Where to spend the most money in your audio chain?

[Moby]

30+ years ago I was lured into Pro Musica in my neighborhood in Chicago in search of my first "audiophile" stereo system after beginning my career (I ended up with a Naim Nait Integrated, Linn Kans, and a British turntable - not Linn). I was assaulted by a true Linn acolyte/salesperson who pushed the Linn mantra of spending most of your money in a system on the front end since that is the source (and of course they were most famous for their turntables). I resisted then, finding the acolyte and the philosophy both arrogant, somewhat cult like, and certainly self-serving. Plus, didn't everyone know you should spend the most money on your speakers? I've recently revamped my system, in some cases going up the ladder, in some cases going down the ladder, at least in retail price per component. And I just realized - doh, you have spent considerably more on your analog front end (which I prefer to digital) than any other components in your chain and it all sounds significantly better. Was that Linn acolyte right all along? Garbage in, garbage out, right? Where do you spend the bulk of your audio investment and why? For those of you who say room and power treatments, please do not respond to this question because you will be subject to open mocking and derision because that answer is too boring (whether or not you are right).

[Speedskater]

Speakers and rooms. End of story.

[still-one]

The front end first was just a sales pitch created by Ivor Tiefenbrun when the only product they made was a turntable. In my expierence you can take a good pair of speakers and get excellent sound from a decent amp with the source a basic CD player. Now if you get a pair of big box store speakers and connect a dCS stack or MSB Select you are not going to hear the benefits of that front end.

[Jim Smith]

Proper system-to-room-setup always has a far greater effect than ANY component.

Not even close, IMO (having successfully voiced over 800 systems to rooms)...

[Moby]

"Speakers and rooms. End of story." Very thoughtful and persuasive answer. Now I just have to figure out how to wire my iPod directly to some Wilson Alexandrias.
"The front end first was just a sales pitch created by Ivor Tiefenbrun when the only product they made was a turntable". I think I alluded to that.
"Proper system-to-room-setup always has a far greater effect than ANY component." I warned you, now consider yourself mocked.

Not one of you really answered the question posed I don't think.

[Mike]

I don’t think Linn had the whole story. It’s all important - source, speakers, electronics, cables, etc. but none of it will matter with a bad room and a poor setup. Focus on the room, then speaker/listening position setup, then power (AC). Get those three things right and you have the foundation for which to build a great system. After that, find the speakers that will work best in your room. Most rooms I’ve seen have some odd quirks. Find the best speaker for that room.


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[Moby]

I agree it’s all important and I’m personally an advocate of a balanced system. And yes, one needs to buy the right speakers for the room and be able to adequately drive those speakers. And yes you need to set it all up so you don’t have horrible reflections or electric hash from your refrigerator introduced through your power mains. But let’s just focus on the most basic issue - if you have all those thoughts in mind, when buying the components themselves where should you focus your investment? As I said, I believe in balance and look for musical performance more than watts or size, but it seems to me that you’re just trying to put lipstick on a pig if the signal from the source isn’t the best it can be. I see way too many systems discussed where people put a $1,000 - $2,000 source in front of $20,000 of other components. Obviously this is just my opinion, but maybe Ivor had something there (despite his obvious self-interest).

[Kuoppis]

I would suggest to get an understanding of what kind of sound you prefer and then start assembling your system based on that.

It could be argued that all the things listed above may vary in priority order based on what you are after.

- bass & PRaT - amp & power management
- soundstage & details - room & speakers
- midrange - amp & cabling
- sound characteristics - source


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[Moby]

OMG. I give up.

[Joe P]

[still-one]

I think you get the gist. The majority of us don't agree that one doesn't need to spend the bulk of the budget on the analog front end. If you get the sound you are looking for by doing so then by all means march to that drummer. It sounds as if that is what makes you happy and that is all that matters.

