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October 3, 2013, 10:37 AM #1
Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
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October 3, 2013, 10:47 AM #2
Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
Hmmm very interesting . Can I call em flat top CDs now. Lol!!
Steve
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October 20, 2013, 06:42 PM #3
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Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
I believe that most vinyl records offer up better dynamics than CDs judging from what I have heard. Not saying CDs aren't good too. Some are great, but most are sterile sounding and seem to lack some depth that good ol' vinyl supplies.
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October 20, 2013, 06:52 PM #4
Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
I believe that both CDs and LPs can be equally adept at dynamics.
But digital does have the advantage. ...When digitally well done.~ Bob ~
"And it Stoned me to my Soul" • Van Morrison
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October 20, 2013, 07:08 PM #5
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Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
yes and thank god for the high resolution down loads like 24bit/96khz Studio Masters.
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October 21, 2013, 10:59 AM #6
Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
From what I have read elsewhere written by recording engineers, recording to tape lets you push things a bit and record a wee bit hot. Tape apparently will compress things in a very natural way, but soft still stays soft relative to loud.
For digital you have to limit your top end so that it never exceeds that 0 point, otherwise it will distort horribly. And modern day recordings will generally overcompress things so even the soft sounds have a higher dynamic than they should relative to the loud sounds, making everything loud and flattening the dynamic range.
From this I infer that in general digital sounds loud and can appear dynamic in something like a car, but generally everything is loud. But from a relative perspective vinyl has more dynamic range, going from loud to soft across the spectrum.Vine, Vide, Velcro - I came, I saw, I stuck around.
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October 21, 2013, 11:05 AM #7
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October 21, 2013, 11:18 AM #8
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Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
Worse than CDs in my experience, but perhaps I don't have the correct gear to play them on. To me they sound way too flat and a bit more sterile than CDs. To me, they sound about the same as 320kps MP3s. It could be that I do not have a dac with the ability to do 24/96. It's been a while since I've heard a Hi-rez file though. I'd like to find one for free, that is a piece of music I am very familiar with and have on hand in CD format and compare taking into account the gear I have. That could tell me for sure if it's a 100% gear issue or the file itself.
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October 21, 2013, 11:26 AM #9
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Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
I'm not sure about digital having a native advantage,but as I mentioned, some CDs sound a bit better than their vinyl counterparts. I believe it has to do with the engineering itself. I've detected big differences between a regular CD and a remaster of the same on occasion with the remaster being superior. I've also heard some where the remaster sounded no different. That points to the engineering of the recording. Example: Tori Amos CDs are superior to their vinyl counterparts and many CDs of other artists as well. Her regular CDs have extremely good dynamics. They sound like well done remasters and yet they are not remasters. Also, I have noticed that there is no such thing as a remaster Tori Amos CD. I suspect it's because they were done so well to begin with that it's plain not needed.
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October 21, 2013, 02:42 PM #10
Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
Eric, I think digital has a dynamic range of 100dBs or so (+/-). ...CD (16/44) is 96dB.
Analog I don't think is that high. ...Few dBs below.
But it don't matter because analog R2R tapes and LPs sound so much better. ...Most generally.~ Bob ~
"And it Stoned me to my Soul" • Van Morrison
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October 21, 2013, 06:33 PM #11
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October 21, 2013, 06:38 PM #12
Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
I think it has to do with "nostalgia".
We don't get that with digital.~ Bob ~
"And it Stoned me to my Soul" • Van Morrison
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October 21, 2013, 07:00 PM #13
Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
Doug
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October 21, 2013, 07:23 PM #14
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October 21, 2013, 07:34 PM #15
Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
So in terms of the physical medium's capability, Bob is right. CD (and certainly hi-rez digital) is capable of delivering a wider dynamic range than LP or tape but the reality is most digital recordings are mastered "hot" as BobM mentioned where the mastering engineers boosts the dBs across the entire song because artists and music studios want their songs/albums to sound loud because most people listen to the material on car radios, iPods, etc...(i.e., crappy play-back gear) and when you boost everything it makes it sound louder/clearer on inferior playback gear. This is known as the "Loudness" wars and much has been written about it. Generally speaking, LPs are marketed to a more discerning consumer and are generally mastered less "hot," meaning the mastering engineers retain more of the dynamic swings (soft to loud to soft etc...) because LP buyers are generally (again not always) more likely to have mid-fi to audiophile gear that is able to clearly showcase those dynamic swings/changes in a song, which by the way is one of the key things that makes music so enjoyable - that emotional roller coaster that a shift in dynamic can take you as part of the song's message.
If you google "loudness wars" and "compression" you will get a ton of hits on this. And of course there are a ton of differing opinions about this, even among mastering engineers but in terms of the medium's pure ability to deliver a wider dynamic range, digital (CD resolution on up) beats vinyl and tape.Cyril
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October 21, 2013, 08:02 PM #16
Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
~ Bob ~
"And it Stoned me to my Soul" • Van Morrison
Click ♪ Audiophile Audition
Snoopy as the Red Baron attack
Avatar = The Alan Parsons Project - Eye in the Sky (1982 - orbiting)
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October 21, 2013, 08:05 PM #17
Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
~ Bob ~
"And it Stoned me to my Soul" • Van Morrison
Click ♪ Audiophile Audition
Snoopy as the Red Baron attack
Avatar = The Alan Parsons Project - Eye in the Sky (1982 - orbiting)
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October 21, 2013, 08:12 PM #18
Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
Borresen Acoustics Loudspeakers, Borresen Model 01 Compact monitor loudspeakers with Ansuz Darkz T2s Supreme resonance control, Audio Video Manufaktur GmbH (AVM) Inspiration amplifier & streamer, Innuos Zen MKII music server, Ansuz Acoustics cables & accessories. Please visit my system thread hosted on Audioshark for more details. Disclosure: The author is materially connected to Ansuz, Aavik & Borresen Acoustics via friendship with an owner.
