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  1. #1

    My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    My analog front end is a VPI classic, Benz Ace Cartridge, and Nova II phono preamp.

    My current digital front end is Roon/HQPlayer/T+A DAC8 DSD.

    I believe that price wise both front ends are equivalent. (about $5k).

    However, You do need a computer to run Roon and HQPlayer but most people already own one.

    My Recent experience: The sound coming out of the digital front end is outstanding. The analog was always my reference but now my digital tops my analog.

    My conclusion is that dollar for dollar, if all you want to spend is $5k for a front end, digital gives you better value and sound.

    Today I do not know where the dollar threshold would be when analog can sound better than digital. But not too long ago, it was easy for a relatively cheap analog front end to beat digital products costing much more.

    Times are changing.

  2. #2
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    My analog front end is a VPI classic, Benz Ace Cartridge, and Nova II phono preamp.

    My current digital front end is Roon/HQPlayer/T+A DAC8 DSD.

    I believe that price wise both front ends are equivalent. (about $5k).

    However, You do need a computer to run Roon and HQPlayer but most people already own one.

    My Recent experience: The sound coming out of the digital front end is outstanding. The analog was always my reference but now my digital tops my analog.

    My conclusion is that dollar for dollar, if all you want to spend is $5k for a front end, digital gives you better value and sound.

    Today I do not know where the dollar threshold would be when analog can sound better than digital. But not too long ago, it was easy for a relatively cheap analog front end to beat digital products costing much more.

    Times are changing.
    That’s great to hear. You have two excellent sources. Were you able to compare the same recordings by chance? Was there something specific that stood out for you as to why one was better than the other?


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  3. #3
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    $5k can get you a very good DAC. $5k won't get you much in a turntable, let alone a turntable/arm/cartridge/pre.

  4. #4

    My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    That’s great to hear. You have two excellent sources. Were you able to compare the same recordings by chance? Was there something specific that stood out for you as to why one was better than the other?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yes I compared several recordings the digital and analog versions. Different genres as well. The digital version was: more dynamic, sound was cleaner (that's aside from ticks and pops), more details in vocals, better detail in instruments.

    I am upsampling everything to DSD512. The sound feels 'analog', not fatiguing at all.

    I will be listening less to LPs. That's for sure.

  5. #5

    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by vortrex View Post
    $5k can get you a very good DAC. $5k won't get you much in a turntable, let alone a turntable/arm/cartridge/pre.
    I agree. And that is why I demurred how much would someone have to invest in an analog set up to match the $5k digital front end I described.
    So, if it takes $20k or whatever in an analog set up to match a $5k digital set up, I for one and probably others will be thinking why bother.

  6. #6
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Don’t forget digital offers incredible flexibility, and reliability, over analog. With digital you can either listen to an album, or make playlists of favorite songs, or genres. No longer will you accidentally ruin an album, or break a stylus. Those days are over.

    Welcome to the real world.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fqP1Aj79nWU
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  7. #7

    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    I agree. And that is why I demurred how much would someone have to invest in an analog set up to match the $5k digital front end I described.
    So, if it takes $20k or whatever in an analog set up to match a $5k digital set up, I for one and probably others will be thinking why bother.
    That's right. I love the super expensive turntables of my friends (we're talking north of $ 50k incl. phonostage) and admire them -- how the hell can something have such incredibly precise mechanics to get so much info out of that little groove? But I honestly don't think they have much of an edge over my $ 6.5k CD replay setup. Someone else may feel differently.

    And you have all the inconvenience. I would never go back to vinyl in my own system.
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  8. #8
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Yes I compared several recordings the digital and analog versions. Different genres as well. The digital version was: more dynamic, sound was cleaner (that's aside from ticks and pops), more details in vocals, better detail in instruments.
    Yup, as you should with lower noise and higher dynamic range http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6234
    Plus my protracted ritual consists on press Power, click Play, become immersed (literally) in music, a virtual reality of the concert halls I've attended. Concert halls whose reality doesn't include clicks, pops, rumble, flutter, constricted dynamic range, spatially deprived studio constructed stereophony, etc, etc.

