Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

[a.wayne]

Agreed.

Having never heard a vinyl playback rig - no matter how expensive - performing at it's full potential - in hundreds of high end audio systems, whether owned by audiophiles, reviewers or dealers, I have always privately wondered why the owner persists.

In most every instance (assuming basics such as location & mechanical set-up are good), about an hour's worth or so of adjustment & listening could easily address most of the issues, and take it to a much higher level.

All too often, a huge waste of money, because the potential is never reached.

IMO, of course.

Also, I'm NOT saying that there aren't some vinyl playback rigs that sound awesome, performing to their full potential. I simply have never encountered one in the hundreds of occasions listed above.

In those cases, digital done right makes more sense. Again, IMO.

Jim,

How many digital systems have you heard sound right , as i very rarely hear systems which sound to their full potential, analog or digital without work ...

[AJ Soundfield]

Is the real thing Digital ..?

It sure ain't vinyl

[AJ Soundfield]

Jim,

How many digital systems have you heard sound right , as i very rarely hear systems which sound to their full potential, analog or digital without work ...

Mr Wayne, how many digital PSR, WFS, etc virtual reality mch systems have you experienced?

[a.wayne]

That is an opinion free of objective facts and easily falsified. Dynamic range is a measured metric, not an opinion.


Another opinion. Seeing a trend....
If the "highest level" is noise, clicks, pops, wow and flutter, rumble, crosstalk, groove distortions, limited dynamic range, poor deep bass archaic stereo, sure.

I guess you figured repeating circle jargon gets you off .

vinyl is capable of at least 60 dB of dynamic range , please advise how anyone here, audio system would be limited by this ..

[a.wayne]

Mr Wayne, how many digital PSR, WFS, etc virtual reality mch systems have you experienced?

Lost count on my Holo suite usuage ...

[a.wayne]

It sure ain't vinyl

Its yea or no , try it ....

[AJ Soundfield]

vinyl is capable of at least 60 dB of dynamic range

Excellent, now we are getting somewhere. So we can expect to measure at least 60db dynamic range above the silence with your records come Nov.
Ok.

[AJ Soundfield]

Lost count on my Holo suite usuage ...

Houston we have a problem.

(but we knew that). The danger of living in an echo chamber is very real...

[a.wayne]

Excellent, now we are getting somewhere. So we can expect to measure at least 60db dynamic range above the silence with your records come Nov.
Ok.

After we measure the 120db DR you claim your digital has ..

[a.wayne]

Possibly, but other albums would likely exhibit the same behavior. This sounds like a bad pressing x 4.

I’m not saying one is better than the other, Lord knows Digital has its own demons. But $50 noisy pressings that are also punched off center drive me nuts.


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Can believe that , stamping and pressing is an art to make right , most doing it today have limited experience ..

[a.wayne]

That is an opinion free of objective facts and easily falsified. Dynamic range is a measured metric, not an opinion.


Another opinion. Seeing a trend....
If the "highest level" is noise, clicks, pops, wow and flutter, rumble, crosstalk, groove distortions, limited dynamic range, poor deep bass archaic stereo, sure.

Whats the linear XMax on your woofers ..?

[AJ Soundfield]

The exact opposite. I regularly hear a system capable of 120+ db dynamic range, with much lower noise, distortion, higher channel separation, lower temporal distortion, vastly better bass depth and power, than any objectively limited vinyl system regardless of price.

After we measure the 120db DR you claim digital have

You still wear glasses?

Btw, 20bits is 120db

[AJ Soundfield]

Whats the linear XMax on your woofers ..?

The 18s, 15s, 12s, 10s or 8s? You'd have to be a bit more specific.
For example, the TC15s around 20mm, the AE dipole18s around 12mm, the Rythmik servos 18mm, etc etc, but of course xmech is higher.

[rbbert]

You still wear glasses?

Btw, 20bits is 120db

Yes, but...

finding a system that will play 120 dB above the ambient noise floor is next to impossible. Even rock concert systems won’t do that, except perhaps in extreme cases, and they won’t sound good doing it. Even allowing for perceptions of some audio information a little below the ambient noise floor, going 120 dB above that is unlikely.

[AJ Soundfield]

Yes, but...

finding a system that will play 120 dB above the ambient noise floor is next to impossible.

True, which is exactly why I didn't say "above the noise floor".
When one experiences 120db peak at a concert hall, it's certainly not above the noise floor either.
But being able to produce that 120db peak, is key for "realism".
Vinyl? Please...

[AJ Soundfield]

Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
If the "highest level" is noise, clicks, pops, wow and flutter, rumble, crosstalk, groove distortions, limited dynamic range, poor deep bass archaic stereo, sure.