[Moby]

I’m not asking you to agree with me. I’m not that insecure. And I don’t want this to be an analog vs digital debate. That’s boring. What I’m asking is for your philosophy on where someone should really focus their hard earned dollars when trying to build a good system. I note that most of the responses so far are from folks with $100,000+ systems who have spent more on one component than many would on their entire system. So perhaps this question is too basic for this audience. Most people don’t have the luxury of taking their home system to the point where a custom designed listening room with all the benefits that affords is feasible. I personally think my own system is ridiculously expensive but worth it due to the enjoyment I derive from it. You may feel that way to some degree about your own system. But if a friend asked me to guide them in acquiring a good $20,000 system I’d be afraid of the reaction I’d get if I gave some of the responses given here. So no, I don’t pretend to have all the answers and was honestly interested in all of yours in such a context.

[tube-vds]

spent your money on good recordings and a good source.

you can not make great sound from a bad source.

my 5 ct.

[Mikado463]

OMG. I give up.

good idea, but if you decide to try again go to post #2.

[Jim Smith]

And yes you need to set it all up so you don’t have horrible reflections or electric hash from your refrigerator introduced through your power mains.

That isn't remotely what I was talking about.

I was referring to getting your system to work with the room rather than against it - always Step One. This is about getting the optimum acoustic wave-launch into your room, and receiving it properly at the listening seat.

Room treatments depend on that aspect first.

Worrying about how electrons flow through electronics & cables is nothing when compared to Step One.

I have set up (properly) medium-to-low priced systems that wipe the floor with high priced systems not set-up optimally.

If you want to get the most for your money, I'd recommend Mike as your dealer and your set-up guy, especially if musical involvement rather than audiophile sounds (PRaT, soundstage, sound characteristics, etc.) is your goal.

IMO, & IME

[Moby]

I’m not trying to buy something here. I’ve just gone through that and I’m very happy with my system - sitting here listening to Roxy Music Avalon and very happy. . What we seem to have here is a failure to communicate - likely my fault - but I don’t think I could have expressed my intent more clearly. I’m sure Mike is a great dealer.

[Spock]

My case: almost 50% spent in the loudspeakers.
To me they are, without any doubt, the most important component. The speakers make the link between the electric signal and your ears.
But, to get a good performance, they have to match with the amplification.
The source?
In these days you can get a good source at a ridiculous price. I have right now a Raspberry DAC (almost 50 €!!) with an external memory with more than 4.000 ripped albums and the sound is not far from the CD player.
It is possible you should spend more money in cables and other "acessories".


About room...
Maybe i´m alone saying this but, as i use to say to my audiophiles friends, get the system right first. If you have a room with "normal" furniture, and if it does not have any echo, you probably don´t need any special acoustic treatment.


Or maybe i just got lucky with my room...

[Speedskater]

"Speakers and rooms. End of story." Very thoughtful and persuasive answer. Now I just have to figure out how to wire my iPod directly to some Wilson Alexandrias.
.................................................. ......

With modern DSP active powered loudspeakers, all you need is an iPod and you are good to go.

[Al M.]

I have set up (properly) medium-to-low priced systems that wipe the floor with high priced systems not set-up optimally.

Your claim matches my experience. Proper set-up is crucially important.

[Moby]

Room/system setup important. Yeah, I get it, that’s why I spend hours and hours on it over several weeks when I set up a system or change components. Now explain to me how this relates to the topic of the post.

[Mikado463]

Room/system setup important. Yeah, I get it, that’s why I spend hours and hours on it over several weeks when I set up a system or change components. Now explain to me how this relates to the topic of the post.

LOL.........look at what YOU posted as the thread topic.....duhhhhhh, time is money kid. So with that being said, again, post #2 ........

[Moby]

Dear lord, this thread has gone so far off the rails. Time is money, yes, except when you’re retired like me. Then time is the measuring stick used to count down to your inevitable demise. I think I’ll spend that time doing something a bit more productive than trying to keep this thread on point - like playing my guitar on the back deck and listening to the river flow by. Peace.

[a.wayne]

Speakers and rooms. End of story.

Bingo ,


Speakers for the room , then amp for the load ....

