Class-D amps

[Mike]

The other day I removed the REF250's from the mid/highs and tried just my ARC DS450M's on my speakers and it was a real different sound. Tight, punchy, with a sharp definition, but with a rather flat soundstage. I wasn't entirely sure I liked it....it was different from the beautiful slight bloomy midrange I'm used to and musicality of tubes.

I certainly like the gobs of power and small foot print of Class-D. It has lots of potential. It got me to thinking.....are there any good Class-D amps out there or even any Class-D hybrid amps anyone has heard and liked?

NuForce
BelCanto
Anthem
Rogue
ARC
....others?

[roncagg]

I am really enjoying my spectron musician 3, which I got for my Gallos but like even more through my Zu Omens. 600W into 8 ohms! Nice to have that headroom and pulls just 60w when idle, very efficient.

[hiro100]

The other day I removed the REF250's from the mid/highs and tried just my ARC DS450M's on my speakers and it was a real different sound. Tight, punchy, with a sharp definition, but with a rather flat soundstage. I wasn't entirely sure I liked it....it was different from the beautiful slight bloomy midrange I'm used to and musicality of tubes.

I certainly like the gobs of power and small foot print of Class-D. It has lots of potential. It got me to thinking.....are there any good Class-D amps out there or even any Class-D hybrid amps anyone has heard and liked?

NuForce
BelCanto
Anthem
Rogue
ARC
....others?

I've tried the Ice amps via Bel Canto and Wyred 4 Sound. Devialet's Hybrid Class A and D and most recently a DIY Ncore amplifier. Of those I preferred the Ncore the most but would still prefer a well implemented Class A or Class A/B amplifier.

[dlb2]

Mike, I had a Wyred amp that I ran direct to their DAC2 for awhile. While I could appreciate the coolness factor, as in cool to the touch, and the fact that it drew very little electricity, it just didn't have the musical features that I like. The beautiful midrange and sparkle you get from tubes just wasn't there. I don't think that Class-D is there yet to compete with A or AB.

[Face]

I've been saying this for a while, tube pre plus class D is a great mix. The control of class D plus the euphorics from a tube pre give you the best of both worlds, IMO of course.

[Mike]

Thanks. I'm wondering about brands. Has any one company got a lead on Class-D technology?

NuForce perhaps?

[socfan12]

I've heard the Merrill Audio Veritas Monos and both times they had a huge soundstage, seemed very fast, but a bit lean for my taste. Could have been more the speakers than the amp - hard to tell.

I think Nick (veindoc) tried the twins (stereo version) on his TADs. Maybe he will chime in.

[Mike]

Are the TAD amps Class-D or am I thinking of something else?

[Mike]

If Anthem ever irons out the bugs of the M1's, they could be a home run. Unlimited power! 2000 watts/channel into 4ohms.

And reasonably priced too!

[socfan12]

Are the TAD amps Class-D or am I thinking of something else?

One of the TADs is Class D, but forget which one.

The prior generation of Rowland amps are also class D, I think including the Continuum integrated.

[HiFive]

I'm very pleased with Arion amp. RS-250.
To me Arion amp does sound smoother than NCore.
RS-250 Spec.

[Mike]

It's such a different sound. Very hard to put your finger on it exactly. The DS450M's on just the bass is excellent. Not sure I like them anywhere else.

But it did get me thinking about advancements in Class-D and who is the present day leader.

[BobM]

I've heard a few and I liked the Merrill's a lot, but with a tubed front end (something like a Dude would be great I think). They are not cheap though. All class D is not created equal and the progression toward better sound is changing rapidly. The last gen class D's can't stand up to the current, newer ones.

[Mike]

I've heard a few and I liked the Merrill's a lot, but with a tubed front end (something like a Dude would be great I think). They are not cheap though. All class D is not created equal and the progression toward better sound is changing rapidly. The last gen class D's can't stand up to the current, newer ones.

Thanks Bob. That's exactly what I'm thinking. Class-D is also ripe for combining with a preamp and DAC - all-in-one. It's certainly is interesting and perhaps the future.