I guess you figured repeating circle jargon gets you off .

So you don't deny those are all objective facts and that you prefer them.
Good, because I did say at the start folks can prefer whatever they prefer.
Heck, if a wax cylinder or 8-track does it for you, enjoy.

[Spock]

I´m ok with the digital performance and dynamics of my system.
But, to be true, a few months ago i was surprised with the subjectiv dynamics of an analog reprodution (vinyl) in a friend of mine system.
Not everything was right. No. I like a better definiton in the bass and, me too, i don´t like clicks and pops in the background.
But when he put some classic music, and just when i thought the system was going to fail, i was a bit shocked because i almost could swear i was listening with more dynamic. The subjective perception of most dynamic was there and i remember that was really enjoyable.

[Al M.]

I´m ok with the digital performance and dynamics of my system.
But, to be true, a few months ago i was surprised with the subjectiv dynamics of an analog reprodution (vinyl) in a friend of mine system.
Not everything was right. No. I like a better definiton in the bass and, me too, i don´t like clicks and pops in the background.
But when he put some classic music, and just when i thought the system was going to fail, i was a bit shocked because i almost could swear i was listening with more dynamic. The subjective perception of most dynamic was there and i remember that was really enjoyable.

That was my point too. It is a fact that LP measures a dynamic range of 60 to 70 dB, but it can sound outrageously dynamic, especially on 45 rpm. That's what my ears tell me as a fact as well. I believe in facts just as much as AJ Soundfield, but where we may depart is that I do not let measurements overrule what I hear. If what I hear does not correlate with measurements then it must be that the particular measurement does not have the relevance that it is ascribed to. You can easily become dogmatic about measurements, but as a scientist (biochemist) I have learned to be very skeptical of simpleminded dogmatism.

And like I said, it may very well be that AJ Soundfield never has heard top level vinyl and its dynamic capabilities. He may feel insulted and will assert otherwise, but without evidence I have no way of knowing his assertions are true.

[AJ Soundfield]

That was my point too. It is a fact that LP measures a dynamic range of 60 to 70 dB

Please state which one, otherwise there is no way of knowing whether your assertions are true.

but it can sound outrageously dynamic, especially on 45 rpm. That's what my ears tell me as a fact as well.

An anecdotal fact??

And like I said, it may very well be that AJ Soundfield never has heard top level vinyl and its dynamic capabilities. He may feel insulted and will assert otherwise, but without evidence I have no way of knowing his assertions are true.

Sure, that's possible despite hearing hundreds, exhibited at over 10 audio shows, Mikes systems at home and shop, phono related manufactures, etc, possibly even more systems that you ever have. But it is equally a fact you've never heard a top level digital system. You may feel insulted and assert otherwise, without evidence I have no way of knowing your assertions are true.
Btw, we are going to be using one of Mikes systems in Nov. Have you informed him of its inadequacy already?

cheers,

AJ

[rbbert]

True, which is exactly why I didn't say "above the noise floor".
When one experiences 120db peak at a concert hall, it's certainly not above the noise floor either.
But being able to produce that 120db peak, is key for "realism".
Vinyl? Please...

you did post “dynamic range”, though, not maximum volume. Nitpicking, true, but many of your debating points seem to depend on that. You will notice that I currently have no analog source in my system, so I’m not really disagreeing with you.

[AJ Soundfield]

you did post “dynamic range”, though, not maximum volume.

Correct, of the system. What is your nitpick? You are including room noise? At what frequency?
Btw, please quote my post for brevity.

[Al M.]

But it is equally a fact you've never heard a top level digital system. You may feel insulted and assert otherwise, without evidence I have no way of knowing your assertions are true.

I did hear the full Vivaldi stack, and in a home system repeatedly the Vivaldi DAC plus Upsampler, and I have also heard other top level DACs. Did they perform to their full potential? I don't know.

Of course if you assert that only multichannel digital is top level digital, that is your prerogative. If you wish to do so, be my guest.

But remember, I am not anti digital, quite to the contrary. I do not question digital, not at all its potential and less and less its implementation. In fact, I love the implementation that I hear in my system.

And yes, my digital sounds outrageously dynamic.

[AJ Soundfield]

I did hear the full Vivaldi stack, and in a home system repeatedly the Vivaldi DAC plus Upsampler, and I have also heard other top level DACs. Did they perform to their full potential? I don't know.

Well, IMO it is the amp/speakers that determine dynamics of the system.
Yes, the DAC plays a role in the nuances of system sound...but the only speakers make the dynamic soundwaves my ears can hear.

Of course if you assert that only multichannel digital is top level digital, that is your prerogative. If you wish to do so, be my guest.