    The vinylphiles must still be asleep

  9. #9
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Yup, as you should with lower noise and higher dynamic range http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6234
    Plus my protracted ritual consists on press Power, click Play, become immersed (literally) in music, a virtual reality of the concert halls I've attended. Concert halls whose reality doesn't include clicks, pops, rumble, flutter, constricted dynamic range, spatially deprived studio constructed stereophony, etc, etc.

    The vinylphiles must still be asleep
    Maybe because we were up so late listening to our glorious vinyl!

  10. #10

    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Yup, as you should with lower noise and higher dynamic range http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6234
    Plus my protracted ritual consists on press Power, click Play, become immersed (literally) in music, a virtual reality of the concert halls I've attended. Concert halls whose reality doesn't include clicks, pops, rumble, flutter, constricted dynamic range, spatially deprived studio constructed stereophony, etc, etc.

    The vinylphiles must still be asleep
    From your link:

    And it doesn’t really matter whether you consume these recordings from vinyl LPs or CDs. The dynamic range of an actual performance isn’t maintained from recording sessions to distribution format. Yes, the potential of PCM digital to maintain every dynamic nuance present during the original performance is there. But it is almost never realized. The music business doesn’t want their releases to have real world dynamics
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  11. #11
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    From your link:

    And it doesn’t really matter whether you consume these recordings from vinyl LPs or CDs. The dynamic range of an actual performance isn’t maintained from recording sessions to distribution format. Yes, the potential of PCM digital to maintain every dynamic nuance present during the original performance is there. Butit is almost never realized. The music business doesn’t want their releases to have real world dynamics
    Yep, thanks.

  12. #12

    My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Let me just add that to my ears the upsampling and conversion to DSD512 make regular CDs and Tidal (16/44) sound just as good as the pricier hi-rez without spending any extra money on Hi Rez downloads.

  13. #13
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    My analog front end is a VPI classic 3, Audio Technica ART 7, and Esoteric E03 phono preamp.

    My current digital front end is Mark Levinson N°360S + Grimm CC1 + Marantz SA7S1....
    I can affirm that my VPI has a better sound than my CD player. There is no doubt.

    That's why I have bought an Esoteric K03XS, I listen it with the Grimm CC1 and I can say that with the K03XS, the ML 360S has another sound...

  14. #14
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Yes I compared several recordings the digital and analog versions. Different genres as well. The digital version was: more dynamic, sound was cleaner (that's aside from ticks and pops), more details in vocals, better detail in instruments.

    I am upsampling everything to DSD512. The sound feels 'analog', not fatiguing at all.

    I will be listening less to LPs. That's for sure.

    Very difficult when comparing same recordings , if originally a digital recording it will sound better than the analog LP and if originally an analog pressings will be worse in digital. The EQ necessary for Analog reproduction and mastering is a big contributor to the difference.

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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    Don’t forget digital offers incredible flexibility, and reliability, over analog. With digital you can either listen to an album, or make playlists of favorite songs, or genres. No longer will you accidentally ruin an album, or break a stylus. Those days are over.

    Welcome to the real world.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fqP1Aj79nWU
    lol

  16. #16
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by audio.bill View Post
    Maybe because we were up so late listening to our glorious vinyl!

  17. #17

    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Very difficult when comparing same recordings , if originally a digital recording it will sound better than the analog LP and if originally an analog pressings will be worse in digital. The EQ necessary for Analog reproduction and mastering is a big contributor to the difference.
    I was careful about choosing the recordings. I was playing LPs from the 70s and 80s. Those were analog recordings. I compared them to the CDs from those albums.

