more organic the higher you go with it. Of course the outcome depends on the quality of the source and how well it was digitised to begin with.

[wisnon]

That's a circular argument. One could turn that around and say if you have heard PCM done right, there is no question.

Until I heard the MSB Select DAC on Redbook tracks I "might" have agreed that DSD was probably the best digital I had heard. Too bad there is no listenable DSD content for me.

Have you heard a broken in GG do DSD, for example?

[wisnon]

This PCM vs DSD debate has been going on in every audio and computer audio forum out there since hi-rez stuff started and its never answered, just people defending what they have heard or know or what someone has told them or they read it somewhere. And I agree with Jim, it all depends on the artist and I would like to add, what type of music the person likes. But me, give me a well made recording with an artist that I enjoy and I don't care what format its in. Man its all about the music.

All this may be true, but teh fact is DSD is the easier playback format to do well while PCM is the easier format to record in. You can now switch on the flay to any format you like anyway. The point is the Benchmark bashing is tired and biased and we heard it all before.

I personally admire great examples for both (I have heard the GG play DSD and the Trinity play PCM in the same system). Different flavors of delicious ice cream. What is there not to love?

[wisnon]

Buy the Opus4 DSD128 Sampler. I have the tape also, so I have "the" analog benchmark comparison.

The Opus4 DSD128 sampler is a good test base for your DAC and player.

I found that up sampling to DSD256 from the 128 recording on the fly using JPlay offered further improvement and a closer approximation to the analog tape master copy on the iFi iDSD.

Blacker but it is not as dynamic as tape. It would be great to compare a balanced Lampizator GG + CAPs JPlay vs Studer A810 loaded with A820 output amps.

When comparing PCM vs DSD, IMO PCM sounds best at 96/24. DSD continues to sound more organic the higher you go with it. Of course the outcome depends on the quality of the source and how well it was digitised to begin with.

Steve I have the IDSD and the B7. The Chipless DSD playback is a notch or 3 above the iDSD….which already is very, very good.

[Julot]

I am not aware of a rationale as to why DSD would be better than PCM. Not that I need one as proof, but a curious manufacturer would like to understand.

After a few years of trials, I came to the conclusion that PCM DAC conversion is often poorly made, and that musically satisfying DSD DAC conversion is simply easier. I never made it to the point where I missed DSD though, which would have tipped the balance.

I also found that the stages upstream of the DAC are more important than people assume, and I ended up spending (and advising clients to spend) more on digital transport than on DAC, as counter-intuitive as that may be.

But of course, given how few DSD files are actually available (not to mention affordable), that is a bit of a moot point for those who love to explore new music.

[Mike]

Buy the Opus4 DSD128 Sampler. I have the tape also, so I have "the" analog benchmark comparison.

The Opus4 DSD128 sampler is a good test base for your DAC and player.

I found that up sampling to DSD256 from the 128 recording on the fly using JPlay offered further improvement and a closer approximation to the analog tape master copy on the iFi iDSD.

Blacker but it is not as dynamic as tape. It would be great to compare a balanced Lampizator GG + CAPs JPlay vs Studer A810 loaded with A820 output amps.

When comparing PCM vs DSD, IMO PCM sounds best at 96/24. DSD continues to sound more organic the higher you go with it. Of course the outcome depends on the quality of the source and how well it was digitised to begin with.

Agreed - 100% on all accounts.

[wisnon]

I am not aware of a rationale as to why DSD would be better than PCM. Not that I need one as proof, but a curious manufacturer would like to understand.

After a few years of trials, I came to the conclusion that PCM DAC conversion is often poorly made, and that musically satisfying DSD DAC conversion is simply easier. I never made it to the point where I missed DSD though, which would have tipped the balance.

I also found that the stages upstream of the DAC are more important than people assume, and I ended up spending (and advising clients to spend) more on digital transport than on DAC, as counter-intuitive as that may be.

But of course, given how few DSD files are actually available (not to mention affordable), that is a bit of a moot point for those who love to explore new music.

You can use HQPlayer to upconvert on the fly and play to your DSD Dac's strength. You dont need new music files.

[Steve]

You can use HQPlayer to upconvert on the fly and play to your DSD Dac's strength. You dont need new music files.

It would seem that the nature of The DSD provides for better upsampling interpolation.

From my understanding, PCM on the other hand has the potential to introduce digitally induced ultrasonic artefacts at higher sampling rates.

[CPP]

You can use HQPlayer to upconvert on the fly and play to your DSD Dac's strength. You dont need new music files.

That would depend on if the file your up converting is well recorded. Still it comes down to the music being converted. If its sorry, you get a sorry up conversion but I do see you point. A good file upcoverted to DSD could be rather nice.

[CPP]

Agreed - 100% on all accounts.

Hey what the heck are you doing up at 4:24 am, its Saturday

[FlexibleAudio]

Old stuff. The guy is a DSD hater. Whenyou hear quality DSD done right, there can be no question.