If...and that's a big if, we are talking about realistically recreating a soundfield perceptually, that is no assertion. That's been know since the 1930s.
Here you go if interested:
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2002STIN...0286499H
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9136
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6508825/
http://www2.ensc.sfu.ca/~ljilja/cnl/.../cvetkovic.pdf

And yes, my digital sounds outrageously dynamic.

Mine too, as this is where I must end for now as I totally immerse myself in some Beethoven as heard in concert halls

[Al M.]

Mine too, as this is where I must end for now as I totally immerse myself in some Beethoven as heard in concert halls

Enjoy your Beethoven! I very much enjoyed his music today too, like always.

[PeterA]

Interesting. Is the comparison done as I stated earlier for validity, vinyl>dual out phono pre>direct through 1 input of preamp, then also through an ADA loop>2 input of pre, level matched and then instantaneously compared? So every bit of sound, even clicks, pops, surface noise, crosstalk, everything is coming through real time and heard?
If not, please say how this vinyl vs digital comparison is being done, thanks.


Yes, that is a pretty small sample size. Any members of BAS?

It's pretty simple AJ. We visit each other and listen to music for an afternoon. We have fun. We listen to both vinyl and digital. In the end, I usually prefer the vinyl. I also happen to think it sounds more convincing. I don't know if it was level matched and the signal certainly did not go through an ADA loop. I don't think the vinyl sounds exactly like the real thing, but it sounds more like the real thing than does the digital, to me. You may argue that that is just a preference. That is fine. Call it what you like. The thread is about analog vinyl being the benchmark. For me, it still is. For others, it may not be. For you it definitely is not. That is also fine.

I don't know if any of these guys is a member of the Boston Audio Society. Sure, it is a small sample size, but still, 100% of us listen to reproduced music and to live orchestral music at the BSO, so we know what the real thing sounds like.

[mauidan]

Mahalo to Mr.Smith and and PeterA for responding to my post.

Has anyone on this forum every listen to or purchased a AJ Soundfield speaker?


Today, 02:50 PM

[AJ Soundfield]

It's pretty simple AJ. We visit each other and listen to music for an afternoon. We have fun. We listen to both vinyl and digital. In the end, I usually prefer the vinyl. I also happen to think it sounds more convincing. I don't know if it was level matched and the signal certainly did not go through an ADA loop.

That does sound simple and fun. But, unfortunately as I knew, totally invalid. You were in no way comparing just vinyl to digital. You forgot all the other differences, like recordings, levels, etc physically, then things like expectation biases, beliefs, etc, etc.
The method I described is an actual test of vinyl vs "digital". It is a "digital" version of the actual vinyl itself, being played in real time, not a rip, etc. The ears you trust just listens to the vinyl exactly as you normally would, then switch to another input of your very own transparency, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. preamp and hear the "digital" version of the vinyl, in real time, clicks, pops, rumble, crosstalk, etc, etc, every bit coming through "digitally".
You can probably imagine how easy it is to hear all the very real digititis stuff on the one input. Oh, btw, you won't know which input is which beforehand, as not to create any expectations. Mr Wayne is going to show us just how easy. Stay tuned, it will be as you confirmed, lots of fun.

I don't think the vinyl sounds exactly like the real thing, but it sounds more like the real thing than does the digital, to me.

Given the type of comparisons and systems you are exposed to, hardly surprising. Yes, it's long been known vinyl doesn't sound like the real thing and if you've read any of my links, you might see science has also known and left that behind a long time ago. Would you have been interested in an audiophile exposure to outside systems experience like this?
http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm

You may argue that that is just a preference. That is fine. Call it what you like. The thread is about analog vinyl being the benchmark. For me, it still is. For others, it may not be. For you it definitely is not. That is also fine.

Yes, I was very clear up front that arguing preferences is silly, arguing objective facts like noise, distortion, crosstalk, frequency response, dynamic range, groove echo, wear, etc, etc. isn't .
Though of course some folks might prefer all.

I don't know if any of these guys is a member of the Boston Audio Society.

Ok, was just checking to see if any might have the technical knowledge to do the valid comparison I detailed, that's all. Many BAS members should.

Sure, it is a small sample size, but still, 100% of us listen to reproduced music and to live orchestral music at the BSO, so we know what the real thing sounds like.

And recognize the limitations of vinyl compared to it, good. As you agree, we all have our preferences and some prefer vinyl, while others like myself, prefer something closer to the article linked above, which is distinctly a non-vinyl type experience.

cheers,

AJ

p.s, so with no digital in your system, how do you address all the bass mode peaks and dips etc in your room? You don't mind hearing them?

