The Ultimate turntable?

**jlv** · April 11, 2015, 07:29 AM

All is in the title.

Do not feel ashamed to post pictures...

(I told you I had a GAS attack

)

Best!

**Mike** · April 11, 2015, 10:00 AM

Kronos! Nothing touches it!

**Bodhi** · April 11, 2015, 10:12 AM

Carte blanche i'd buy a Tech Das AF1 with 10" Graham Phantom Elite arm and Air Tight PC-1 Supreme cart + a Reed 3P arm and Miyajima Madake cart paired with a Vitus MP-P201 phono stage.

**PeterA** · April 11, 2015, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

Kronos! Nothing touches it!

Not even an LP?

**Mike** · April 11, 2015, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by PeterA

Not even an LP?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Garth** · April 11, 2015, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Kronos! Nothing touches it!

We have difference of opinion

**Myles B. Astor** · April 11, 2015, 12:34 PM

How do you separate the sound of the turntable from the accompanying, selected arm (or cartridge?)?

Too many combos to make an conclusive statement.

**MDP** · April 11, 2015, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

How do you separate the sound of the turntable from the accompanying, selected arm (or cartridge?)?

Too many combos to make an conclusive statement.

I agree, like every other piece of audio gear, turntables are all different. The arm and cartridge play such an important role , and there are so many combinations that it's impossible to try them all.

And like all our other gear, every one has it's strengths and weaknesses. You just have to find the one that tickles your fancy, and your budget.

**Glareskin** · April 11, 2015, 02:54 PM

The Transrotor Artus?

**Glareskin** · April 11, 2015, 03:01 PM

I like simplicity in perfection. That is why my personal favorite is the Swedish Bergmann Audio Sleipner. A completely air bearing design for the platter and the tonearm.

**Garth** · April 11, 2015, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Glareskin

I like simplicity in perfection. That is why my personal favorite is the Swedish Bergmann Audio Sleipner. A completely air bearing design for the platter and the tonearm.

And it sounds good to nice table not the Ultimate but a table I like a lot.

**Glareskin** · April 11, 2015, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Garth

And it sounds good to nice table not the Ultimate but a table I like a lot.

I agree! But it is also the design. I think this Kuzma Stabi XL with Airline tonearm from Slovenia is probably better but I don't fancy the kitchy gold details....

**Bobolaclune** · April 11, 2015, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Glareskin

I agree! But it is also the design. I think this Kuzma Stabi XL with Airline tonearm from Slovenia is probably better but I don't fancy the kitchy gold details....

Well, as the owner of a kitschy XL2 with an Airline arm , I'm sure I feel offended :-) .

Not so offended however that I don't want to mount an effort to assuage your delicate sensibilities. Since I don't want to let superficial cosmetic considerations dissuade you from the correct path to enlightenment , I should point out - it's also available in an Armani-approved all-black finish.

A stupendous table and arm.

Shodhan

**Bobolaclune** · April 11, 2015, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by Glareskin

The Transrotor Artus?

This presses no Kitschy buttons at all...:-)

**Glareskin** · April 11, 2015, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Bobolaclune

Well, as the owner of a kitschy XL2 with an Airline arm , I'm sure I feel offended :-) .

Not so offended however that I don't want to mount an effort to assuage your delicate sensibilities. Since I don't want to let superficial cosmetic considerations dissuade you from the correct path to enlightenment , I should point out - it's also available in an Armani-approved all-black finish.

A stupendous table and arm.

Shodhan

I am sorry for my blunt expression of my taste Shoddan

However as you could also read I do think the Kuzma is the better turntable! But I have to admit the all black version better suits my taste.

Congratulations with your record player. Surely one of the very best on the planet!

**Bobolaclune** · April 11, 2015, 04:18 PM

Just kidding Hans , no offense intended I am sure and certainly none taken....

**Glareskin** · April 11, 2015, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Bobolaclune

This presses no Kitschy buttons at all...:-)

LOL

**Myles B. Astor** · April 11, 2015, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Bobolaclune

Well, as the owner of a kitschy XL2 with an Airline arm , I'm sure I feel offended :-) .

Not so offended however that I don't want to mount an effort to assuage your delicate sensibilities. Since I don't want to let superficial cosmetic considerations dissuade you from the correct path to enlightenment , I should point out - it's also available in an Armani-approved all-black finish.

A stupendous table and arm.

