YG Acoustics Carmel 2

[wizard]

[wizard]

[Bodhi]

I heard the YG Carmel 2's recently & have to say I was impressed. They are a big improvement over the original Carmel. Here are my listening notes and video below..

System: YG Carmel 2's with Bel Canto Ref1000 mono blocks, Dac2.7, CD3T transport and Siltech Royal Signature Series cables.

I was pleasantly surprised by how good the diminutive Bel Canto gear sounded. Not it's not Vitus, but for its size and cost it's a winner for sure. The YG's looked and sounded more refined and coherent thanks to a new, heavier reinforced cabinet, new cabinet shape including a more curved front baffle and new crossover. The Carmel 2's also gains 'new' in-house drivers filtered down from the YG Hayley & Sonja. The result is a more refined and smooth sounding speaker than its predecessor.

Overall the Carmels 2's are MUCH better than the originals & sound more composed, natural and are no longer fatiguing. The Bel Canto gear held its own which was impressive! whilst the Siltech cables added a bit of harmonic richness as expected and helped the good staging. Kind of wets my appetite to hear the Hayleys again ^-^.

CD - Joni Mitchell, Blue DCC 24kt gold remaster.

[mep]

Bodhi-I know how hard it is to capture high quality audio of a system playing because I have done it numerous times and I feel like I capture about 5% of what my system sounds like. Having said that, the audio in that video is horrible.

[Bodhi]

Bodhi-I know how hard it is to capture high quality audio of a system playing because I have done it numerous times and I feel like I capture about 5% of what my system sounds like. Having said that, the audio in that video is horrible.

Lol, well that was captured on my Iphone 6, then loaded to Youtube with its standard settings (ie: horribly compressed). The main reason for posting was just to get up close and personal to the speakers, and of course to post my impressions which I suspect will be of more value than the (sq of the) vid

[MDP]

I've never had the chance to hear YG speakers, I hear from people that the overall sound has improved through the years.

[Bodhi]

I've never had the chance to hear YG speakers, I hear from people that the overall sound has improved through the years.

I've always been impressed with the sound of the Hayley's, especially with Vitus and Soulution amps (though not cheap). As for the Carmel 2's, as good as they sound, for the same or similar money you would have to throw the Magico S3 into the mix. That would be an interesting a-b comparison

[KeithR]

Have a pair of Carmel 2s being dropped off today for an in-home demo

It will be very interesting to have a more, traditional "hifi" speaker in my room. I've thought about Magico/YG for awhile and now will get to hear it up close and personal.

[Mike]

Have a pair of Carmel 2s being dropped off today for an in-home demo

It will be very interesting to have a more, traditional "hifi" speaker in my room. I've thought about Magico/YG for awhile and now will get to hear it up close and personal.

Congrats Keith! Looking forward to your impressions.

[KeithR]

Some thoughts after 10 days with the YGs- first, I expected this to be a lean, cool speaker and it happily isn't I wouldn't consider it warm though like a SF or Harbeth. I have them paired with DarTZeel which isn't bleached harmonically and it seems to drive them adequately. The speakers ooze quality- these guys machine even the drivers out of billet aluminum. 25k seems a lot for a small floorstander, but when you examine them you understand why.

They have excellent coherency- this is one of the first things I notice, although its only a 2-way so considerably easier. No disparate sound from drivers. The tweeter is extended, but natural with no zing (or beryllium bite)- although on a track or two the top end seemed elevated, but was that the tweeter or recording? I honestly started thinking it was the latter- its also the most extended soft-dome tweet I've heard. Transparency was off the charts- you really hear detail that other speakers mask. This is a very low distortion transducer. Bass out of this small of a cabinet was killer- tight and hard hitting but with excellent texture and I certainly believe the mid-30s specification. I've lived with sealed, active bass for 5 years, so i made that decision a long time ago...