  18. #18

    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    I was careful about choosing the recordings. I was playing LPs from the 70s and 80s. Those were analog recordings. I compared them to the CDs from those albums.
    Seems a fair comparison.

    Another thing that I noticed: While there are stellar orchestral and piano recordings on vinyl, I have not yet heard a string quartet recording on my friends' turntables that is as realistic to my ears as high quality digital recordings of string quartets that I have. It seems to be something in the older analog or miking process that added coloration and masked fine transient information. I was disappointed about the sound quality on CD of Mozart string quartets played by the Alban Berg Quartet in the 1970s (love their interpretation). I thought perhaps it was a bad digital transfer, but then I heard the same type of coloration from string quartets on LP, recorded in the same time period. There are though some older analog recordings of solo violin that are excellent.

    In any case, when it comes to string quartets, I'll take digital over vinyl any day.
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  19. #19

    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    I should add that the Janaki Trio Debut on Yarlung Records can sound excellent on LP. That is a modern recording of a string trio (the LP is from analog tape I believe, the CD is a digital recording), but it is still not a string quartet.

  20. #20
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    I dunno ,

    Dont view them mutually exclusive at all and with plenty of exposure with both at all levels of the spectrum , including but not limited to the actual recording process and mastering of both , analog gives up nothing to digital except for convenience and storage. It does take a bigger effort to get by top digital today , but mostly because most TT systems are poorly setup and configured to begin with , not many pay attn to stylus profiles necessary for certain recordings from different era’s and how important SUT or Phono Pre’s quality are , yet i understand fully why most cant be bothered and its old knowledge to get them done correctly..


    To compare an HD digital file to less than a direct master LP is not a proper comparison IMO ...



    regards

  21. #21
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    I'm currently comparing digital and turntable of similar price Lumin A1 vs Garrard 301 EMT cart shindo preamp and so far the turntable is a noticeable step up, sounds more real like musicians are in the room, more color more texture more to give me goose bumps. The Lumin is very clear like pristine water it's very enjoyable, but I wonder if our different results have more to do with the system as a whole. I noticed on a high end linn demo there streamer sounded better than there turntable and I got home and noticed the opposite with my system.

  22. #22
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Yes it can be very system related , if optimized or more specifically compromised to suit one better than the other can sway results , iMO LP playback software is very quality sensitive much more so than digital ..


    regards

  23. #23
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    analog gives up nothing to digital except for convenience and storage.
    This is of course, utter nonsense.
    http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6234
    Analog is inferior by every metric, but some ears/systems are too poor for it to be noticed and some just prefer that noisier, lower dynamic range, wider timing/temporal errors, etc, etc, etc.
    As JGH said:
    Do you still feel the high-end audio industry has lost its way in the manner you described 15 years ago?


    Not in the same manner; there's no hope now. Audio actually used to have a goal: perfect reproduction of the sound of real music performed in a real space. That was found difficult to achieve, and it was abandoned when most music lovers, who almost never heard anything except amplified music anyway, forgot what "the real thing" had sounded like. Today, "good" sound is whatever one likes. As Art Dudley so succinctly said [in his January 2004 "Listening," see "Letters," p.9], fidelity is irrelevant to music.


    Since the only measure of sound quality is that the listener likes it, that has pretty well put an end to audio advancement, because different people rarely agree about sound quality. Abandoning the acoustical-instrument standard, and the mindless acceptance of voodoo science, were not parts of my original vision.


    I remember you strongly feeling back in 1992 that multichannel/surround reproduction was the only chance the industry had for getting back on course.


    With fidelity in stagnation, spatiality was the only area of improvement left.


    As you were so committed to surround, do you feel that the commercial failures of DVD-Audio and SACD could have been avoided?


    I doubt it. No audio product has ever succeeded because it was better, only because it was cheaper, smaller, or easier to use. Your generation of music lovers will probably be the last that even think about fidelity.