I actually remember when SS was first coming into popularity and the first reactions were similar to Class-D now. It will get better, no doubt and hopefully one day sound better than SS. Will it ever sound better than tubes? I have my doubts....but hope one day it can. Believe me, slugging around 150 pound SS amps is no fun. These little Class-D amps are super powerful and light. Imagine a great sounding, super powerful amp, which runs cold the size of a step up transformer? Nice.

[Mike]

I've been reading about the D-Sonic M3-1500M (1500 watts/channel into 8 ohms! - 2400 watts/channel into 4 ohms! - oh my!)

M2 Series Amplifiers, Power Amplifiers & Class D Amplifiers for Sale Online

$1500 each

Insane.

Reviewers said it was very warm sounding and almost too analog!

6moons audio reviews: D-Sonic M2-1500M

[hiro100]

Hi Mike,

I know you are a Classe fan so it might interest you that Classe had a proto type Class D amplifier at our recent Music Matters event. It was hooked up to the B&W Nautilus speakers and my friend was really impressed with the sound. When he asked which amplifier was being used, it turned out it was a proto type amplifier Classe was working on that was Class D. I"m not sure which Class D implementation they are using.

[Mike]

Hi Mike,

I know you are a Classe fan so it might interest you that Classe had a proto type Class D amplifier at our recent Music Matters event. It was hooked up to the B&W Nautilus speakers and my friend was really impressed with the sound. When he asked which amplifier was being used, it turned out it was a proto type amplifier Classe was working on that was Class D. I"m not sure which Class D implementation they are using.

Very cool! Thanks for sharing.

[veindoc]

hey Mike, I have tried some truly notable models: TADm2500, Rowland 525, and Merrill veritas with my Pass XP-20 and TAD cr-1. I know my speakers do have special needs to truly thrive but all three of these class D were fine, quiet, tight bass but sound stage and musicality just did not compare to any of the class A or AB amps. Just not even close for my particular setup.
ATB,
Nick

[KLH007]

The Arion Harmony amps use a tube front end and class D out, they sound great, much like the Rogue Medusa, both neutral in a good sense.

[Ritmo]

Mike,

Glad you started this thread. I still have the ARC DS450 driving the Salon 2s. As you may remember, I was considering getting the DS450Ms to replace the stereo version. I continue to lean towards the Pass. Just need to pull the trigger.

Mike

[joeinid]

Mike

Have you considered Classe amps? You might be surprised.

[Mike]

Mike - I have the DS450M's too. The Pass are great amps. Real sweet with a great midrange. However, I did hear Mark's CAM-600's and loved the combo. I have a pair of CAM-600's and Studio 2's coming my way next week !

[Ritmo]

Joe,

I have. Both Mike and Mark (MDP) recommended them to me a while back. The 600 monos have excellent reviews.

I have been considering the Pass X600.5s and the XA200.5s. They are very good companions to the ARC Ref5SE.

I suppose all 3 are good options. My challenge is being able to arrange an audition given where I live.

Mike

[Mike]

Joe,

I have. Both Mike and Mark (MDP) recommended them to me a while back. The 600 monos have excellent reviews.

I have been considering the Pass X600.5s and the XA200.5s. They are very good companions to the ARC Ref5SE.

I suppose all 3 are good options. My challenge is being able to arrange an audition given where I live.

Mike

Bring your REF5SE to Mark's! He's always wanted to hear that preamp too with his system.

[joeinid]

I love Pass gear but the heat output was too much during any time of the year except the dead of winter where the heat was welcome.

[joeinid]

Some gear combos go together like peanut butter and jelly. Classe and Revel is one of them.

[Mike]

Another idea....

Keep the DS450M's for the bass of the Salon 2's and add a pair of ARC REF250's for the mid/high. It works! I run that combo on my Aida's. The gain is matched - you just put the REF250's on the 8ohm tap. It's an amazing combo. Sweet and thunderous!

[socfan12]

Joe,

I have. Both Mike and Mark (MDP) recommended them to me a while back. The 600 monos have excellent reviews.

I have been considering the Pass X600.5s and the XA200.5s. They are very good companions to the ARC Ref5SE.

I suppose all 3 are good options. My challenge is being able to arrange an audition given where I live.

Mike

Mike, I will be very interested in seeing how this pans for you. I have just purchased a pair of Salon 2s and am considering the X600.5 and the Krell Evos myself.