A few weaknesses (all speakers have them, including my own). Sensitivity is low and while they do macro dynamics much better than I expected, I found myself having to crank them up more than others. There is a compressed feeling that I sensed from time to time unlike high efficiency speakers (and especially horns)- they aren't as fleet of foot as larger speakers. My guess is this gets better as you move up into the larger cabinet speakers. I also found myself wanting a bit more warmth in timbre- whether that is accurate, I haven't a clue (mostly on strings, not as much on piano). Mids actually had quite good body and resolution- vocals sounded fantastic. Perhaps a different amp (Luxman or Vac) would be an even better mate.

Overall, YG has stepped up there game considerably in the past two years starting with the Sonja and now ending with the Carmel 2- to be perfectly honestly, I always found them bright and lean before. The house sound is definitively more musical (as mentioned in the TAS CES writeup where they received rave reviews in both rooms) The new drivers and crossovers have really transformed the sound into something. I know people worship Alon and Magico's footsteps, but I think Yoav and YG are right there with them. Now onward to hear the Haileys...

[Mike]

Great write up Keith. Looking forward to your comments on the Haileys.


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[the professor]

Thanks

I agree with you - YG imo has come a long way in a short time.

[Bodhi]

Thanks for the detailed write up Keith. Good job! I agree with your observations which pretty much reflect what I heard from the Carmel 2's vs the original Carmel. The only thing I disagree with is this reference "I know people worship Alon and Magico's footsteps". I can't say i've seen any alters erected for Magico speakers or their designer, Alon Wolfe. Though I note many envy their success..

[KeithR]

Thanks, guys. I should also add that depth of soundstage and layering of instruments is really excellent on the YGs- that's a function of their low distortion i'm sure.

Mike- I'm actually hearing the S5/Vac combo this weekend, but a friend has Haileys so will hear them at some point. Hopefully you guys will have some recommendations post-Axpona that I can hear in Newport.

[socfan12]

Keith, nice writeup on the Carmels! I heard them at the NYAS 2 years ago, and the Hailey's and Sonja's a few months ago. They are all excellent speakers. Loved the Sonja's in Bill Parish's big room. WOW!

Look forward to your impressions of the S5/Vac combo!

[Mike]

Keith - have you ever heard Estelon's? I just love them, but they don't seem to garner a lot of interest.

As for YG, I've heard them sound quite good (Sonja's) and not so good. But shows aren't the best for that really.

I know you want something that is ideally somewhat efficient. My obvious recommendation is STRADS - they are NOT overly warm and I am really looking forward to folks impressions of them post Axpona and they will be shown in the Resolution Acoustics room.

The other thing is Focal. Don't do anything as there is some VERY exciting new stuff coming down the pipe from them. Stay tuned!!!

I will also be VERY interested in your thoughts on the S5's.


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[Bodhi]

I've heard the YG Hailey and obviously own S5's. I think the Hailey has lower distortion and is a bit more refined as you would expect given the price. Bass is also excellent and goes deep, though the S5 is a bit warmer and has more soul/emotion imho. Ultimately I found the S5's more fun to listen to. I also prefer their look. That said, i'll be interested to read Keith's view of the two speakers as well all hear things differently.

[KeithR]

Keith - have you ever heard Estelon's? I just love them, but they don't seem to garner a lot of interest.

I know you want something that is ideally somewhat efficient. My obvious recommendation is STRADS - they are NOT overly warm and I am really looking forward to folks impressions of them post Axpona and they will be shown in the Resolution Acoustics room.

I have heard the Estelons at shows and been impressed paired with Concert Fidelity electronics- but a recent experience with ceramic drivers has turned me away from those types of speakers.

As far as SF, I've historically thought the brand was too warm for me (never heard past the Cremona though)- it might be worth a demo now. The Devore Gibbon X is the other wood speaker that interests me, but they are taking forever to get production to dealers.

My Zus aren't the most resolving speaker out there- and I get that. But they have a beguiling combination of free, open, dynamic sound with a huge sound stage and great tone. Its the benefit of not having a crossover. What's interesting is the dealer brought over a KS Emotion cord to use on my Dart with the YGs (which YG recommends)- it indeed was the perfect match. However, the same cord doesn't seem to work at all with the Definitions.

[KeithR]

Onward to the Magico/Vac demo...