[a.wayne]

I agree it’s all important and I’m personally an advocate of a balanced system. And yes, one needs to buy the right speakers for the room and be able to adequately drive those speakers. And yes you need to set it all up so you don’t have horrible reflections or electric hash from your refrigerator introduced through your power mains. But let’s just focus on the most basic issue - if you have all those thoughts in mind, when buying the components themselves where should you focus your investment? As I said, I believe in balance and look for musical performance more than watts or size, but it seems to me that you’re just trying to put lipstick on a pig if the signal from the source isn’t the best it can be. I see way too many systems discussed where people put a $1,000 - $2,000 source in front of $20,000 of other components. Obviously this is just my opinion, but maybe Ivor had something there (despite his obvious self-interest).

80% of your budget on the best speakers , bigger differences here than any other component ..

[Mechnutt]

Putting the room aside. Every part of the electronic chain is important. I think that you have to pick speakers first to fit your tastes, music and room. Then pick a source. But both of these will sound like crap with the wrong amp, preamp, integrated etc. It's like what came first, the chicken or the egg. I think that digital is certainly a different animal than analog. Currently, there are great sounding DAC's in the $500 to $2K range that can be paired with great electronics and sound great. Especially now that there are music players like HQ Player, Bug Head, Roon and the like. However, a cheap analog system will more likely be exposed by higher end electronics and speakers. The question is, what is a cheap analog system $2K, $5K, $10K? Certainly, I have a budget analog system but it suits my needs and it happens to sound great to me and my audio friends.

I see the frustration with people saying you should address the room first. It is not always possible. I am in this boat as are a few of my friends that have $10K to $30K systems and they are limited as to what they can do with a room. Therefore, I hand picked my system to sound the best with my room.

[Moby]

80% of your budget on the best speakers , bigger differences here than any other component ..

I can't resist coming back to this thread due to the quoted recommendation. So, let's say I have a $20,000 budget. I should spend $16,000 on the speakers and $4,000 total on source, amp and cables? Let's look at how that might work out with the best Stereophile recommended components available in the budget given those parameters:
Revel Salon2 or Sonus faber Guarneri Tradition
Parasound Halo Integrated
Oppo UDP-205 Universal Player or Music Hall MMF 5.3 turntable with Ortofon 3M Blue MM cartridge
Blue Jean Cables
The Revels at 88.7dB sensitivity rating into a nominal six-Ohm load likely could use more power than what is available from the Parasound. The Sonus Fabers are even less efficient - 87dB/ a nominal 4 ohm load. Both are terrific speakers but, I’ve got to say that in my view this is a ridiculously out of balance system and the chain up to the speakers is not going to give you the quality signal and power those speakers deserve. IMHO

[Mechnutt]

$20K budget-

PSB Imagine 3 speakers $7K, Elac Adante $5K

Schiitt Yggdrasil DAC about $2200 Chord Qute $1800

Clear Audio Concept TT or Music Hall MMF 7.3, 9.3 for $1500-$2000

Ortofon Black, Clear Audio Concept or Hana cartridge $700-$1000

$1K for phono preamp

That leaves $7K-$9K for amp, integrated or separates. Hegel Integrated H360 with DAC $5K, PSA Stellar 700 monoblocks $3K

[Moby]

Mechnutt - This is more like the balance I’d look for.

[Mechnutt]

Mechnutt - This is more like the balance I’d look for.

All that gear that I listed has that bang for the buck factor. They perform way above their price points and compete with gear costing thousands more. Stereophile consistently says the PSB's compete with speakers in the $15K-20K range.

[Moby]

That is the rationale for most of what is in my system, particularly my amp and speakers (both of which cost 2/3rds or less of the cost of their predecessors in my system) but filled the bill exactly. Other items were purchased as demos at a considerable savings - my phono pre, my DAC, my subwoofer - or used, such as my SACD player. Where I went nuts and totally out of balance is on my TT/tonearm/cartridge, but I can really hear the difference and my intent is to be buried with that rig.