Nothing to see there.

Dude your hyperboles never ceases to amaze me. I presume you were kidding right?

[mep]

Dude your hyperboles never ceases to amaze me. I presume you were kidding right?

I don't think he is. He might have OD on the Lampi Kool-Aid.

[Mike Lavigne]

I've been a dsd/sacd fanatic since the year 2000 and consistently felt dsd was quite a bit better. I have many terabytes of dsd and 2xdsd I listen to all the time. I've been living with top level dsd for 9 years, while acknowledging that the 'Lampy' approach to dsd might even be a little better still.

but recently I've been enjoying PCM including redbook which is every bit the equal of my dsd experiences......and maybe just a little bit better. does it also equal or better the 'Lampy' dsd view. I don't yet know that.

I will say that it does require a substantial commitment to get PCM to reach these heights.

[FlexibleAudio]

This PCM vs DSD debate has been going on in every audio and computer audio forum out there since hi-rez stuff started and its never answered, just people defending what they have heard or know or what someone has told them or they read it somewhere. And I agree with Jim, it all depends on the artist and I would like to add, what type of music the person likes. But me, give me a well made recording with an artist that I enjoy and I don't care what format its in. Man its all about the music.

Absolutely correct. It is never answered because there is no definitive answer; it is a personal observation based on many, many variables. Anyone who makes a definitive declaration (as opposed to expressing their personal preference) just sounds kinda silly.

The recording itself, mixing, conversion, dithering, upsampling, dac execution, filtering, system etc., all have a profound effect on personal preference. I even might guess that some fall romantically in love with--lets say, the sound of tubes versus solid state in a dac and then confuse this coloration with other things. That's all fine but it should be made more clear when someone is describing a preference versus making definitive declarations.

[mep]

I've been a dsd/sacd fanatic since the year 2000 and consistently felt dsd was quite a bit better. I have many terabytes of dsd and 2xdsd I listen to all the time. I've been living with top level dsd for 9 years, while acknowledging that the 'Lampy' approach to dsd might even be a little better still.

but recently I've been enjoying PCM including redbook which is every bit the equal of my dsd experiences......and maybe just a little bit better. does it also equal or better the 'Lampy' dsd view. I don't yet know that.

I will say that it does require a substantial commitment to get PCM to reach these heights.

So what's new Mike?

[Mike Lavigne]

So what's new Mike?

Trinity dac

[FlexibleAudio]

I've been a dsd/sacd fanatic since the year 2000 and consistently felt dsd was quite a bit better. I have many terabytes of dsd and 2xdsd I listen to all the time. I've been living with top level dsd for 9 years, while acknowledging that the 'Lampy' approach to dsd might even be a little better still.

but recently I've been enjoying PCM including redbook which is every bit the equal of my dsd experiences......and maybe just a little bit better. does it also equal or better the 'Lampy' dsd view. I don't yet know that.

I will say that it does require a substantial commitment to get PCM to reach these heights.

Good observations. I am curious Mike, do you mind if I ask what your reference dac's have been in these travels?

[mep]

Trinity dac

Myles just had a PCM epiphany with the PMD 200 at Magico's facility.

[Mike Lavigne]

Good observations. I am curious Mike, do you mind if I ask what your reference dac's have been in these travels?

for dsd, the Playback Designs MPS-5 for the last 9 years. for PCM, I'd say for the first 4-5 years I felt that the Playback Designs was in the ballpark for SOTA PCM. but for maybe the last 4-5 years I've been hearing better PCM performance than the Playbacks. but never toe to toe with my dsd reference, until now.

[socfan12]

Trinity dac

Very nice Mike. Auditioning or you purchased it already?

[Mike Lavigne]

Very nice Mike. Auditioning or you purchased it already?

I bought it 2 weeks ago. been listening since with my 'old' server. I'm in the process of building a 'hot rodded' CAPS v4 Pipeline server (very similar to the Lampizator Komputer but with a stand alone LPS) to fully optimize the Trinity.....and it will also improve the dsd with the Playbacks.

[socfan12]

Congrats, Mike! You didn't get the corresponding Trinity server? I'll forward you a link to an AE forum where Dietmar talks alot about his work there. Interesting stuff.

[FlexibleAudio]

for dsd, the Playback Designs MPS-5 for the last 9 years. for PCM, I'd say for the first 4-5 years I felt that the Playback Designs was in the ballpark for SOTA PCM. but for maybe the last 4-5 years I've been hearing better PCM performance than the Playbacks. but never toe to toe with my dsd reference, until now.

I somehow thought you would have the PBD. It is amazing what Andreas has done to keep that unit sota with upgrades. The MPS-5 must be the one of the best return on investment pieces of gear in the history of audio.

Congrats on the Trinity too!

[Mike Lavigne]

I somehow thought you would have the PBD. It is amazing what Andreas has done to keep that unit sota with upgrades. The MPS-5 must be the one of the best return on investment pieces of gear in the history of audio.