Shodhan

I was going to add the same thing.

I actually love the gold/black cosmetics and the picture doesn't do the table justice. I tried to get the table for review back in either 1999 or 2000 for Ultimate Audio after hearing it at Branko's store in London (at that time with CJ electronics and Avalon speakers). Branko was supposed to bring it across the big pond but logistics never seemed to work out.

Truly an excellent sounding table!

image.jpg

How about the new version that was released in March? See Kuzma is also now selling a ultrasonic RCM!

Stabi XL DC New: March 2015 - Kuzma Professional Turntables, Tonearms and Accessories

**Mike** · April 11, 2015, 06:02 PM

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**annapolis Raider** · April 11, 2015, 06:09 PM

Kuzma XL owner here... I have 2 Four Points on mine. Mine is also on a Minus K platform. The new DC motor/belt and controller comes from the Kuzma M. It is a subtle improvement on an already state of the art contender.

**Bobolaclune** · April 11, 2015, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by annapolis Raider

Kuzma XL owner here... I have 2 Four Points on mine. Mine is also on a Minus K platform. The new DC motor/belt and controller comes from the Kuzma M. It is a subtle improvement on an already state of the art contender.

When did you upgrade to the DC & was yours an XL2 or XL4 ? I have a 4Point and the Airline arms on mine . I dread the idea of an upgrade.......

**annapolis Raider** · April 11, 2015, 06:43 PM

PM me Bob.... glad to talk about it in more detail

**Mike** · April 11, 2015, 06:43 PM

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**wizard** · April 11, 2015, 07:56 PM

The ultimate TT for me if it don't have any problems with Zero Point.

If its a ball bearing - ZP comes from a not so good under-dimensioned ball bearing, plus a to small motor pulley and a weak motor.

One should also avoid acryl platters because of the electrostatic charge - you don't want 10000V into your phono stage.
And magnetic bearing because of it's stray field - this will affect your MC, actually with that bearing one will not hear what's is capable of.

**Myles B. Astor** · April 11, 2015, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by wizard

The ultimate TT for me if it don't have any problems with Zero Point.

If its a ball bearing - ZP comes from a not so good under-dimensioned ball bearing, plus a to small motor pulley and a weak motor.

One should also avoid acryl platters because of the electrostatic charge - you don't want 10000V into your phono stage.
And magnetic bearing because of it's stray field - this will affect your MC, actually with that bearing one will not hear what's is capable of.

Really? Did you ever hear of grounding?

**Garth** · April 11, 2015, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by wizard

The ultimate TT for me if it don't have any problems with Zero Point.

If its a ball bearing - ZP comes from a not so good under-dimensioned ball bearing, plus a to small motor pulley and a weak motor.

One should also avoid acryl platters because of the electrostatic charge - you don't want 10000V into your phono stage.
And magnetic bearing because of it's stray field - this will affect your MC, actually with that bearing one will not hear what's is capable of.

Wizard you are a guy who gets around and knows his stuff.
I have a acrylic platter and a Magnetic bearing never had a problem to date and I do have a MC cartridge.
A few people are down on Acrylic but never for electrostatic charge that I have heard of.
Just asking what you have heard or seen.

**wizard** · April 11, 2015, 10:32 PM

So why do you Clearaudio changes to POM platter on Statement 2 - one was the electrostatic problems on MK 1.
Yes you can ground it and spray on antistatic spray on the platter, this will help for a couple of weeks and then it builds up again.

About Magnetic stray fields - to check for it put a compass close to the TT or close to the cart when it play a record, and the compass will have problems to show north.

Anyone don't have a question about Zero Point, you all know about it already?, and if it's big enough the TT will have a lot of speed errors.

**Garth** · April 11, 2015, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by wizard

So why do you Clearaudio changes to POM platter on Statement 2 - one was the electrostatic problems on MK 1.
Yes you can ground it and spray on antistatic spray on the platter, this will help for a couple of weeks and then it builds up again.

About Magnetic stray fields - to check for it put a compass close to the TT or close to the cart when it play a record, and the compass will have problems to show north.

Anyone don't have a question about Zero Point, you all know about it already?, and if it's big enough the TT will have a lot of speed errors.

Well I think putting the price up to 200,000 needed some changes POM being one of them. I have never sprayed my platter with anything never a problem.
I will give your compass a try next time I find a compass. I would ask another owner but their are only 5 statements in Canada. Not saying this problem has never happened I have not heard of it is all. I still think the Magnetic bearing fixes more than it hurts IMO. Thanks for the info.

