Anyone Hear the New .8 Amps Yet

[madfloyd]

Ian,

I hope you don't mind me copying your extremely well written post below from another forum. A very descriptive piece.



Thank you Ian and, again, I hope I didn't violate a protocol. I really felt you did a great job with your post and many would appreciate your thoughts.

No problem - I meant to post those thoughts in this thread too, but I must have got distracted - so thanks!

Someone just used what I think the best word is to describe the bass of the .8's: 'heavy'. It's an asset with some material and an annoyance with others.

I had another audiophile friend over yesterday to compare the two amps. He ran through his own playlist (mostly rock) without knowing which amp was connected (all 4 amps were on and you can't see the connections from the listening chair). We started with the .5's. I then switched them without him looking and he ran through the playlist again. Afterwards I asked him what his thoughts were and this is a summary:

- Neither amps gave him the soundstage depth that he was used to from his own system (and that probably doesn't have anything to do with the amps).
- He preferred the 2nd amp more overall (.8's) because it has more 'meat on the bones' except for one thing: he preferred the 'treble' of the .5's because it was more present. He didn't know if the more fleshy presentation of the .8's was making the highs stand out less or whether there were less highs.

[Design Audio Video]

Hey guy's

Keep in mind that these are just opinions from two guys that have been around audio for a long time. Both have owned many brands including Pass and one still does. The Pass is definitely not burned in but the flavor of the amp will not change after 500 hours. It will be just an improved version of the Pass sound. As for doing multiple comparisons I think this is the best way. With each change out the differences were the most obvious the first minute of operation. The longer you listened it became harder to tell the differences, at least for me. If this were a race you could throw a blanket over all four brands at the finish line.. It really just comes down to your listening tastes, speakers and listening environment. I think the fact that pass is even mentioned in the same conversation of electronics that cost three times as much speaks volumes for its performance. Just my opinion of course and do not want to offend any owners of these fine brands.

[Mike]

Well said David.

[madfloyd]

Well said David.

+1

[MDP]

Very well said !!

[socfan12]

Very well said !!

+1!

[dfwmediagroup]

Say Madfloyd, has the bass on your XA160.8's gotten better with break-in? Any tighter or leaner now?

[madfloyd]

It's pretty tight, but still very prominent. I've decided to buy it because the midrange is really nice, but I'm hoping to come up with a solution to tame the bass. Hopefully it doesn't require changing speakers or preamp.

[PeterA]

Congratulations, Ian. I'll offer to buy the XP30.

[LL21]

It's pretty tight, but still very prominent. I've decided to buy it because the midrange is really nice, but I'm hoping to come up with a solution to tame the bass. Hopefully it doesn't require changing speakers or preamp.

Big congrats!!! That is great news. I feel confident as you get to know your new system, you will find ways to adjust the sound as you like. have you thought about Ultra 5s back underneath the Alexias by any chance? I am sure there are other ways as well.

Again, big congrats!!!

[Mike]

I'm hoping to come up with a solution to tame the bass. Hopefully it doesn't require changing speakers or preamp.

Ian - add this: http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/20-dual-core.shtml

Thank me later.

Mine worked marvels for taming the bass hump. You don't need to add subs. This by itself worked to tame the bass in my room. It didn't affect dynamics or SQ at all. All good. No bad. Love it!

Mike



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[madfloyd]

Thanks, guys.

Lloyd: I do want to try the Stillpoints under the Alexias again at some point. I now have a bunch of adapters that I'll be able to switch them in/out. Currently I have them under the .8's where I think they made a big improvement but I will probably take them out and see if I wasn't imagining it. I did order some amp stands too.

I'm not in a rush for the Stillpoints under the Alexias because I thought they loosened up the deepest frequencies. But hey, further experimentation is probably warranted.

Peter: you won't get my XP-30 if I trade it in for the XS pre.... (OK, admittedly that won't ever happen )

[madfloyd]

Ian - add this: DSPeaker-Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core

Thank me later.