Congrats on the Trinity too!

thanks Paul.

I could not agree with you more about the remarkable staying power of the MPS-5. I had the very, very first MPS-5 in customer hands back in June 2006. and here 9 years later on it's 25th software release it's still relevant and competitive at the top of the dsd world, and still respectable PCM performance. it was a good value in 2006 and still is.

[Mike Lavigne]

Congrats, Mike! You didn't get the corresponding Trinity server? I'll forward you a link to an AE forum where Dietmar talks alot about his work there. Interesting stuff.

thanks. I see server technology as fluid. and as I have a network engineer son who can 'make stuff work' for his dad, I don't need plug and play like the Aurender or the Trinity PC & Drive. OTOH if I were to hear what the Trinity PC & Drive did to advance the performance who knows what I would do? the nice thing about staying generic with my server is that it can serve both the PCM and dsd dacs at the same time. if I had 2 systems, or was just PCM maybe I would view that differently.

products to enhance the server 'bit delivery' process are hitting the market daily. whereas dac performance advancement is less volatile.

[Audioseduction]

Guys, why beat a dead horse? PCM v DSD is getting old. Just get over it. It all sounds good! Life's too short to worry about it.

[rbbert]

Guys, why beat a dead horse? PCM v DSD is getting old. Just get over it. It all sounds good! Life's too short to worry about it.

But then what would we have to discuss??

[Mike]

Vinyl vs Digital?

Tubes vs SS?

[wisnon]

thanks Paul.

I could not agree with you more about the remarkable staying power of the MPS-5. I had the very, very first MPS-5 in customer hands back in June 2006. and here 9 years later on it's 25th software release it's still relevant and competitive at the top of the dsd world, and still respectable PCM performance. it was a good value in 2006 and still is.

Its nice, for PCM. Spent a weekend with Audiocrack in Holland with a new out of box SE GG Dac playing DSD from a basic MB Pro and his Trinity Dac playing PCM from the Trinity server. Like Adam, he has a GG for DSD and Trinity for PCM.

As I said, different flavours of delicious ice cream.

I have heard the PBD on 2 occasions and its very good, but I like the Lampi better for DSD and PCM….YMMV.

[wisnon]

But then what would we have to discuss??

Measurement!

Objectivism vs Subjectivity

Capitalism vs communism.

Nihilism vs existentialism.

[Mike Lavigne]

Its nice, for PCM. Spent a weekend with Audiocrack in Holland with a new out of box SE GG Dac playing DSD from a basic MB Pro and his Trinity Dac playing PCM from the Trinity server. Like Adam, he has a GG for DSD and Trinity for PCM.

As I said, different flavours of delicious ice cream.

I have heard the PBD on 2 occasions and its very good, but I like the Lampi better for DSD and PCM….YMMV.

Norman, I assume you saw I acquired the Trinity dac for my PCM?

http://audioshark.org/general-audio-...tml#post141280

so now my question is whether the step up to the Lampy for dsd only would be worth it over my PD?

[FlexibleAudio]

Guys, why beat a dead horse? PCM v DSD is getting old. Just get over it. It all sounds good! Life's too short to worry about it.

This is particularly true since "when you hear quality DSD done right, there can be no question." This argument has been definitively settled. Why do people bother?

[wisnon]

Hi Mike,

Adam and Audiocrack would agree with that conclusion and so would I. I already prefer the Big7 to the PBD, and I expect a broken in GG is another notch or 2 up the ladder.
The chipless DSD is the best DSD I have heard so far.

BTW, what transport/server do you use for the Trinity?

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike,

Adam and Audiocrack would agree with that conclusion and so would I. I already prefer the Big7 to the PBD, and I expect a broken in GG is another notch or 2 up the ladder.
The chipless DSD is the best DSD I have heard so far.

I've observed you and Paul go round and round (and round again) about what approach to dsd playback is correct. so I will simply not go there.

at some point soon i'll get to sit down and listen to the Lampy and come to my own conclusion.

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike,

BTW, what transport/server do you use for the Trinity?

for now i'm using my old server and NAS. I did move the CPU downstairs so I can eliminate the USB over Ethernet extender and use the Totaldac USB cable and a Regen. moving the CPU downstairs and the new USB cable were clear definite steps up in performance.

i'm building a CAPS v4 Pipeline 'hot rodded' server with a stand alone LPS; still waiting for one part to arrive to get that done.

since this server will be for both my PCM Trinity and the dsd Playbacks Design I need to use a generic server. the Trinity PC & Drive would only be for the Trinity. and I have my son the Network Engineer to assist.

[FlexibleAudio]

I've observed you and Paul go round and round (and round again) about what approach to dsd playback is correct. so I will simply not go there.

at some point soon i'll get to sit down and listen to the Lampy and come to my own conclusion.

Very good plan Mike. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

[still-one]

Have you heard a broken in GG do DSD, for example?

I am not going to go out of my way listening to a DAC with tubes.