It was at a local dealer in a large, dedicated room- I'd estimate 20' x 30'. The S5s were on an all Vac setup (the 450s) with Synergistic cabling- quite a few room treatments, ART, etc. They just seemed a bit dynamically restrained and while the dealer professed how easy they are to drive, I felt the opposite. The S5s had a very extended treble, but natural and not bright- it was perhaps a bit softer beryllium than the Focal demo I heard a few months ago. Whether that was the amps or the speakers, hard to say. Mids were reasonably fleshed out, but not as full or transparent as on the YGs. The S5s also didn't disappear like the narrow baffle YGs, but are more like my own speakers (which use 2 10" drivers as well, only full-range). On the (in)famous Magico bass, I think the warmer bass of the S series wasn't a good match for tetrode tubes but output was fine for my taste. I could feel the woofer location if that makes any sense. The dealer did say the S5 has a darker balance than the S3 which I found interesting. That said, I concluded I would want the extra bass of the S5s and to hear the S5s again on SS. I just didn't feel the S5s drew me into the music enough or were dynamic this particular morning, but since Magico is so sensitive to inputs its hard to say what the culprit was and of course this wasn't in my own room.

Overall, I think BlueFox has the S5 setup I'd like to hear- big Pass or Constellation Class A/B to really deliver effortless sound. I know some folks on this forum are going to disagree, but that's what I heard...

I also went to Pitch Perfect Audio's music night last night and heard the A23 Hommage and Shindo Latours- yes, a 180 degree, totally different kind of sound. But each had an effortless and tonality that was lacking in my morning demo, probably at the expense of some resolution. Clearly different strokes for different folks. The Shindos are 100db and the A23s 94db. btw, the A23 has remarkable presence, but is limited to certain music (they have no real bass)- if you're a 60s jazz head, this might be the speaker for you. I found the finish beautiful in person and usually I'm not into the retro stuff at all.

[Bones13]

I heard the Carmel 2s at Axpona. One of the rooms I really liked. These speakers sounded really good, even in show type, hotel room, setup. I was impressed.

Also listened to the Zu Audio Druid V, which I am really glad to have on order. Hopefully they will show up this month, they were reportedly in the paint shop. I thought they were a good step up from my Zu Audio Essence speakers, and fit well in my small room, with low watt amps.

For a lot more money in both speaker, and amplifiers, I would be happy with the Carmel 2 speakers.

[Myles B. Astor]

I have heard the Estelons at shows and been impressed paired with Concert Fidelity electronics- but a recent experience with ceramic drivers has turned me away from those types of speakers.

As far as SF, I've historically thought the brand was too warm for me (never heard past the Cremona though)- it might be worth a demo now. The Devore Gibbon X is the other wood speaker that interests me, but they are taking forever to get production to dealers.

My Zus aren't the most resolving speaker out there- and I get that. But they have a beguiling combination of free, open, dynamic sound with a huge sound stage and great tone. Its the benefit of not having a crossover. What's interesting is the dealer brought over a KS Emotion cord to use on my Dart with the YGs (which YG recommends)- it indeed was the perfect match. However, the same cord doesn't seem to work at all with the Definitions.

Two years ago at CES, the Estelons paired with the mega-$80K Chord amps and the Jadis table/arm and AT Supreme was outstanding. Finesse was their middle name.

Now they have a newer SOTA model.

Personally, I think the Estelons look may put people off.

[Myles B. Astor]

Onward to the Magico/Vac demo...

It was at a local dealer in a large, dedicated room- I'd estimate 20' x 30'. The S5s were on an all Vac setup (the 450s) with Synergistic cabling- quite a few room treatments, ART, etc. They just seemed a bit dynamically restrained and while the dealer professed how easy they are to drive, I felt the opposite. The S5s had a very extended treble, but natural and not bright- it was perhaps a bit softer beryllium than the Focal demo I heard a few months ago. Whether that was the amps or the speakers, hard to say. Mids were reasonably fleshed out, but not as full or transparent as on the YGs. The S5s also didn't disappear like the narrow baffle YGs, but are more like my own speakers (which use 2 10" drivers as well, only full-range). On the (in)famous Magico bass, I think the warmer bass of the S series wasn't a good match for tetrode tubes but output was fine for my taste. I could feel the woofer location if that makes any sense. The dealer did say the S5 has a darker balance than the S3 which I found interesting. That said, I concluded I would want the extra bass of the S5s and to hear the S5s again on SS. I just didn't feel the S5s drew me into the music enough or were dynamic this particular morning, but since Magico is so sensitive to inputs its hard to say what the culprit was and of course this wasn't in my own room.