[sharkmouth]

Mike, I will be very interested in seeing how this pans for you. I have just purchased a pair of Salon 2s and am considering the X600.5 and the Krell Evos myself.

Allen, I'd throw the Sanders Magtech amp in there too, probably one of the bargains out there & specifically designed to drive hard loads.Quite a neutral signature & tone to it too.Money back guarantee to try & buy, or there was.

[Conanb1]

According to the latest review on Home HiFi dot com website, the D-Sonic must be the best Class D amp on the market.

[Phil A]

I've been saying this for a while, tube pre plus class D is a great mix. The control of class D plus the euphorics from a tube pre give you the best of both worlds, IMO of course.

I concur. Using an EVS1200 with a Modwright LS36.5DM preamp in the main system currently. The (new) Merrill audio amps are really nice (both sound and finish) but of course they are priced accordingly.

[Bones13]

Anyone seen/heard the Rogue Audio Dragon amplifier? One of my prejudices about many of class D is the SMPS power supplies. The Rogue Audio gear has both a linear power supply, and a tubed input circuit. The Dragon has nCore digital boards that has been reviewed well.

any other thoughts on the various digital boards? As I am just learning about this class, I’m sure I missed some.

IcePower, Hypex nCore, purifi, the very high power D-Sonic board

[Glareskin]

Has anyone of you tried Mola Mola?

This is Bruno Putzeys high-end amplifier brand. They do get excellent reviews.

https://www.mola-mola.nl

[bart]

Has anyone of you tried Mola Mola?

This is Bruno Putzeys high-end amplifier brand. They do get excellent reviews.

https://www.mola-mola.nl

Yes I have, on several occasions.
They are excellent.

But last month, I heard his new amp modules (see https://purifi-audio.com/ ).
Expect a paradigm shift!

I visited with Jacques, another Belgian audio buddy.
You can read about our findings here: https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=47023

[Conanb1]

"Now, I’m amazed at the quality and clean reproduction of the lower bass notes. From top to bottom it sounds as though I have upgraded my speaker system. I love trumpet music and I’ve always perceived that as FAST as Dizzy Gillespi is, he wasn’t completing the notes. He was blasting them out. Now I realize that my previous amplifiers from the last 12 years haven’t been fast enough to keep up with him. Now I am hearing how crisp and clean each note he plays is. Amazing. People often describe sound with depth and width. With this amp, I’m describing it as a “sound field” There is a comprehensiveness to what I’m hearing now that previously didn’t exist. I’ve never heard anything like this. In my system, this is even quieter than the PS Audio amps."

[BlueFox]

Who are you quoting?

"Now, I’m amazed at the quality and clean reproduction of the lower bass notes. From top to bottom it sounds as though I have upgraded my speaker system. I love trumpet music and I’ve always perceived that as FAST as Dizzy Gillespi is, he wasn’t completing the notes. He was blasting them out. Now I realize that my previous amplifiers from the last 12 years haven’t been fast enough to keep up with him. Now I am hearing how crisp and clean each note he plays is. Amazing. People often describe sound with depth and width. With this amp, I’m describing it as a “sound field” There is a comprehensiveness to what I’m hearing now that previously didn’t exist. I’ve never heard anything like this. In my system, this is even quieter than the PS Audio amps."

[joeinid]

Bud,

check post number 2034, looks like a d-sonic amp.

D-Sonic custom Audio amps - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews



M3a-2400-3 – D Sonic

[Randy Myers]

Hey Mike,

Doesn't MBL also offer some class D amps?

My buddy from the audio club who has the same MBL speakers as you do and their big boy mono blocks and the MBL pre-amp had EJ build him mono blocks to use on the bass. He is thrilled with what the class D has done for the low end while using his MBL's for the rest.

As a side note, EJ modified the amps only to install special speaker terminals because the the cables that our friend is using are so huge that they could not attach securely to standard terminals .
Wyred 4 Sound SX-1000R

I believe that Jim Smith has one of these and could probably give you some insight on it.
Wyred 4 Sound ST-750LE

[Mike]

Hey Mike,

Doesn't MBL also offer some class D amps?