[a.wayne]

I can't resist coming back to this thread due to the quoted recommendation. So, let's say I have a $20,000 budget. I should spend $16,000 on the speakers and $4,000 total on source, amp and cables? Let's look at how that might work out with the best Stereophile recommended components available in the budget given those parameters:
Revel Salon2 or Sonus faber Guarneri Tradition
Parasound Halo Integrated
Oppo UDP-205 Universal Player or Music Hall MMF 5.3 turntable with Ortofon 3M Blue MM cartridge
Blue Jean Cables
The Revels at 88.7dB sensitivity rating into a nominal six-Ohm load likely could use more power than what is available from the Parasound. The Sonus Fabers are even less efficient - 87dB/ a nominal 4 ohm load. Both are terrific speakers but, I’ve got to say that in my view this is a ridiculously out of balance system and the chain up to the speakers is not going to give you the quality signal and power those speakers deserve. IMHO

i do agree with your assessment here because you spent good money on expensive speakers hard to deliver and worse Parasound .

Revels and fabers , will require tons in electronics to achieve , also i had assumed digital front End, if doing analog you will have to flip the percentages around , 60/40 would be reasonable , lots of details are lost with speakers ..

20K budget ..

Magnapan 3.7i with 4 powered subs , i would stack the subs L/R , amplification can be purchased used but stay away from parasound if you like real as opposed to hifi sound ..

[a.wayne]

$20K budget-

PSB Imagine 3 speakers $7K, Elac Adante $5K

Schiitt Yggdrasil DAC about $2200 Chord Qute $1800

Clear Audio Concept TT or Music Hall MMF 7.3, 9.3 for $1500-$2000

Ortofon Black, Clear Audio Concept or Hana cartridge $700-$1000

$1K for phono preamp

That leaves $7K-$9K for amp, integrated or separates. Hegel Integrated H360 with DAC $5K, PSA Stellar 700 monoblocks $3K

No amt of amplification would get those speakers to sound like real music , i would go for better speakers ,,bigger differences there than in the amplification...

[a.wayne]

That is the rationale for most of what is in my system, particularly my amp and speakers (both of which cost 2/3rds or less of the cost of their predecessors in my system) but filled the bill exactly. Other items were purchased as demos at a considerable savings - my phono pre, my DAC, my subwoofer - or used, such as my SACD player. Where I went nuts and totally out of balance is on my TT/tonearm/cartridge, but I can really hear the difference and my intent is to be buried with that rig.

wouldn't you say , the Harbeth 30.1 is under powered in your current rig ... ??

[Jack]

a.wayne

So your saying that JA and Doug Schneider and many others don't know what good speakers sound like but you do. I highly doubt that to be the case also the same applies to the Parasound gear designed by John Curl. These broad sweeping generalizations of yours are not particularly helpful.

[a.wayne]

Neither is your unqualified critism of my opinion , Jack ...!

[a.wayne]

Step 1: I purchased a Pr of Parasound amplfiers , sad sounding but with enough big parts i thought it was worth a go ,

Step 2: I went as far as to ask John Curl to assist in the mods , at the time i was in contact with John and he declined as he was in agreement , suggested i get the real Curl amp the JC-1 ..

I sold and moved on ..!

Built my own ...

Now where did i criticise John Atkinson and that other Bloke ...??

I'm offering my opinion as asked , as everyone else , i stand by them , Buy the best speakers possible ..

BTW, FYI , John only designed the JC-1's ...

[Jack]

How about "No amt of amplification would get those speakers to sound like real music." If you pronouncements appeared to be presented as opinions with evidence that you had heard them that would be one thing instead they are written as statements of unchallengeable fact. And in case you haven't read his review here is JA's opinion of the PSB speaker in question.

"Paul Barton has done it again, he has raised the bar for affordable reference speakers, we have found that a pair of the PSB T3's, with good electronics, and a good source, will give you one hell of sound!"

[kzhtoo]

For $20k budget, Magico A3 is a no brainer.

[a.wayne]

How about "No amt of amplification would get those speakers to sound like real music." If you pronouncements appeared to be presented as opinions with evidence that you had heard them that would be one thing instead they are written as statements of unchallengeable fact. And in case you haven't read his review here is JA's opinion of the PSB speaker in question.