Mine worked marvels for taming the bass hump. You don't need to add subs. This by itself worked to tame the bass in my room. It didn't affect dynamics or SQ at all. All good. No bad. Love it!

Mike



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Hmm, and you find it transparent with the extra ADC/DAC conversion? How much is the unit?

[Mike]

Hmm, and you find it transparent with the extra ADC/DAC conversion? How much is the unit?

Absolutely, because only the lower frequencies (150hz down) are "tweaked". I've listened hard and AB for vocals, cymbals, you name it. I heard nothing change - only the bass. If anything, vocals improved because the mid-bass that appears to be a floor/ceiling node in my room wasn't muddying it up.

$1200 USD I believe.

Bass nodes are a buggar to control due to their length. You have the option of very expensive tube traps - which will help some. You can add subs and a crossover - which helps some. Or you can fix the damn problem with this black box.

BEFORE DSPeaker 2.0 Dual Core:

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1395785308.177314.jpg

AFTER DSPeaker 2.0 Dual Core:

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1395785347.697076.jpg


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[madfloyd]

Interesting. The cost goes up another $8k when you add in an extra pair of interconnects...

[LL21]

Thanks, guys.

Lloyd: I do want to try the Stillpoints under the Alexias again at some point. I now have a bunch of adapters that I'll be able to switch them in/out. Currently I have them under the .8's where I think they made a big improvement but I will probably take them out and see if I wasn't imagining it. I did order some amp stands too.

I'm not in a rush for the Stillpoints under the Alexias because I thought they loosened up the deepest frequencies. But hey, further experimentation is probably warranted.

Peter: you won't get my XP-30 if I trade it in for the XS pre.... (OK, admittedly that won't ever happen )

Ian - can I make a suggestion perhaps you do NOT try to remove the Stillpoints from under your .8s? The take a bit of time to 'get stuck' underneath...the Distributor thought it might have something to do with the ceramic material...who knows. Just concerned when I have moved equipment on the Stillpoints, fractions matter (ughhh) and it can be a real exercise in patience to get them back exactly as they were.

It's of course your system...I am just saying you've already put yourself thru a lot of trials. If you are convinced they helped .8s...I say let sleeping dogs lie for now. And perhaps just focus on bass taming in speaker placement, isolation underneath...

[Mike]

Interesting. The cost goes up another $8k when you add in an extra pair of interconnects...

What IC's are you using? Gold plated? Stick the dual core next to your preamp and get the shortest run (.5 or 1 meter for shelf below)? I'm using some WW eclipse I had laying around. IC's have the least impact on sound IMO. Get a short Shunyata run and you're set.


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[MDP]

Congrats Ian !!

Good luck tuning your system !

[madfloyd]

Ian - can I make a suggestion perhaps you do NOT try to remove the Stillpoints from under your .8s? The take a bit of time to 'get stuck' underneath...the Distributor thought it might have something to do with the ceramic material...who knows. Just concerned when I have moved equipment on the Stillpoints, fractions matter (ughhh) and it can be a real exercise in patience to get them back exactly as they were.

It's of course your system...I am just saying you've already put yourself thru a lot of trials. If you are convinced they helped .8s...I say let sleeping dogs lie for now. And perhaps just focus on bass taming in speaker placement, isolation underneath...

I will heed your advice - at least until my amp stands arrive in which case I'd have to move them anyway.

Thx.

[madfloyd]

What IC's are you using? Gold plated? Stick the dual core next to your preamp and get the shortest run (.5 or 1 meter for shelf below)? I'm using some WW eclipse I had laying around. IC's have the least impact on sound IMO. Get a short Shunyata run and you're set.


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Transparent Ref XL. They cost a small fortune but I can hear the difference...

[madfloyd]

Congrats Ian !!

Good luck tuning your system !

Thanks, Mark!

[Mike]

Transparent Ref XL. They cost a small fortune but I can hear the difference...

I didn't think Transparent XLR's were that expensive (compared to their Speaker cable).


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[Design Audio Video]

Ian

How long do your IC's need to be from pre to amp?

