Phono Stages with selectable EQ Curves (RIAA, Decca, Columbia, etc.) ?

[FlexibleAudio]

Is it a coincidence that phono/line stages of the 1960's almost always had rumble, bass, treble and loudness controls? Is Yamada-son just filling the gap left by the advent of purist designs started in the 1970's?

[mep]

Is it a coincidence that phono/line stages of the 1960's almost always had rumble, bass, treble and loudness controls? Is Yamada-son just filling the gap left by the advent of purist designs started in the 1970's?

I don't think it's a coincidence. I think on average, the engineers we had designing audio products in the 1950s and 1960s were much better than the average engineers we have now. If the engineers from yesteryear had access to high-speed HEXFREDs, big storage capacitors, the much better resistors and film caps we have now, who knows what they would have come up with.

[FlexibleAudio]

I don't think it's a coincidence. I think on average, the engineers we had designing audio products in the 1950s and 1960s were much better than the average engineers we have now. If the engineers from yesteryear had access to high-speed HEXFREDs, big storage capacitors, the much better resistors and film caps we have now, who knows what they would have come up with.

The average engineers may have been better then, but at the end of the bell curve I give it to today's crew (there is some incredible stuff out there), but admittedly its hard to tell given they certainly have better toys to play with in their sand box today.

[mep]

We basically put a man on the moon with slide rulers and it was certainly no different with audio engineers. Imagine if they had the tools at their disposal we have now.

[FlexibleAudio]

We basically put a man on the moon with slide rulers and it was certainly no different with audio engineers. Imagine if they had the tools at their disposal we have now.

Slide rulers and vacuum tubes.

[BlueFox]

Slide rulers and vacuum tubes.

And a pressurized tin can.

[wisnon]

Is it a coincidence that phono/line stages of the 1960's almost always had rumble, bass, treble and loudness controls? Is Yamada-son just filling the gap left by the advent of purist designs started in the 1970's?

Manuale Huber in his chat did say that it took about 10 years after introduction to get most pressers to conform to RIAA standards, so many of the post RIAA albums are NOT conforming and you have to build enuff flexibility in your phonostage to be able to accomodate for this. There are very few "givens" in this.

[FlexibleAudio]

Manuale Huber in his chat did say that it took about 10 years after introduction to get most pressers to conform to RIAA standards, so many of the post RIAA albums are NOT conforming and you have to build enuff flexibility in your phonostage to be able to accomodate for this. There are very few "givens" in this.

Now that makes sense to me. It seems to me studio execution versus Standard adherence is the issue at hand. Regardless, if you love the stereo stuff from the late 50's and early 60's, maximum flexibility on tone control is essential no matter what you call it. (All dogma aside.)

[MikeCh]

Thanks for all the informative postings gentlemen! Great content for those of us concerned about historic Phono EQ curves in general.

[MikeCh]

Sentec EQ11

Neil, do you own the Sentec EQ11? I've read the review in the Stereophile Oct 2014 issue and for the money it seems to have a great selection of curve options but since the review wasn't too detailed, not much was mentioned of it's sonic attributes.

Does anyone else here own one and/or have any of you listened to this unit? Opinions?

Thanks.

[NeilNZ]

Yep I sure do, that's my one pictured. It is a very nice phonostage, not as good as the one in my Masseto, but definitely good. The different curves are subtle, but like Herb mentioned in his review, when you use the correct one it just sounds right.

They are pretty low production, but talk to Jonathan at Tone Imports, he will help you out.

[MikeCh]

Thanks Neil.

What cartridge do you use with the Sentec? Do you find a need for a SUT if using a MC cart and if so, what does that do to the noise floor?

[NeilNZ]

At the moment I am just using a humble Ortofon 2M 78 with it. No need for a sut with that due to it being an MM cart. You can adjust the gain of the Sentec by changing the tubes you use. From memory with 6189 tubes you get 30dB of gain and with 12AT7s you get 40dB.

[wisnon]

Dunno about EQs, but Serge's phono pres are highly regarded. I must call him up and accept his long standing open invitation to visit and he even said dinner is on him!
News - News

Anyone here with direct experience?

[MikeCh]

At the moment I am just using a humble Ortofon 2M 78 with it. No need for a sut with that due to it being an MM cart. You can adjust the gain of the Sentec by changing the tubes you use. From memory with 6189 tubes you get 30dB of gain and with 12AT7s you get 40dB.

Have you ever tried it with a stereo cart and used the RIAA setting for more modern records?

Whatever phono section (with EQ options) I eventually end up with will need to ideally work with Moving Coil carts in the .4mv arena +/- for both stereo and mono carts. Right now I'm running the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze and Mono on two different arms that I swap on my VPI Classic 2. I'm not completely opposed to using an SUT if the phono stage must require it, but I'd rather not if I don't have to.

Thanks for the additional info about the tube gain Neil.

[NeilNZ]

I did try it briefly with my EMT and concluded that it wasn't a patch on my Masseto. Better than my Fi Yph though I thought. I've always preferred suts to actve mc stages. I used to use a Grace GS10 sut with a Grace F10L cart into a pretty basic Plinius 8200 integrateds phono stage and it was great at the time. Transformers just do something really nice to my ears.

[barretter]

And Mikey can claim all he wants that Deccas and Londons sound the same. All it takes one listen to hear the difference. Something was changed in the pressing or manufacturing that the engineers don't realize. Lacquers? Type of vinyl for making the records?

All I know friends and I have compared multiple pressing of at least 50 Decca/London releases and they simply don't sound the same. And there are three or four things one needs to know regarding the matrix to understand vintage. What I can say is that in most cases, the earlier the pressing, the better the sound.