"Paul Barton has done it again, he has raised the bar for affordable reference speakers, we have found that a pair of the PSB T3's, with good electronics, and a good source, will give you one hell of sound!"

No, Jack , thats your wrong assesment of my opinion same as it is of JA opinion on the PSB. Let me reiterate , I currently and whole heartedly stand behind my opinion that a pr of Maggie 3.7i with subs cans any PSB speaker, of course with all due respect to Mr Barton ...

[Moby]

This thread was also not intended to start arguments about which specific components are best. Please keep it civil.

[Moby]

wouldn't you say , the Harbeth 30.1 is under powered in your current rig ... ??

Nope. Best sounding speaker I’ve owned and perfect for the music I tend to listen too, my room and seating area. The REL sub fills it out seamlessly into lower registers. Harbeths are amazing and the 40.2 would be too large for my application. If I listened to a lot of metal, yeah I’d probably go with a larger full range but I don’t.

If you’re referring to my PrimaLuna HP Integrated, it’s 70wpc in ultra linear mode and can be bumped up to 100 wpc with tube rolling. It sounds great and can get plenty clean and loud in my room. Add the powered REL sub and there’s no stress at all. The crucial factor is that it’s very musical. It replaced a McIntosh MA6600 Integrated at 200 wpc.

[Try1256]

Over the past couple of years I have replaced my entire system one component at a time. Each component brought its own level of improvement but was also dependent on it's compatiblility with the other components in line. I am at the point where everything is playing together well and I am very happy with the system. However, the most dramatic improvement I experienced was when I purchased the "Get Better Sound" book and dvd. I say this from the perspective of having a small, difficult room to work with and limited options in the arrangement of the room. I followed he basic tips in Mr. Smith's book/dvd and the change in my listening experience was remarkable. For the most part, it only involved small adjustments to my listening position and speaker placement/toe in. I already had some basic acoustical treatment but nothing very elaborate or expensive. Without addressing the interface of the room and the sound system, maximum performance will be an elusive target.

[UltraFast69]

I ended up integrating




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[Moby]

Ugh. Thanks for adding tasteless misogyny to the thread.

[Mikado463]

Mechnutt - This is more like the balance I’d look for.

classic audiophile comeback......... you asked for thoughts / opinions yet in the end all you're looking for is confirmation of you're own personal biases !!

[Mikado463]

I ended up integrating




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now that's a 'wide soundstage' !!

[Moby]

classic audiophile comeback......... you asked for thoughts / opinions yet in the end all you're looking for is confirmation of you're own personal biases !!

What, I’m not allowed to express an opinion? I don’t need confirmation, I was interested in others views. But you’re apparently only interested in being a troll - thanks, but I’m not playing.

[a.wayne]

Ugh. Thanks for adding tasteless misogyny to the thread.

Agree , why add a tasteless stereo ....

[Jim Smith]

Room/system setup important. Yeah, I get it, that’s why I spend hours and hours on it over several weeks when I set up a system or change components. Now explain to me how this relates to the topic of the post.

Spending time and getting it right are - IME - not related, and sadly, the disparity is all too often.

Please post an image of your set-up, as well as an image of your listening area.

That'll give us an idea of how far along you are.

I'll say it again, no amount of money spent on components can equal the results produced from effective time and effort spent on proper system set-up.

Plus, it becomes far easier - and much more reliable - to evaluate the relative merits of possible new components.

[Moby]

I don’t really understand why it has become a thing on this thread to discuss my room/system set up. While I appreciate the concern, it really is off topic. And for those of you who are concerned, this is not my first rodeo. I’ve been trained by Sonus Fabre/Sumiko specialists on how to do it properly years ago, have done it many times in different homes, have read up extensively on the subject, and currently set up my system with a friend of mine who used to do it for a living. It involved selecting the listening space (limited options there), moving furniture for the seating position, and moving the speakers and the sub an inch at a time to their best locations and toe in while listening. I double check this if I change a major component. So I appreciate the concern, but my system is set up correctly for my listening space - can we please put this issue to bed?