Overall, I think BlueFox has the S5 setup I'd like to hear- big Pass or Constellation Class A/B to really deliver effortless sound. I know some folks on this forum are going to disagree, but that's what I heard...

I also went to Pitch Perfect Audio's music night last night and heard the A23 Hommage and Shindo Latours- yes, a 180 degree, totally different kind of sound. But each had an effortless and tonality that was lacking in my morning demo, probably at the expense of some resolution. Clearly different strokes for different folks. The Shindos are 100db and the A23s 94db. btw, the A23 has remarkable presence, but is limited to certain music (they have no real bass)- if you're a 60s jazz head, this might be the speaker for you. I found the finish beautiful in person and usually I'm not into the retro stuff at all.

Yes, as one who has heard different amps on the S5s. when you start to talk about all that room Rx, my warning bells go off.

Of course different rooms, etc...

What were the sources?

[a.wayne]

Myles,

What do you think the room RX is doing..? Keith did not mention if room treatments were absorbing or diffusing , or both.....

[Myles B. Astor]

Myles,

What do you think the room RX is doing..? Keith did not mention if room treatments were absorbing or diffusing , or both.....

Read about the Synergistic room Rx. I think it's been reviewed and talked about in several mags and forums. I think Breuninger and Fremer reviewed them IIRC.

[PureVinyl]

Honestly, did not care, about these speakers at Axpona, sound was just ok.

IMO- kinda boring- actually room was a little dull


Strads/Pass was a fantastic room, also Vivid G3 and CAT JL5 (one of my favorite)


Klaus from Odyssey Audio, had a lovely system, all for Only 7k (speakers/amps etc...) loved it!

[KeithR]

Yes, as one who has heard different amps on the S5s. when you start to talk about all that room Rx, my warning bells go off.

Of course different rooms, etc...

What were the sources?

I hear you, Myles. As I've reflected on it further, I really did toss most of it up to room as I've heard the S5s sound better. It was on a Mac CDP on my demo CD. Next time I'm in the city, I'll look you up

a. wayne- several bass traps in the corners and first reflection panels (although up really high). and then all the synergistic stuff.

[Myles B. Astor]

I hear you, Myles. As I've reflected on it further, I really did toss most of it up to room as I've heard the S5s sound better. It was on a Mac CDP on my demo CD. Next time I'm in the city, I'll look you up

a. wayne- several bass traps in the corners and first reflection panels (although up really high). and then all the synergistic stuff.

You are more than welcome to drop by.

We'll have to spool up some tape.

[asiufy]

Cool review of the YG Carmel 2:

YG Acoustics Carmel 2 Floorstanding Loudspeaker A thorough revision, with many improvements, to its previous design. Review By Phil Gold

As is becoming the norm with YGs, the reviewer kept the review pair

There's also an interview with the designer, Yoav Geva here: An Interview With YG Acoustics' Yoav Geva Interview By Phil Gold


cheers,
alex

[valkyrie]

Heard a YG speaker (a three way with the woofer on the bottom - do not remember the exact model) exactly once at a GTT room during an RMAF show.

Astonishingly neutral - playing a digital recording of Prokofiev's "Lt. Kije". Full Soulution stack driving them in a mid-size room (down stairs). Just breathtaking in its absolute purity. I was impressed by the speakers and the ease of the amplifiers. A very good speaker to my ears.

Rather on the "pricey" side of the world. The entire rig came in at about the price of an entry level house - as I recall about $200k or so. From this one would expect excellent sound - but unlike many systems available at this price point this one actually delivered the goods.

Very nice - very expensive.

[Elberoth]

Not long after Magico S1 mk 2 graced my listening room, I got a chance to borrow a pair of Carmel 2s.