My buddy from the audio club who has the same MBL speakers as you do and their big boy mono blocks and the MBL pre-amp had EJ build him mono blocks to use on the bass. He is thrilled with what the class D has done for the low end while using his MBL's for the rest.

As a side note, EJ modified the amps only to install special speaker terminals because the the cables that our friend is using are so huge that they could not attach securely to standard terminals .
Wyred 4 Sound SX-1000R

I believe that Jim Smith has one of these and could probably give you some insight on it.
Wyred 4 Sound ST-750LE

Yes, but they are a hybrid of sorts.

“In a Class D amp the input is first converted/encoded by a modulator into a pulse train (using pulse width, pulse density, or related modulatory techniques) that represents the amplitude variations of the audio signal. This pulse train is then fed to the amplifying devices (usually MOSFETs), which operate like electronic on-off switches. Working alternately, these transistors switch back and forth between the supply rails, generating positive and negative boosted signals that are subsequently low-pass filtered (to get rid of the very high frequencies used by the modulator to encode the input signal), sometimes high-pass filtered (to reduce residual distortion), and fed as a higher-gain analog (sinusoidal) signal to the loudspeakers. Theoretically, a switching amplifier (which dissipates virtually no power as heat) has an efficiency of 100%, while Class B amps have a theoretical maximum efficiency of 78% and Class A amps 20–50%.

Unlike its predecessors and much of its current competition, the Noble Line N15 monoblocks under review are said to guarantee a linear signal independent of load, level, or frequency. This is a bold claim, considering (as MBL itself points out in its LASA 2.0 white paper) that Class D amplifiers inherently distort the music signal depending on frequency. (Natively they have low THD in the bass and very high THD in the treble.) Moreover, Class D amplifiers are always designed for a particular resistance value (e.g., 4 ohms), but a loudspeaker does not have a constant resistance—it is a “complex load” with impedances varying with frequency. Thus, in addition to their native non-homogeneous distortion profile, Class D amplifiers change their power delivery (and hence their frequency response) with changes in load. On top of this, the louder a typical Class D amp plays, the lower its overall distortion, and (paradoxically) the quieter it plays, the higher its distortion.

MBL claims to have solved these myriad problems with its LASA (Linear Analog Switching Amplifier) 2.0 technology, which, instead of the typical and economical switch-mode power supplies of most Class D amplifiers, uses a massive analog toroidal power supply. The LASA circuitry is also symmetrical in layout for better common mode rejection, employs low-drop fast-recovery rectifiers to create a low-noise supply voltage, and has a “soft-clipping” provision to eliminate aggressiveness and distortion at very high output levels. Whether or not these strategies result in an amp that (as MBL claims) is closer to Class A or Class AB in linearity, noise, and stability than it is to typical Class D, there is no question that the N15 differs sonically from the switching amplifiers I auditioned lo these many years ago.”

Source:

MBL Noble Line N11 Preamplifier and N15 Monoblock Amplifier | The Absolute Sound


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[Hear Here]

The other day I removed the REF250's from the mid/highs and tried just my ARC DS450M's on my speakers and it was a real different sound. Tight, punchy, with a sharp definition, but with a rather flat soundstage. I wasn't entirely sure I liked it....it was different from the beautiful slight bloomy midrange I'm used to and musicality of tubes.

I certainly like the gobs of power and small foot print of Class-D. It has lots of potential. It got me to thinking.....are there any good Class-D amps out there or even any Class-D hybrid amps anyone has heard and liked?

NuForce
BelCanto
Anthem
Rogue
ARC
....others?

I have no interest in "gobs of power" amps with my Avantgarde speakers, but I do use Class D amplification.

After testing about a dozen amps of all flavours (after deciding to move away from tubes) I concluded I didn't like Diavelet, Red Wine or Lyngdorf's Class D efforts and I found Sugden and Accupase Class A's a bit on the soft / warm side, but I did like NAD M32's Direct Digital sound. I'm hoping their new Puriti M33 may be even better.

Also rejected for one reaon or another - GamuT D200 Mk III, Micromega M100, Quad Platinum, Sanders Magtech and others. NAD shouldn't be ignored just because it's relatively low priced and includes a DAC - plus streamer and Dirac RC on the M33.

[Mike]

I have no interest in "gobs of power" amps with my Avantgarde speakers, but I do use Class D amplification.