[LL21]

I will heed your advice - at least until my amp stands arrive in which case I'd have to move them anyway.

Thx.

Good luck...which amp stands?

[Mike]

Ian - do you have any other IC's you can try?


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[LL21]

I didn't think Transparent XLR's were that expensive (compared to their Speaker cable).


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They're not as expensive as their SCs...but they're still very expensive. SCs are 12K+ and ICs balanced are more expensive than their SE counterparts because the balanced Transparent cables have 2 network boxes each. As Ian says, about $8K I guess.

[Mike]

They're not as expensive as their SCs...but they're still very expensive. SCs are 12K+ and ICs balanced are more expensive than their SE counterparts because the balanced Transparent cables have 2 network boxes each. As Ian says, about $8K I guess.

And that could be part of the problem....Transparent cables are known for rolling off the highs and pumping up the bass. That's what the little box does. I would encourage Ian to try (as in borrow) IC's and speaker cables that affect the overall sound a little less.


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[mdkim]

Congratz on the 0.8s! I've heard the Pass/Wilson combo is excellent.

[dfwmediagroup]

Anybody ask Pass Labs if the new amps have a bass hump? I personally owned an X350.5 for about a year and it didn't have a bass issue. One of my good friends has a pair of XA200.5's and they control the bottom end as good as anything I've heard.

[mdkim]

Anybody ask Pass Labs if the new amps have a bass hump? I personally owned an X350.5 for about a year and it didn't have a bass issue. One of my good friends has a pair of XA200.5's and they control the bottom end as good as anything I've heard.

I've spent time with the 160.5s and now the Xs150s and would not say there is a "hump" or any bass exaggeration. But, the high current and architecture, IMO, makes Pass a far cry from bass shy or "lean." Now that I've experienced it over time, I find it difficult to listen to a system that doesn't share Pass' "fullness."

[madfloyd]

I've spent time with the 160.5s and now the Xs150s and would not say there is a "hump" or any bass exaggeration. But, the high current and architecture, IMO, makes Pass a far cry from bass shy or "lean." Now that I've experienced it over time, I find it difficult to listen to a system that doesn't share Pass' "fullness."

Your last statement seems to match what Pass said to me yesterday:

"The Point 8 amps are definitely closer to the Xs amps than the Point 5's.
There is a lot more bass information with the Point 8 amps and it may seem a little much in the beginning but once you listen for a while, you will notice that it provides a solid foundation for the music that you will miss if you don't have it."

[Mike]

Pass amps are in the house! Let the shootout begin!!

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1395939670.755520.jpg

A friend loaned me his 100.5's.


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[dfwmediagroup]

Look forward to your assessment. What preamp will you be running them with?

[joeinid]

Very cool Mike!

What goes around comes around, sort of. Looking forward to your opinion!

Pass amps are in the house! Let the shootout begin!!

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1395939670.755520.jpg

A friend loaned me his 100.5's.


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[Mike]

Look forward to your assessment. What preamp will you be running them with?

Cary, Dag and Mc. My friend Charles uses an ARC REF5SE.


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[the professor]

Sounds like fun!

[dfwmediagroup]

One cautionary note. The XA100.5 sounds different from the newer .8 series. I know because I've heard both.

[Mike]

One cautionary note. The XA100.5 sounds different from the newer .8 series. I know because I've heard both.

Me too...and I agree. But I want to hear Pass XA with Alexia's. I'm trying to understand what Ian is hearing or not hearing. Hopefully some .8's will come my way for review soon.


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[PeterA]

One cautionary note. The XA100.5 sounds different from the newer .8 series. I know because I've heard both.

I agree, at least for the XA160s. And the XA160.5 sounds different from the XA100.5. I compared both in my system driving the difficult Magico Mini2 and the 160.5 was considerably better: improved bass control, extension and much more effortless sound. Much more power and current into the 4 ohm load. The Alexia is a more difficult load than even the Mini2 is. That impedance dip around 1.5 ohms or so was too much for the XA160.5 that Ian had, at least in his larger, open room.