The first impression: where is the bass ? Those speakers certainly sound very light on their feet.

I'm a bit surprised to read KeithR comment, that 'bass out of this small of a cabinet was killer- tight and hard hitting'. The impression I got is quite the oposite actually, in line with what John Atkinson have found out: '

The low-frequency warble tones on Editor's Choice began shelving down below 125Hz'
'kick drums have their most energy in the midbass'

He have posted his in-room response where you can see a deep midbass shelving (Red = YG, Blue = Kef Blade) and this exactly how the Carmels sound in my listening room:


- bass shelved down below 125Hz.


I have yet to try to move them closer to the front wall to see if that will bring the midbass back (they are now 4 feet from the front wall). As is, even the dimunitive Harbeth P3-ESR (not to mention Harbeth M30.1 or Dynaudio Special 25 monitors) sounded as much bigger speakers.

Other than that - they are very clear and transparent, but I don't think I'm hearing anything I have't heard from the S1 mk 2s. Based on my aural memory (which can be deceptive !), Magicos throw even deeper soundstage (both however disappear completely), were smoother on top and had much more grunt down low, the mid bass and low bass were much more present.

Both are low in sensitivity.

[mdp632]

Thanks for sharing Adam. Great post and I enjoyed reading it. However, I compared both speakers extensively with my amplifier (Pass INT-60) and Carmel 2 was the clear winner to me. It was a more easier to drive and frankly I found the bass to be far superior than the S1MK2 with my amplifier. However, the Magico's treble resolution was very good if not maybe a hair better.

These are two the top loudspeaker manufactures on the market today. They keep going back and forth with innovation. However, I feel Yoav Geva of YG is by far the most gifted loud speaker designer in the world today. His Cross over technology is proprietary and special to YG. His new Sonja XV flagship has surpassed the Q7MK 2 and probably the more overpriced and limited WAMM.

In terms of proprietary relevant technology in my opinion of course. Sound of course I feel in the end so matter what the cost is still subjective to the customer.

Love both Magico and YG. I feel one can't go wrong with either. They have certainly surpassed Wilson as far an American made dynamic driver loudspeaker companies.

[KeithR]

Elberoth - to be fair, I said I believe they hit only mid-30s which isn't tremendous 20hz room flattening stuff, but that the impact in my smaller room (14' x 16') was quite nice. You have had Alexias in your room as I recall, which would blow me out of my room I do find the Hailey a more tonally balanced speaker and told the dealer that it was the one I would think of ultimately purchasing. I thought the Carmel had more bass than a monitor that came through my room a few months prior. They were 2' or so from my rear wall.

The Magico S5s that JA measured show drop off in the bass as well - I think its just a function of sealed bass optimized for articulation rather than output. The original S5 had a similar arrangement in the Soundstage measurements.

[a.wayne]

Thanks for sharing Adam. Great post and I enjoyed reading it. However, I compared both speakers extensively with my amplifier (Pass INT-60) and Carmel 2 was the clear winner to me. It was a more easier to drive and frankly I found the bass to be far superior than the S1MK2 with my amplifier. However, the Magico's treble resolution was very good if not maybe a hair better.

These are two the top loudspeaker manufactures on the market today. They keep going back and forth with innovation. However, I feel Yoav Geva of YG is by far the most gifted loud speaker designer in the world today. His Cross over technology is proprietary and special to YG. His new Sonja XV flagship has surpassed the Q7MK 2 and probably the more overpriced and limited WAMM.

In terms of proprietary relevant technology in my opinion of course. Sound of course I feel in the end so matter what the cost is still subjective to the customer.

Love both Magico and YG. I feel one can't go wrong with either. They have certainly surpassed Wilson as far an American made dynamic driver loudspeaker companies.

All 3 are laterals IMO, so my version ..?

WA, Magico and YG are fantastic made American Dynamic speakers , you cant go wrong selecting one or the other ...





Regards ...

[asiufy]

I've installed my share of Carmel 2s (and Carmel 1s as well), and I've found out they are true chameleons. Depending on the room and positioning, they could sound very full and punchy, or thin and brittle. And surprisingly, the usual audiophile knowledge didn't apply, as I tried them along the long wall in one of our smaller rooms, thinking that would give us the best bass, and they just didn't.