    Judging by online forums and by the e-mail I receive, there are currently three areas of passion for audiophiles: vinyl playback, headphone listening, and music servers. Are you surprised by this?


    I find them all boring, but nothing surprises me any more.


    Do you see any signs of future vitality in high-end audio?


    Vitality? Don't make me laugh. Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me, because I am associated by so many people with the mess my disciples made of spreading my gospel. For the record: I never, ever claimed that measurements don't matter. What I said (and very often, at that) was, they don't always tell the whole story. Not quite the same thing.


    Remember those loudspeaker shoot-outs we used to have during our annual writer gatherings in Santa Fe? The frequent occasions when various reviewers would repeatedly choose the same loudspeaker as their favorite (or least-favorite) model? That was all the proof needed that [blind] testing does work, aside from the fact that it's (still) the only honest kind. It also suggested that simple ear training, with DBT confirmation, could have built the kind of listening confidence among talented reviewers that might have made a world of difference in the outcome of high-end audio.


    Yet you achieved so much, Gordon.


    I know I did, and my whole excuse for it—a love for the sound of live classical music—lost its relevance in the US within 10 years. I was done in by time, history, and the most spoiled, destructive generation of irresponsible brats the world has ever seen. (I refer, of course, to the Boomers.)
    I get that people like lo fidelity vinyl. High fidelity it is not. There is no surface noise, clicks/pops, wow and flutter, rumble, poor crosstalk, groove echo, etc, etc. at live classical performances, not that audiophiles would know that. They just know what they like, the sound of records.

    cheers,

    AJ

  24. #24

    My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Deleted.

  25. #25
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Deleted.
    I was going to say it's one of the flaws of digital, but alas...

  26. #26

    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post

    Audio actually used to have a goal: perfect reproduction of the sound of real music performed in a real space.
    No.
    The goal is not the "real thing". The goal of high end audio is "the virtual thing".
    The goal is not the reality as it is, but to create another and maybe more pleasant reality.
    As i usually say, of the "real thing" i just care about the tone of acoustical instruments, when played individually. Nothing more.
    From here, our systems are just a tool to create a new reality.

  27. #27
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Today I do not know where the dollar threshold would be when analog can sound better than digital.
    There is none. No 2ch analog/vinyl/etc. system on earth can approach something like this http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm which appeared to frighten audiophiles.
    While proprietary, there are similar digital technologies trickling out now.
    The latest toy in my listening room has some interesting tech. It's very complex to set up properly, so inadvisable for Joe audiophile who might prefer simplicity and /or more archaic means of reproducing sound. YMMV.
    I'm just getting started but the potential is there...if you are chasing that form of "High Fidelity" experience. Clearly not all are, as so succinctly described by Stereophiles founder.

    cheers,

    AJ
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    No.
    The goal is not the "real thing". The goal of high end audio is "the virtual thing".
    So argue that with JGH who you quoted, who actually said "real music", unlike what you said he said

  29. #29
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    This is of course, utter nonsense.
    http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6234
    Analog is inferior by every metric, but some ears/systems are too poor for it to be noticed and some just prefer that noisier, lower dynamic range, wider timing/temporal errors, etc, etc, etc.
    As JGH said:

    I get that people like lo fidelity vinyl. High fidelity it is not. There is no surface noise, clicks/pops, wow and flutter, rumble, poor crosstalk, groove echo, etc, etc. at live classical performances, not that audiophiles would know that. They just know what they like, the sound of records.

    cheers,

    AJ

    You haven't answered or provided any proof to any questions asked thats whats utter non-sense, as was your dynamic range advantage claim , explained to you months ago , was again negated in your own post and link today..

    lol

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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    i just care about the tone of acoustical instruments, when played individually. Nothing more.
    Not all of us share or are beholden to your lower standards. We all have our own.