I have heard Ian's Alexia with the D'Agostino stereo amp, the Doshi monos, and the XA160.8. The latter is the only one of the three that can drive the speaker properly in his room, IMO.

I'll be interested to read what Mike thinks about the XA100.5 driving his Alexias. Room size, volume, and type of music may also be factors.

[PeterA]

Me too...and I agree. But I want to hear Pass XA with Alexia's. I'm trying to understand what Ian is hearing or not hearing. Hopefully some .8's will come my way for review soon.


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Mike I bet those XA100.5 would sound great with the Magico S5 and Pass XP15 phono. Any interest in trying that combination also?

You may also want to borrow a Pass preamp, if your friend has one, to get a bit closer to what Ian has right now. The D'Ag and Cary preamps may effect the results with the Alexias.

[Mike]

Mike I bet those XA100.5 would sound great with the Magico S5 and Pass XP15 phono. Any interest in trying that combination also?

You may also want to borrow a Pass preamp, if your friend has one, to get a bit closer to what Ian has right now. The D'Ag and Cary preamps may effect the results with the Alexias.

Peter - the S5's are all crated up ready to go to their new owner. But yes, Pass and Magico is great synergy. Michael Kim loves the combo as does Ian.

[The Sandman]

My XA160.8s will be here late next week. Then it'll be my turn to do a little comparison with the XA160.5s (with my XP-30 preamp and Magico s5s).

[Mike]

Well, the Pass amps have gone home. We had a thoroughly enjoyable day comparing the various amps and preamps at our disposal. My friend was most interested in comparing his Pass XA100.5's to the Cary amps. At the end of the day, the Cary amps offered more air around the instruments, SLIGHTLY better/sweeter vocals and a much greater dynamic presentation. The Pass amps offered a very "meaty" - full sound - much like the McIntosh 601's, with a slight sweetness and a much sweeter, fuller midrange than the 601's (but not quite as good as the Cary). The Pass amps exhibited the same loose/puffy bass control I remembered from when I owned the XA160.5's. Going from memory of my long listening sessions at CES, the Pass XA.8's offer greater dynamics and better bass control over their predecessor. I kept thinking today, "boy, I wonder how the .8's would sound in my system."

The one thing we uncovered was the terrific synergy between the Pass XA100.5's and the Cary SLP-05 preamp. What a great combination!! My friend Charles might be on to something with his tube preamp pairing with his XA100.5's.

We briefly compared with the D'Agostino amp/preamp. The D'Agostino once again exhibited the same great dynamics and bass control with a degree of sweetness they always do. But alas, this combo is out of reach for my friend....so we listened only briefly.

At the end of the day, the Pass amps reminded me very much of my McIntosh 601's. Oh, so musical and enjoyable to listen to. Where the Pass betters the 601's in the midrange, the 601's offer slightly better dynamics. But both the 601's and XA100.5's are the type of "set and forget" amps I love. They both engage the "musical" side of your brain and park the "audiophile sound" side of your brain quietly at the curb. If you find yourself listening until the wee hours of the morning totally engrossed in the music, chances are you will have an amp like the 601's or XA100.5's accompanying you.

I definitely think the XA100.8's or 160.8's would be fun to try in my system and I hope I get that chance one day.

[MDP]

Thanks for sharing Mike, sounds like you guys had a good time !!

[PeterA]

Well, the Pass amps have gone home. We had a thoroughly enjoyable day comparing the various amps and preamps at our disposal. My friend was most interested in comparing his Pass XA100.5's to the Cary amps. At the end of the day, the Cary amps offered more air around the instruments, SLIGHTLY better vocals and a much great dynamic presentation. The Pass amps offered a very "meaty" - full sound - much like the McIntosh 601's, with a slight sweetness and a much sweeter, fuller midrange than the 601's (but not as good as the Cary). The Pass amps exhibited the same loose/puffy bass control I remembered from when I owned the XA160.5's. Going from memory of my long listening sessions at CES, the Pass XA.8's offer greater dynamics and better bass control over their predecessor. I kept thinking today, "boy, I wonder how the .8's would sound in my system."