Adam, did you have a dealer install and position them for you?

In our (much) larger main room, with the speakers 3 meters from the back wall, they had a lot more bass! I've actually had people A/B the Carmel 2s and the Hailey in that same (big) room, and the person picked the Carmel 2. Of course we all heard the Haileys had more bass, but the Carmel 2s had enough bass for him.

Here's a video I shot of the Carmel 2s playing in our big room:

https://www.facebook.com/AlmaMusicAu...4124373744698/

PS: to be fair, I've also heard the Magico S1 (not mk2), and I thought it was a great speaker. Much better than the Q1, for instance.

[a.wayne]

Thought you would be in Rio about now ...... Big sound , from the video ...

[Elberoth]

The Carmel 2 drops of after 50Hz. But that is not the problem and should be expected from the speaker of this size. The problem is bass shelving from 125Hz downward. Because of that, thay sound unbalanced in my listening room.

Believe it or not, but the super tiny Harbeths P3-PSR and ATC SCM-11 (both sealed box designs) both sounded like much bigger, better balanced speakers in my room.

YGs sound very lightweight (but not bright) and I just can't enjoy listening to music because of that.

They remind me of NHT Super Zeros (with 4 inch midwoofer and 1-2 liters of internal volume) - impressive mids and soundstaging, but no substance to the sound. Of course, they go much louder than the NHTs because of the larger woofer, but the unmistakeable lightweight signature remains.

I would very much like to hear the larger Heileys, with an extra 8-inch woofer, as otherwise those YGs show promise mids and up.

[asiufy]

Since we're quoting from reviews, reviewers and their imperfect rooms...

Chris Martens, for Hi-Fi+ (on the cover): http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/yg-...g-loudspeaker/
"For a speaker that is not terribly large in volume, the Carmel 2 demonstrates truly astonishing power handling capabilities and vibrant, full-bodied dynamics. It also belies its modest size by serving up surprisingly deep, powerful, and extended bass. You can happily play rhythmic and percussion-orientated material through the Carmel 2, such as the bouncy, funky, and appropriately named ‘Bass and Drums’ from John Paul Jones’ Zooma [Discipline Global Mobile] without feeling any need for a subwoofer or larger speaker. Crank up the volume to realistic levels and the Carmel 2 just grins and plays along, typically taking anything you might care to play in its stride. The same holds true when playing pipe organ material rich in low-frequency content, which the Carmel 2 happily reproduces with powerful and shuddering depth tempered by an excellent measure of control."
"Such impressive performance should not be all that surprising given two factors in the Carmel 2’s design. First, the speaker’s drivers and especially its crossover network were developed with high power-handling in mind, and second Carmel 2’s usable bass response extends all the way down to 32Hz, which counts as genuinely low bass by any rational standard. Unless you like listening to subsonic blasts at near deafening levels, you should find that the Carmel 2 serves admirably as a satisfyingly full range loudspeaker—or at least it does when used in mid-sized rooms like mine."

Also:

Carmel™ 2 appears on the front cover of the August-September 2015 issue of Canada HiFi.
Inside is an excellent review, which can also be found online here.
The writer gave YG Acoustics™ the highest honor, by purchasing the review pair for his own reference system.
A sample comment from the article: “I tried Bach’s Passacaglia and Fugue to see how well the Carmel would fare on deep organ notes, and I could not have wanted for more. The whole room was energized.”

and another:


Enjoy the Music has published an excellent review of Carmel™ 2. The article can be found here.
Reviewer Phil Gold concluded the test by stating "I just have to keep this pair", and purchased the speakers.
Mr. Gold is one of eleven reviewers worldwide who have purchased YG Acoustics™ speakers for their reference systems, a number that we are very proud of.
Additional comments by Mr. Gold: "I love how YG Acoustics have managed to keep the wonderful qualities of the Carmel but add so much to the lower frequency articulation, the midrange clarity, the openness of the upper frequencies and the overall level of realism."
"I found myself completely unable to play short excerpts, the sound so captivating I simply had to play it through to the end. One moment passionate, the next haunting and then almost frightening, this is an amazing test of a system's ability to reproduce instrumental color and the most intricate detail." “Serious weight, presence, impact, clarity. Even in the deep bass and all the way up to the top registers” “…lower frequency articulation, the midrange clarity, the openness of the upper frequencies and the overall level of realism …I just have to keep this pair.”