**Myles B. Astor** · April 12, 2015, 12:01 AM

Deleted

**Glareskin** · April 12, 2015, 02:44 AM

I do have an acrylic platter on my Pro-ject and never experienced electrostatic problems.

**Dpod4** · April 12, 2015, 03:07 AM

Anyone with two of these laying around I will trade all three of mine for one.
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1428822424.486704.jpg

**wizard** · April 12, 2015, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by Dpod4

Anyone with two of these laying around I will trade all three of mine for one.
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1428822424.486704.jpg

Ginga will have big problems with Zero Point, and also after around 5 years it will have problems with the bearing itself.

**Dpod4** · April 12, 2015, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by wizard

Ginga will have big problems with Zero Point, and also after around 5 years it will have problems with the bearing itself.

Good to know (not that I planned on buying one!)

**Mike** · April 12, 2015, 11:47 AM

What I see with a lot of these great tables is much of the same in terms of an approach to ultimately and most effectively spinning the record. I see varying degrees of mass and motors. And yes, I would love to own lots of them, actually, all of them! But if I'm being honest, what I don't see is anything truly innovative, like the Kronos. Arms and cartridges, yes, lots of great stuff. But on the table itself, not so much.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Dpod4** · April 12, 2015, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

What I see with a lot of these great tables is much of the same in terms of approach to ultimately and most effectively spinning the record. I see varying degrees of mass and motors. What I don't see is anything truly innovative, like the Kronos. Arms and cartridges, yes, lots of great stuff. But on the table itself, not so much.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think clear audio approaches their models with innovation in materials and technology. There is an upgrade to the innovation wood where a sub unit with platter spins and drives the platter above. Haven't heard it but seems they have tried to nail isolation and speed control in a big way. Then there is Allen Perkins at spiral groove who I think is the master at innovating but putting the accent on perfect execution and evolution of tried and true engineering and user interface for analog setups. Anymore I believe the quality of cartridge and phono preamp plays a bigger role than the table in what we hear in the upper tier of tables.

**Mike** · April 12, 2015, 12:09 PM

Darrin - all valid points, but those to me, just seem more of the same. None of these items does anything to eliminate smearing like a counter rotating table. At the end of the day, all these tables are great and provide endless listening enjoyment. And thankfully, we don't have to suffer through a flavor of the month table every month! They are all great and appearance has a lot to do with it too.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Garth** · April 12, 2015, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

What I see with a lot of these great tables is much of the same in terms of an approach to ultimately and most effectively spinning the record. I see varying degrees of mass and motors. And yes, I would love to own lots of them, actually, all of them! But if I'm being honest, what I don't see is anything truly innovative, like the Kronos. Arms and cartridges, yes, lots of great stuff. But on the table itself, not so much.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I do not even pretend to know what is the Ultimate turntable if their is even such a thing. Your very up on the Kronos and it is a very well built and good sounding table. just a few points the down side or nemesis of any table are 1. vibration out side sources 2. bearing noise 3. belt noise 4 motor noise Kronos has more belts more bearings more platters thus a bigger motor than most tables . The counter rotation works for their design but it adds a lot of moving parts.
Works for them but it is a lot more stuff moving around. It is all a trade off that said I still think it is a good table. As far as designing goes the old KISS has its merits as well. Kiss= keep it simple stupid rather than Kiss=Knights in Satan's service as in the band. It is amazing the time and effort that as gone into Turntable design in resent years. Some very fine work hats off to those with that kind of talent (Hard to believe they could not find a real jobs) just kidding. A great time to be in audio even if it is pricey . Just my 2 cents worth

**Mike** · April 12, 2015, 01:15 PM

Garth - I would check it out and take a closer look if you get a chance. For example, the Kronos only has two belts - one for the top platter and one for the bottom. As for bearing noise, it's dead quiet and the bearings are not only the quietest I've seen, but the best. Without the belt, the platter will spin for what seems like an eternity. There really is no belt noise either that I can hear. As for vibration, there are videos around showing Louis knocking on the side of the table and no noise. It has amazing suspension system. But truly, these details aren't as well known because everyone focuses on its main unique feature - the counter rotating tables which all but eliminate traditional smear.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**highEndguy** · April 12, 2015, 01:35 PM