Since Decca and London pressings were made at the same time on the same presses in New Malden and the only difference was the label, if the discs have the same matrix numbers they won't sound different. It's very easy to convince yourself that there is a difference if that is your preconception.
As to Columbia, if you read the booklet in their stereo demonstration disc of 1958 "Listening in depth : an introduction to Columbia stereophonic sound" (SF1), you will find the statement that the "..recording characteristic which is standard throughout the industry...[is the].. R.I.A.A. standard [which] applies to the stereophonic disc record and conventional records". This is in the section entitled "The equalization of reproducers". I find it improbable that that the company would make such a statement and then continue to use a different standard.
And, from at least 1962, the DIN standard for stereophonic discs is exactly the same as the RIAA standard.

[MikeCh]

Incoming Sentec EQ-11. Yay!

[mep]

Incoming Sentec EQ-11. Yay!

Let us know how it's packed when you receive it.

[MikeCh]

Let us know how it's packed when you receive it.

Will do! LOL

[NeilNZ]

Nice one! I love mine.

[MikeCh]

Nice one! I love mine.

The Sentec EQ-11 paired with the A23 SPU SUT and my Cadenza Bronze is magic....I've only listened with the RIAA curve so far.

Looking forward to listening to the Cadenza Mono with the various curves enabled.

I'm now a believer in high quality SUT's, there's something very attractive going on with the A23 step-up....

[FlexibleAudio]

Soon come!

Myles did you ever get Nick's phono to review????

[Myles B. Astor]

Myles did you ever get Nick's phono to review????

Good question. I kind of put off reviewing the new unit being so busy with other projects and Nick was making as many as he could sell.

Funny thing though. Recently called Nick to ask him if he would participate on the R2R panel at Axpona and we re-opened the conversation about reviewing the phono stage. So if the moon, sun and stars are in correct alignment, I should be getting the unit Nick will have at Axpona for review. This phono stage will come with remote control loading, 1024 loading settings as well as the ability to switch remotely between three different setting, the ability to set azimuth using the meters on the front of the unit, etc. Nick says this version is better than the prototype he last showed at Axpona.

[Loop4fun]

AMR PH-77.
I've been told it is now out of production. There is one on AGon I'd REALLY love to have, but my Lyra Erodion SUT into the Giscours' phono stage would be hard to better. I'd buy it otherwise.

[FlexibleAudio]

Good question. I kind of put off reviewing the new unit being so busy with other projects and Nick was making as many as he could sell.

Funny thing though. Recently called Nick to ask him if he would participate on the R2R panel at Axpona and we re-opened the conversation about reviewing the phono stage. So if the moon, sun and stars are in correct alignment, I should be getting the unit Nick will have at Axpona for review. This phono stage will come with remote control loading, 1024 loading settings as well as the ability to switch remotely between three different setting, the ability to set azimuth using the meters on the front of the unit, etc. Nick says this version is better than the prototype he last showed at Axpona.

Thanks Myles. I will be rooting for astrological cooperation.

[allvinyl]

I see that's its been a while since this thread had received any attention but I'm still going to give it a go...

Having just returned from Axpona 2019 and participating in the GT Audio Works/Sound Insight/Zanden room I want to contribute that I listened extensively to 2 Zanden phono stages, both of which offer 5 EQ curves. I was gobsmacked by what I learned from the direct experience. I have read about it over the years, but until you experience it first-hand it can easily be dismissed. I'm encouraging all vinylphiles to seek out a demo!

Though I was among a group of 4 dedicated audiophiles which limited my access to our sources, (Esoteric CD, Kronos Sparta/ZYX 4D Ultimate/Hi-Res digital) we shared the play time. I played a variety of vinyl that I hoped would educate me about all aspects of our system. As a recent purchaser of the speaker system I already had a decent, but still growing, understanding of its capabilities. The TT and electronics took me by surprise and its greatest impact was a result of EQ curve application to the variety of LPs we all played over the 4 days. Eric, the Zanden distributor, utilized a list compiled by the company to guide us as we individually submitted all genre of vinyl delights to the (GTT Audio provided) Kronos Sparta platform. Again and again, starting with RIAA and then switching to a better matching curve allowed everyone in the room to understand the benefits of matching the production of the particular pressing to its appropriated EQ curve. I am still processing the effect and, because of that, will have to defer further comment. Upon returning home I am now listening to my own collection wondering about the possibilities...

[MikeCh]

Hi,

Thanks for the information about the Zanden phono amps. Which models did you spend time with? I've always always wanted to hear them.

I'm still very happy with the humble Sentec EQ-11 for both mono and stereo applications paired with A23 SUT. The mono curves are a delight with Miyajima Zero.

[stump]

I have been using the Line Magnetic 129 phono for a few years.I dont own any early pressing to utilize the EQ Curves but do play around when playing Live LPs

[XV-1]

Looks cool Stump. can you use the different curves as eq?

[stump]

Yes XV-1 .The one I like brings the voice forward and increase of the mids.Some make more difference then others.I wouldn't get one just for that reason.I might pick up some 78 RPM one day to try it out....
Stump

[MikeCh]

Yes XV-1 .The one I like brings the voice forward and increase of the mids.Some make more difference then others.I wouldn't get one just for that reason.I might pick up some 78 RPM one day to try it out....
Stump

Alternatively, pick up a few different Record labels' 1950's (up to mid 1960's) 33 1/3 mono offerings from Columbia, Capitol and Decca. These will let you play with the various curves and demonstrate the differences compared to RIAA/New Ortho.

[vortrex]

Thoress Phono Enhancer has EQ adjustment, but not pre-defined curves.

[ShindoSynergy]

The McIntosh MP1100 phono stage offers 5 EQ curves, 3 inputs and a very low noise floor.

[joeinid]

Welcome!