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October 21, 2013, 08:13 PM #19
Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
~ Bob ~
"And it Stoned me to my Soul" • Van Morrison
Click ♪ Audiophile Audition
Snoopy as the Red Baron attack
Avatar = The Alan Parsons Project - Eye in the Sky (1982 - orbiting)
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October 21, 2013, 08:28 PM #20
Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
I'm all with you on that; there is nothing like the smell of vinyl, the feel of it, the look at it.
CDs don't have the charm, the allegiance, the experience, the charisma of LPs.
And certainly not hi-res audio files on your hard drive.
R2R tapes aren't common, and the good ones (if you look for them) are expensive. ...And the music selection is very restricted.
And tapes, with their formulation, are sensitive to elements, and lose their 'transparency' (oxidation, and others) with time.
Tapes require extreme care, and you want the very best tape quality.
Plus, R2R tape decks also require constant maintenance and care. ...So many moving parts & motors; not so easy to make them all work in synchronized unison, perfect pitch, accurate tandem. ...For a long time.
CDs are sterile (most of them, not all of them); SACDs are better, in general.
Live music is best! Only if it is well reproduced in a nice hall that has been acoustically treated. ...Certainly not those Live Rock concerts in arenas, stadiums, football fields, ice skating rinks, discotheques, ...!~ Bob ~
"And it Stoned me to my Soul" • Van Morrison
Click ♪ Audiophile Audition
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October 22, 2013, 05:10 PM #21
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October 22, 2013, 05:12 PM #22
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October 22, 2013, 05:14 PM #23
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October 22, 2013, 05:31 PM #24
Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
As many people have pointed out, digital music has a much wider dynamic range, better frequency response, lower distortion, etc. than vinyl. Of course, better specs don't do you any good if you don't know how to use that capability, and in my mind, that is why we are having this discussion. Compared to vinyl/analog playback, digital is in its infancy. We are still learning about digital artifacts that negatively influence the sound.
Just look at the number of filters on high-end DACs used to tame the sound. Now we know about pre-ringing where digital is distorted before the note plays. A few years ago that was science fiction. As time goes by we can expect more and more discoveries to be made that will allow digital music to reach its potential.
For example, just last week I installed a new power cord on my digital file player. This cord is designed to remove high frequency noise created by digital power supplies and circuits and reflected back onto the power line. I am still amazed at the improvement I am hearing from this upgrade, and now need to order another for my DAC. If that works even half as good as the previous one does I will be happy.Bud
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October 22, 2013, 07:14 PM #25
Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
Digital is the way of the future.
~ Bob ~
"And it Stoned me to my Soul" • Van Morrison
Click ♪ Audiophile Audition
Snoopy as the Red Baron attack
Avatar = The Alan Parsons Project - Eye in the Sky (1982 - orbiting)
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October 22, 2013, 08:16 PM #26
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October 22, 2013, 09:05 PM #27
Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
Bud
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for source, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson four shelf maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
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October 22, 2013, 09:34 PM #28
Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
I'm with you on that although I'd like the 90's back when I was in my 20's lol!!! Do it right this time .
Anyway I think I'm starting to agree with the digital being the way of the future .
I'm analog from the get go. But while waiting for my turntable I've been listening to an average at best CD player . And the cd's I bought from the store are bright and not pleasing to the ears.
But the cd's I have that are recorded from hi Rez files(only2 ) are so much better than any digital I've heard(for a modest price ). I can't believe how good these sound and how bad the store bought CDs sound compared to them.
So I'm starting small. I'm going to order and IFI dac($250) and get the schiit Loki dsd ($150)to add to it . Just to give this whole digital thing a try. I figure the Loki adds dsd to any dac it would be good to have. I might bite the bullet and just order another with dac included but I'm not sure yet. I don't want to spend much until sure I like this.
I was always closed minded to cd/sacd due to the amt of money you had to spend to match the quality of vinyl. This has opened my eyes a bit. But vinyl will be hard to replace and I'm sure is years away from it.Steve
TUBES & VINYL
Is there anything else?
Rega/Ortofon/Viva 300b/KR
Music Reference 2A3
Altec/JBL
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October 22, 2013, 09:50 PM #29
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October 22, 2013, 09:59 PM #30
Re: Vinyl is more dynamic than Digital?
Lmao!!! Well I'm working and I'm all buzzed up on paint stripper. So maybe I'll sleep on it
Steve
TUBES & VINYL
Is there anything else?
Rega/Ortofon/Viva 300b/KR
Music Reference 2A3
Altec/JBL
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October 22, 2013, 11:19 PM #31~ Bob ~
"And it Stoned me to my Soul" • Van Morrison
Click ♪ Audiophile Audition
Snoopy as the Red Baron attack
Avatar = The Alan Parsons Project - Eye in the Sky (1982 - orbiting)
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AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.
We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!
Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
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