I recently acquire the Kuzma Distribution in the Caribbean
Happy to see Kuzma lovers here

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Garth** · April 12, 2015, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Garth

I do not even pretend to know what is the Ultimate turntable if their is even such a thing. Your very up on the Kronos and it is a very well built and good sounding table. just a few points the down side or nemesis of any table are 1. vibration out side sources 2. bearing noise 3. belt noise 4 motor noise Kronos has more belts more bearings more platters thus a bigger motor than most tables . The counter rotation works for their design but it adds a lot of moving parts.
Works for them but it is a lot more stuff moving around. It is all a trade off that said I still think it is a good table. As far as designing goes the old KISS has its merits as well. Kiss= keep it simple stupid rather than Kiss=Knights in Satan's service as in the band. It is amazing the time and effort that as gone into Turntable design in resent years. Some very fine work hats off to those with that kind of talent (Hard to believe they could not find a real jobs) just kidding. A great time to be in audio even if it is pricey . Just my 2 cents worth

Wizard do not get to close to the screen 10,000 volts may jump out and get you right in your Brown Eyes.

**Dpod4** · April 12, 2015, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Darrin - all valid points, but those to me, just seem more of the same. None of these items does anything to eliminate smearing like a counter rotating table. At the end of the day, all these tables are great and provide endless listening enjoyment. And thankfully, we don't have to suffer through a flavor of the month table every month! They are all great and appearance has a lot to do with it too.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I do believe the innovation sub platter is counter rotating.

**Bobolaclune** · April 12, 2015, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Dpod4

I do believe the innovation sub platter is counter rotating.

If you mean the Master Innovation - no it is not. The belt/motor are connected to the lower platter which has embedded magnets in it which in turn attract magnets on the underside of the main platter . They both turn in the same direction. There is no physical connection between the top and bottom platters at all.

**Dpod4** · April 12, 2015, 03:14 PM

For true innovation solving the problems inherent to belt design I think you have to go all the way to direct drive - at that price range I would get the new $30k deck from VPI and make sure it had a great cartridge like the Goldfinger Statement and a killer phono cable into a killer phono stage. I think there is a real law of diminishing returns on mass loaded (and for that matter suspended) belt drives. I think executing the heck out known principles is a good route. If I want a completely black and noiseless background I turn to digital.

**MDP** · April 13, 2015, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by Dpod4

For true innovation solving the problems inherent to belt design I think you have to go all the way to direct drive - at that price range I would get the new $30k deck from VPI and make sure it had a great cartridge like the Goldfinger Statement and a killer phono cable into a killer phono stage. I think there is a real law of diminishing returns on mass loaded (and for that matter suspended) belt drives. I think executing the heck out known principles is a good route. If I want a completely black and noiseless background I turn to digital.

I agree, the Classic Direct may not look as fancy as a lot of the high end tables, but that's the one I would buy also.

**bpw** · April 13, 2015, 09:25 AM

(post deleted)

**XV-1** · April 13, 2015, 09:42 AM

dup post

**XV-1** · April 13, 2015, 09:47 AM

I would love to hear a review between the VPI Classic Direct and Wave Kinetics turntable and even the Monaco table

Both direct drive tables and I know how how good direct drive done well is with my Pioneer Exclusive P3

I think you could buy all 3 for the price of the belt drive Air Force AF-1

**rockitman** · April 13, 2015, 02:36 PM

If I could buy any turntable in the world, it would still be the AF1.

**PeterA** · April 13, 2015, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Dpod4

I do believe the innovation sub platter is counter rotating.

I think 47K Labs also had a two-platter counter rotating turntable. The cool thing was that they only had one belt.

**PeterA** · April 13, 2015, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by XV-1

I would love to hear a review between the VPI Classic Direct and Wave Kinetics turntable and even the Monaco table

Both direct drive tables and I know how how good direct drive done well is with my Pioneer Exclusive P3

I think you could buy all 3 for the price of the belt drive Air Force AF-1

In that group, I would add the Dobbin's THE BEAT and the vintage Technics SP10 mk3. Direct comparisons have been made between these two and the Wave Kinetics. I wonder how the VPI compares. I've heard that the VPI DD is being modified/upgraded for its next production run. Perhaps just a rumor.

I would not knock belt drive. The TechDAS AF2 and SME 30/12 were both tested by HiFI NEWS and have extremely good speed results.

Thread: The Ultimate turntable?