After testing about a dozen amps of all flavours (after deciding to move away from tubes) I concluded I didn't like Diavelet, Red Wine or Lyngdorf's Class D efforts and I found Sugden and Accupase Class A's a bit on the soft / warm side, but I did like NAD M32's Direct Digital sound. I'm hoping their new Puriti M33 may be even better.

Also rejected for one reaon or another - GamuT D200 Mk III, Micromega M100, Quad Platinum, Sanders Magtech and others. NAD shouldn't be ignored just because it's relatively low priced and includes a DAC - plus streamer and Dirac RC on the M33.

Man, as A.Wayne would say, you need some toooooooobs with those!

My faves with AG:

VAC
VIVA
Luxman MQ300

For solid state:
SIT-3
Luxman 590
Constellation
Boulder



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[Hear Here]

Man, as A.Wayne would say, you need some toooooooobs with those!

My faves with AG:

VAC
VIVA
Luxman MQ300

For solid state:
SIT-3
Luxman 590
Constellation
Boulder



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Tubes - no thanks. I'm sure those amps are all great with AGs (you're an expert), but decided I'd listen to MUCH more music with SS powering my speakers. Dead right - has worked out that way, so I won't be going back to the hassle, life expectancy worries, etc of lovely sounding SETs in a hurry.

I'm now CONSIDERING a switcher so I can switch from my NAD amp to perhaps an Art Audio PX-25 SET for occasional listening without having to change speaker cables.

Have you actually tried a NAD M32 with Avantgarde? I suspect not from your reaction. I've used Graaf GM20 OTL, Unison Research SMT 845, Audio Note (with 300B), Art Audio Carissa (845), Art Audio PX-25 and Consonance Cyber 845 monos, but I really don't want to go back as the NAD is so good - surprisingly so!

Peter

[Mike]

Tubes - no thanks. I'm sure those amps are all great with AGs (you're an expert), but decided I'd listen to MUCH more music with SS powering my speakers. Dead right - has worked out that way, so I won't be going back to the hassle, life expectancy worries, etc of lovely sounding SETs in a hurry.

I'm now CONSIDERING a switcher so I can switch from my NAD amp to perhaps an Art Audio PX-25 SET for occasional listening without having to change speaker cables.

Have you actually tried a NAD M32 with Avantgarde? I suspect not from your reaction. I've used Graaf GM20 OTL, Unison Research SMT 845, Audio Note (with 300B), Art Audio Carissa (845), Art Audio PX-25 and Consonance Cyber 845 monos, but I really don't want to go back as the NAD is so good - surprisingly so!

Peter

No, the only NAD I own is the M17 v2.

If you can ever score a SIT-3 (and the necessary resistors), you will be stunned.


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[AJ Soundfield]

and the Necro-thread award of the week goes to....

[Hear Here]

I'll try to arrange a demo of the SIT-3 amp, though not sure there are any UK dealers. Looking at the Owner's Manual, it seems to have no way of turning it off short of using the back panel switch. I wouldn't want an inefficient Class A amp that doesen't either turn itself off after a period with no input (an EU requirement) or can be turned off via trigger from preamp.

Has it either of these fetures to make it envirnmentally acceptable? In fact, I'd be very reluctant to consider an amp that burns so much energy that the case gets to 50 deg C when switched on. That's one of my reasons for moving away from tubes! Thanks. Peter

[Mike]

I'll try to arrange a demo of the SIT-3 amp, though not sure there are any UK dealers. Looking at the Owner's Manual, it seems to have no way of turning it off short of using the back panel switch. I wouldn't want an inefficient Class A amp that doesen't either turn itself off after a period with no input (an EU requirement) or can be turned off via trigger from preamp.

Has it either of these fetures to make it envirnmentally acceptable? In fact, I'd be very reluctant to consider an amp that burns so much energy that the case gets to 50 deg C when switched on. That's one of my reasons for moving away from tubes! Thanks. Peter

It doesn’t draw much power.


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[AJ Soundfield]

but I really don't want to go back as the NAD is so good - surprisingly so!

Peter

I still have a M51 dac and have seen/heard zero reason to change. May add an RME at some point, for alternate use.

cheers,

AJ