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June 22, 2018, 07:15 PM #1
Can different blank discs sound different?
Can different quality of blank CD’s sound different when the same music is copied to it?
YES!
I wouldn’t have believed it myself, but in comparing the exact same bit perfect error free copy of the same music files to different blank CD’s, I was surprised by the results.
The winner (almost unattainable today):
Runner Up:
There were no others worthy of mention.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkMy Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
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June 22, 2018, 08:48 PM #2
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Re: Can different blank discs sound different?
Mike,
I know you hear a difference - but it must be due to the induced RF noise produced by the decoding chip in the CD transport affecting the downstream (or internal) analog processing. Both CD's contain the same music bits but each CD has different number of read errors (typically thousands, the literature says) that are corrected by the decoding chip during playback (and this is normal). The transport produces the same output bits from each CD ...but in doing so, the accompanying electromagnetic noise spewing from the decoding section in the transport is different between the Kodak and the UltraDisc. In decoding the Kodak CD, the chip must do less work (due to the better physical substrate and less errors?) and so less electromagnetic noise can affect downstream DACs.
Of course, this only makes sense if your tests had your transport and DAC connected by a metal-based interface..like AES or SPDIF Coax. With an optical connection, you will hear no difference.
There is an industry research paper (which I am looking for) that describes all this.
Dan
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June 22, 2018, 09:17 PM #3
Re: Can different blank discs sound different?
I suspect it has to do with how well/accurate the ‘pits’ are burnt into the blank disc. CD players have read jitter, and a sloppy disc would probably exacerbate that. That’s enough thinking for a Friday.
Bud
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
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June 23, 2018, 06:45 AM #4
Re: Can different blank discs sound different?
Mike what software are you using for the Rip
2chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)
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June 23, 2018, 08:19 AM #5
Re: Can different blank discs sound different?
I have heard of it, but I must say I have never actually heard it.
It has been a few years since I have burned a disc. In the past I would burn a compilation disc of various types of music when I was going to audition gear in a shop.Jim
D'Agostino Momentum M-400's MxV’s & HD Pre-amp
Wilson Alexandria X2 Series 2 speakers
Digital: dCS Vivaldi APEX DAC, Clock & Upsampler
Analog: SME 20/3 with Esoteric E-03 Phono
Transparent Opus Speaker Cable & Interconnects & Opus Power Cords
Power Cords on Digital: Shunyata
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June 23, 2018, 08:52 AM #6
Re: Can different blank discs sound different?
I agree with Bud. The digital data stored on the CD is exactly the same. The superior quality of the CD reduces jitter when it’s read by the laser in the transport.
Ken"No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
--------------------------------------------
Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps; MSB M204 Mono Amps
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June 23, 2018, 08:55 AM #7
Re: Can different blank discs sound different?
I couldn’t believe it. I was highly skeptical. But when we compared, I was shocked.
Apparently these are the same as the Kodak Preservation Gold CD-R’s. I have some coming to try against the Kodak’s:
http://www.mam-a-store.com/mtc80lsgos-100.htmlMy Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
https://suncoastaudio.com/
Phone: 941-932-0282
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/
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June 23, 2018, 08:55 AM #8My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
https://suncoastaudio.com/
Phone: 941-932-0282
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/
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June 23, 2018, 09:07 AM #9
Re: Can different blank discs sound different?
I remember this issue being discussed by Gary Koh of Genesis years back:
http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/w...D_Paper_v2.pdfRance
Synology DS411+II | GigaFOILv4 + Keces P3 Power Supply | Shunyata Alpha Ethernet | Lumin S1 | VAC Master Line Stage | VAC Signature 200 iQ amps | Kharma Elegance dB11-S | SVS PC-4000 subs x 2 | Shunyata 6000/T v2 | Kharma Elegance signal cables| Luminous Audio Technology power cables | Isoacoustics OREA vibration isolators | Solid Tech racks | Vicoustic room treatments | Acoustic Sciences Corporation IsoWall + IsoCeiling construction
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June 23, 2018, 09:13 AM #10
Re: Can different blank discs sound different?