[asiufy]

Adam, I don't doubt your results. I only ask you not to doubt mine (and the reviewer's!).
As I said, they are true chameleons. I've faced situations/rooms where we had to work a little harder for the bass to show up. That's why I asked if you had dealer help in setting them up.

[a.wayne]

Speaking of reviews :

The Carmel 2's voltage sensitivity is specified as 87dB/2.83V/m; my estimate was less than that, at 84dB(B)/2.83V/m. The impedance is specified as 4 ohms, with a minimum magnitude of 3.5 ohms. Fig.1 shows my measurement of the YGA's impedance magnitude (solid trace) and electrical phase angle (dotted). The impedance drops below 4 ohms only between 150 and 400Hz, and the minimum value is 3.68 ohms at 220Hz. While the phase angle is occasionally high, the amplitude is also high at those frequencies, ameliorating any problems. Note the increasingly capacitive phase angle below the sealed-box woofer-tuning frequency of 60Hz, which suggests there is a high-value series capacitor in the woofer feed.

Serious amplification necessary, it's actually 81dB/w/M ..... !!

Aside Very impressive measurements ...!!!


Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/y...ERM2gTCUtCR.99

[a.wayne]

The Carmel 2 drops of after 50Hz. But that is not the problem and should be expected from the speaker of this size. The problem is bass shelving from 125Hz downward. Because of that, thay sound unbalanced in my listening room.

Believe it or not, but the super tiny Harbeths P3-PSR and ATC SCM-11 (both sealed box designs) both sounded like much bigger, better balanced speakers in my room.

YGs sound very lightweight (but not bright) and I just can't enjoy listening to music because of that.

They remind me of NHT Super Zeros (with 4 inch midwoofer and 1-2 liters of internal volume) - impressive mids and soundstaging, but no substance to the sound. Of course, they go much louder than the NHTs because of the larger woofer, but the unmistakeable lightweight signature remains.

I would very much like to hear the larger Heileys, with an extra 8-inch woofer, as otherwise those YGs show promise mids and up.

I see you still have the MSB202, did you try the YG's with them ...?

[KeithR]

The Hailey is a fantastic speaker. I really feel its the best in the line as its easier to drive than the Sonjas.

[Elberoth]

I see you still have the MSB202, did you try the YG's with them ...?

Correct. They are:

>200W into 8 Ohms
>400W into 4 Ohms
>800W into 2 Ohms

and had successfully drove my old Wilsons Sasha with their 1.8 Ohm impedance dip.

I would be very much surprised if they were not up to the task.

[a.wayne]

Ohh me too, I would have thought them very much up to the task , hence why i asked to see if the amplification was the reason for the thin sound ..


Regards ...

[Elberoth]

I will dig out my mic and will take some measurements to see of how do they compare to other speakers I have measured in my room and maybe I will be able to get some bass reinforcements from a placement closer to the wall behind them.

[asiufy]

I don't think it's the amp, as we've driven big Sonjas with the stereo MSB amp just fine.
A proper dealer install would've helped determine whether they'd work in your room or not...
Oh, I'd also remove (if possible) any and all room treatments you might've added for other speakers. Find the best spot for the bass, then bring stuff back if and when needed.

[Elberoth]

I have played with them today some more. I have moved them back to the front wall, reducing the distance from 4 to 2 feet, but that didn't help. I didn't want to go any further, as that always impairs the soundstaging in my room. Repositioning them closer to the back wall didn't help much and didn't change the basic character of the speakers.

As hours have passed, I have also noticed another thing which started to bother me - a certain prominence around 2-3k region. At first I though the Carmels sounded more lively than the S1 mk 2, but then I noticed this prominence, which highlighted the instruments' leading edges. It was also noted by John Atkinson in his review, who noted a slight excess of energy evident in the mid-treble.