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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    You haven't answered or provided any proof to any questions asked thats whats utter non-sense

    There is no surface noise, clicks/pops, wow and flutter, rumble, poor crosstalk, groove echo, etc, etc.
    None are so blind as those who refuse to see.
    Wow. and flutter.

  32. #32
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    This is of course, utter nonsense.
    http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6234
    Analog is inferior by every metric, but some ears/systems are too poor for it to be noticed and some just prefer that noisier, lower dynamic range, wider timing/temporal errors, etc, etc, etc.
    As JGH said:

    I get that people like lo fidelity vinyl. High fidelity it is not. There is no surface noise, clicks/pops, wow and flutter, rumble, poor crosstalk, groove echo, etc, etc. at live classical performances, not that audiophiles would know that. They just know what they like, the sound of records.

    cheers,

    AJ
    How many live Classical performances have dither , clocking errors, digital artifacts , power supply noise , et al ...

    You are apparently happy with your low fidelity system , so let others live too Nuh ..

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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    None are so blind as those who refuse to see.
    Wow. and flutter.
    Clocking errors ...,

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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Clocking errors ...,
    Exactly, vastly superior to analog. Next please lol

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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    There is none. No 2ch analog/vinyl/etc. system on earth can approach something like this http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm which appeared to frighten audiophiles.
    While proprietary, there are similar digital technologies trickling out now.
    The latest toy in my listening room has some interesting tech. It's very complex to set up properly, so inadvisable for Joe audiophile who might prefer simplicity and /or more archaic means of reproducing sound. YMMV.
    I'm just getting started but the potential is there...if you are chasing that form of "High Fidelity" experience. Clearly not all are, as so succinctly described by Stereophiles founder.

    cheers,

    AJ


    Nothing like over processing to sound real ...!!!



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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Exactly, vastly superior to analog. Next please lol
    Dither....

  37. #37

    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    I was going to say it's one of the flaws of digital, but alas...
    My app did not display or show all the posts and was showing a gap in the number of posts. I restarted my phone and it is all good now. My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

  38. #38
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    How many live Classical performances have dither , clocking errors, digital artifacts , power supply noise , et al ...
    None of which are audible except in the imagination of the most susceptible, unlike surface noise, clicks/pops, wow and flutter, rumble, poor crosstalk, groove echo, etc, etc.

  39. #39
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Dither....
    RIAA

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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    None are so blind as those who refuse to see.
    Wow. and flutter.
    At what level is W&F audible ... ?

  41. #41
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    RIAA
    Digital EQ and processing a must have by digifants

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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    None of which are audible except in the imagination of the most susceptible, unlike surface noise, clicks/pops, wow and flutter, rumble, poor crosstalk, groove echo, etc, etc.
    Wait , what ..!

    groove echo ? have to tap out on that one

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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Nothing like over processing to sound real ...!!!
    Mr Wayne,
    Lets hear about your first hand experience with L7immersion. Its rather new.
    No fibbing now

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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Wait , what ..!

    groove echo ? have to tap out on that one
    http://www.pressingvinyl.co.uk/index...o-groove-echo/

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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    I want to hear groove echo set that up too, what kind of ceramic cartridge do i need ... lol

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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    At what level is W&F audible ... ?
    To deaf old philes who think archaic sound is fine, or...??

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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    I want to hear groove echo set that up too, what kind of ceramic cartridge do i need ... lol
    Not into inferior archaic old timer tech, you'll have to ask elsewhere

  48. #48
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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Mr Wayne,
    Lets hear about your first hand experience with L7immersion. Its rather new.
    No fibbing now

    Nothing on L7, just another new over processing acronym ....

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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    I want to hear groove echo set that up too, what kind of ceramic cartridge do i need ... lol
    Download this paper as an AES member http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=2123

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    Re: My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post

    Groove echo is rare to non existent on LP pressing, positive you have never heard it on an LP , worse you never seem to read what you link to your post .. LOL

    Come again ....!

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My Recent Digital vs Analog Experience

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