Thanks for sharing. I’ll give it a read later.
I must admit, when my friend first told me of his exhaustive research and results, I thought he was totally full of crap. Then he played the Kodak (his winner) Vs Mofi Gold vs generic silver CD, assured me it was the exact same rip, using the same software and Plextor burner. The MOFI Gold CD is the Kodak Gold, but simply a Black MOFI label added and that affected sound!
The regular silver cd sounded lifeless and veiled by comparison to the Kodak and MOFI. Amazing.My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
https://suncoastaudio.com/
Phone: 941-932-0282
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/
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June 23, 2018, 09:43 AM #112chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)
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June 23, 2018, 09:51 AM #12
Re: Can different blank discs sound different?
Yes.
Anthony
Analog: VPI Clearaudio Innovation Wood/Kuzma 4Point/Ortofon A95> ASR Basis Exclusive HV---->
Digital: Antipodes CX (Oladra Upgrade)> Cary DMS-600 DAC/Streamer---->
...........Cary 306 SACD Professional Disc Player---->
===> Cary SLP-05 (Ultimate Upgrade edition)----> Clayton M-300----> MARTIN LOGAN SPIRES/REL 212SX x2
[Synergistic Research/Nordost/Wireworld/Furutech/SRA/Adona/Stillpoints/Track Audio/GIK Acoustics]
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June 23, 2018, 09:55 AM #13
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Re: Can different blank discs sound different?
Mike, please try this: download the MSB Technology bit perfect test file at the CD standard 16/44.1 format. Burn the file to both the Kodak and a generic silver CD. Play the CDs thru the transport (bypass all processing) The DAC will report that the files are exactly the same ...yet they sound different.
You are a respected and successful audio expert so making the statement 'The regular silver CD sounded lifeless and veiled by comparison to the Kodak and MOFI.' makes it sound like you are representing that the audible benefit is inherent and captured in the CD. Yet the CD's hold the same data, the jitter is not an issue and the DAC sees the bits correctly.
You have to adjust your 'belief' and face the facts. RF noise is present at short range in open air but mostly insidious thru metal-to-metal contact in cables and circuit boards...despite the efforts of design engineers. It contaminates small signal processing in the DAC so the bits-to-volts gets subtlety affected and exhibits the 'veiled and lifeless' artifacts you hear. This is the inconvenient truth.
Again, if you use an optical link from transport to DAC you will eliminate this problem.
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June 23, 2018, 10:10 AM #14
Re: Can different blank discs sound different?
Anthony
Analog: VPI Clearaudio Innovation Wood/Kuzma 4Point/Ortofon A95> ASR Basis Exclusive HV---->
Digital: Antipodes CX (Oladra Upgrade)> Cary DMS-600 DAC/Streamer---->
...........Cary 306 SACD Professional Disc Player---->
===> Cary SLP-05 (Ultimate Upgrade edition)----> Clayton M-300----> MARTIN LOGAN SPIRES/REL 212SX x2
[Synergistic Research/Nordost/Wireworld/Furutech/SRA/Adona/Stillpoints/Track Audio/GIK Acoustics]
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June 23, 2018, 11:27 AM #15
Re: Can different blank discs sound different?
My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
https://suncoastaudio.com/
Phone: 941-932-0282
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/
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June 23, 2018, 01:47 PM #16
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June 23, 2018, 01:56 PM #17
Re: Can different blank discs sound different?
There was a lot of discussion years ago that the black CD-R's that came in the Memorex containers sounded better than the other colors mixed in the package.
Jim
D'Agostino Momentum M-400's MxV’s & HD Pre-amp
Wilson Alexandria X2 Series 2 speakers
Digital: dCS Vivaldi APEX DAC, Clock & Upsampler
Analog: SME 20/3 with Esoteric E-03 Phono
Transparent Opus Speaker Cable & Interconnects & Opus Power Cords
Power Cords on Digital: Shunyata
Power Conditioner - Shunyata Everest
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AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
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