IMO the S1 mk 2 are much better balanced overall (no bass shelving and mid-treble prominence), sound more natural throughout the midrange, have smoother highs, more resolution, go lower in the bass, have better soundstaging (esp. soundstage depth) and cost 1/3 less.

That said, there was one thing I liked more in the Carmels. They can play pretty loud without having to worry about the bass drivers bottoming out. That was the problem I had with the S1s. Play a deep bass impulse loud enough (say bass whacks from Braveheart soundtrack) and the drivers would bottom out. It was as if the S1s were trying too hard, digging too low. The Carmels on the other hand just don't do the lowest bass, with the lowest impulses beeing gently compressed as if the bass driver was self limiting.

That puts the Carmels in really difficoult position, especially if you consider the fact that the much bigger Magico S3 mk 2 (and more capable) are almost the same price as the Carmels ...

[mdp632]

Yes but, when you consider the S1 Mk2 are shipped via cardboard and YGs are crated. The YGs have a slightly higher fit and finish more like a Q series than an S. Remember YG has only one line where as Magico has two. I assume M will replace Q.

Magico at least my personal experience in the US is dealers won't discount anything on these speakers. Silly in my opinion these are speakers not custom exotic cars. There has to be some margin.

But most importantly is the Dual Coherent Crossover which is exclusive to YG.

A mechanical time-coherent alignment of drivers, like Wilson, Magico and YG Acoustics all do, is designed to match the drivers' relative phase at the exact crossover frequency. However, it cannot match their phase across anything more than a single frequency.

DualCoherent is in addition to this - a circuit that makes sure that the relative phase is near-zero not just at the crossover frequency, but across the drivers' entire overlap-range which is much wider than a single frequency.
Therefore, for a truly phase-coherent design one needs both: accurate mechanical alignment of the drivers to match them at the crossover frequency, and the DualCoherent crossover to expand that phase-match so that it covers the entire overlap.

[Elberoth]

I agree that the YG finish is more expensive, which at least partially explains the price difference. I was only reporting on what I've heard in my room. Others may have been more successful.

[bonzo]

Adam, my experience is more with Haileys than with Carmels, but I noted that excess of leading edge in all rooms except in Paris where it was paired with a Luxman m900u where they were superbly musical. The other pairings were mainly with Burmesters and Boulder. I suspect some sort of cable/power/amp combo can eliminate it. Paris it was like Quads/stats with more bass and slam. Yes it can do with subs in bigger rooms so I suspect the Carmels will need them.

I have played with them today some more. I have moved them back to the front wall, reducing the distance from 4 to 2 feet, but that didn't help. I didn't want to go any further, as that always impairs the soundstaging in my room. Repositioning them closer to the back wall didn't help much and didn't change the basic character of the speakers.

As hours have passed, I have also noticed another thing which started to bother me - a certain prominence around 2-3k region. At first I though the Carmels sounded more lively than the S1 mk 2, but then I noticed this prominence, which highlighted the instruments' leading edges. It was also noted by John Atkinson in his review, who noted a slight excess of energy evident in the mid-treble.

IMO the S1 mk 2 are much better balanced overall (no bass shelving and mid-treble prominence), sound more natural throughout the midrange, have smoother highs, more resolution, go lower in the bass, have better soundstaging (esp. soundstage depth) and cost 1/3 less.

That said, there was one thing I liked more in the Carmels. They can play pretty loud without having to worry about the bass drivers bottoming out. That was the problem I had with the S1s. Play a deep bass impulse loud enough (say bass whacks from Braveheart soundtrack) and the drivers would bottom out. It was as if the S1s were trying too hard, digging too low. The Carmels on the other hand just don't do the lowest bass, with the lowest impulses beeing gently compressed as if the bass driver was self limiting.

That puts the Carmels in really difficoult position, especially if you consider the fact that the much bigger Magico S3 mk 2 (and more capable) are almost the same price as the Carmels ...

[mdp632]

Do you think think that the YGs are more sensitive to to the upstream than other speakers? Could a more neutral cable/amp and or combo could eliminate such leading edges you spoke of?