The one thing we uncovered was the terrific synergy between the Pass XA100.5's and the Cary SLP-05 preamp. What a great combination!! My friend Charles might be on to something with his tube preamp pairing with his XA100.5's.

We briefly compared with the D'Agostino amp/preamp. The D'Agostino once again exhibited the same great dynamics and bass control with a degree of sweetness. But alas, this combo is out of reach for my friend....so we listened only briefly.

At the end of the day, the Pass amps reminded me very much of my McIntosh 601's. Oh, so musical and enjoyable to listen to. Where the Pass betters the 601's in the midrange, the 601's offer slightly better dynamics. But both the 601's and XA100.5's are the type of "set and forget" amps I love. They both engage the "musical" side of your brain and park the "audiophile sound" side of your brain quietly at the curb. If you find yourself listening until the wee hours of the morning totally engrossed in the music, chances are you will have an amp like the 601's or XA100.5's accompanying you.

I definitely think the XA100.8's or 160.8's would be fun to try in my system and I hope I get that chance one day.

Mike - Great report. I agree that Pass is musical sounding, in the sense that they help a system sound like real music - if they are appropriately matched to the speaker load. Did you hear the XA.8 at CES driving the Alexias or were they in the Pass suite driving the Sony speakers? If the latter, then the Sony is a much easier load than the Alexia.

I wonder if the lack of dynamics and bass control that you heard with the XA100.5 driving your Alexias was because they just don't have the power or current to handle such a difficult load. I found this to be the case when I owned these, so I replaced them with the 160.5. I found that both the XA160.5 and XA160.8 are able to drive Ian's Alexia, though the latter certainly controls the bass better and sounds a bit more effortless.

How big is your room and how loud did you listen?

[Mike]

Thanks Peter. My room is 14 feet, 1 inch x 25 feet with 8 foot ceilings. I heard the .8's with the Sony speakers. We weren't listening terribly loud (probably 90db) and the needles on the amps were barely moving.

I loved having the Pass amps back in my system. They are so musical and liquid with that gorgeous midrange.

[PeterA]

My XA160.8s will be here late next week. Then it'll be my turn to do a little comparison with the XA160.5s (with my XP-30 preamp and Magico s5s).

This should be very interesting and I look forward to your report. Pass/Magico is a great combination.

[the professor]

Thanks Mike.

The Cary's are the best kept secret. Escoecially with your tube complement.

[madfloyd]

I agree, at least for the XA160s. And the XA160.5 sounds different from the XA100.5. I compared both in my system driving the difficult Magico Mini2 and the 160.5 was considerably better: improved bass control, extension and much more effortless sound. Much more power and current into the 4 ohm load. The Alexia is a more difficult load than even the Mini2 is. That impedance dip around 1.5 ohms or so was too much for the XA160.5 that Ian had, at least in his larger, open room.

I have heard Ian's Alexia with the D'Agostino stereo amp, the Doshi monos, and the XA160.8. The latter is the only one of the three that can drive the speaker properly in his room, IMO.

I'll be interested to read what Mike thinks about the XA100.5 driving his Alexias. Room size, volume, and type of music may also be factors.

I don't agree with Peter's assessment. The interesting thing is that while the bass is a tad slower and looser with the XA160.5's the bass is very articulate. With the XA160.8's the bass is faster but boomy and thick (although to be fair this is probably because there is increased bass energy, particularly in the deep frequencies which is hard to tame in my room).

Pass had this to say in response when I asked if the .8's were closer to the .5's or XS series:

"The Point 8 amps are definitely closer to the Xs amps than the Point 5's.

There is a lot more bass information with the Point 8 amps and it may seem a little much in the beginning but once you listen for a while, you will notice that it provides a solid foundation for the music that you will miss if you don't have it."

[madfloyd]

My XA160.8s will be here late next week. Then it'll be my turn to do a little comparison with the XA160.5s (with my XP-30 preamp and Magico s5s).

Awesome! I hope it's love at first listen!