[AJ Soundfield]

Has anyone on this forum every listen to or purchased a AJ Soundfield speaker?

Haven't bought one but I've heard them all.

[Kingrex]

I was at a local store and heard a 5 channel system through Bose speakers. It was very immersing. I quite liked it.

Did anyone ever stop to think, at most concerts the musician play one small amp, then mic through the PA. So, is it real or reproduces via EV /JBL drivers and Crown amps. Maybe the way to real Concert sound is to give up on audiophile amps and drivers and use the real thing.

[AJ Soundfield]

I was at a local store and heard a 5 channel system through Bose speakers. It was very immersing. I quite liked it.

Heresy, you just revoked your audiophile card

Did anyone ever stop to think, at most concerts the musician play one small amp, then mic through the PA. So, is it real or reproduces via EV /JBL drivers and Crown amps. Maybe the way to real Concert sound is to give up on audiophile amps and drivers and use the real thing.

All kidding aside, quite astute. Yes, what better way to recreate that kind of concert sound than with actual concert sound type speakers! Actually, there are some bonafide audiophile systems that use what are "PA" speakers, JBL, Danley Soundlabs, QSC etc that folks swear by. Obviously no bling looks but for those who prioritize sound over all other factors, might be the ticket. As always YMMV.
Those super high sensitivity designs are like electron microscopes for any system noise. So with stuff like vinyl...beware.

cheers,

AJ

[PeterA]

p.s, so with no digital in your system, how do you address all the bass mode peaks and dips etc in your room? You don't mind hearing them?

Jim Smith addressed them as best he could, first through measurements, then by listening to carefully locate the listening seat position and then speaker positions. The room is not perfect, but by the time he left, the sound was pretty darn good.

The funny thing is that I sometimes attend small ensemble performances in actual chamber settings. A couple of years ago, I changed seats during the break between movements. I distinctly remember hearing a bass node peak during the solo cello. No, I did not really mind hearing that. I quickly noticed it, mentioned it to my friend, and enjoyed the rest of the performance. After all, it was a real performance of acoustic instruments in a real space, the way the instruments were originally meant to be heard. I certainly would not have wanted that performance mic'd, amplified, and then altered digitally to rid the room of bass mode peaks and dips.

[PeterA]

Heresy, you just revoked your audiophile card


All kidding aside, quite astute. Yes, what better way to recreate that kind of concert sound than with actual concert sound type speakers! Actually, there are some bonafide audiophile systems that use what are "PA" speakers, JBL, Danley Soundlabs, QSC etc that folks swear by. Obviously no bling looks but for those who prioritize sound over all other factors, might be the ticket. As always YMMV.
Those super high sensitivity designs are like electron microscopes for any system noise. So with stuff like vinyl...beware.

cheers,

AJ

So are we now saying that the benchmark is amplified electronic instruments on a stage: "that kind of concert sound"? If so, it reminds me of a fascinating experience I had at the NYC audio show in 2012 or so. One exhibitor demoed a small KEF speaker system playing some amplified pop music recorded to digital. The volume was extreme. Distortion was high and it was a very unpleasant experience. He concluded by inviting us to a live show in one of the hotel's function rooms later that evening. My friend and I went and ate bad cheese on stale crackers and drank dreadful red wine. The band then played. The speakers were KEF monitors. The volume was outrageous and again the distortion made me cringe. I left pretty quickly, but not before telling my friend that that KEF/digital system we heard earlier that afternoon reminded me more than any other audiophile system we heard during the entire show of the live performance.

So sure, if the standard is loud, distorted, amplified instruments, then I can see how that KEF/digital system sounded pretty much like the real thing. I'll never forget the lesson I learned that day.

[AJ Soundfield]

Jim Smith addressed them as best he could, first through measurements, then by listening to carefully locate the listening seat position and then speaker positions. The room is not perfect, but by the time he left, the sound was pretty darn good.

Well I must congratulate you. You are the first audiophile I've met whose system hasn't changed in over seven years!

The funny thing is that I sometimes attend small ensemble performances in actual chamber settings. A couple of years ago, I changed seats during the break between movements. I distinctly remember hearing a bass node peak during the solo cello. No, I did not really mind hearing that. I quickly noticed it, mentioned it to my friend, and enjoyed the rest of the performance. After all, it was a real performance of acoustic instruments in a real space, the way the instruments were originally meant to be heard. I certainly would not have wanted that performance mic'd, amplified, and then altered digitally to rid the room of bass mode peaks and dips.

So essentially, you ignore the coloration, even if it adds to piano, vocals, etc, etc.
Fascinating and I think somewhat typical of vinyl aficionados. They simply gate out the things that drive me nuts! They "listen through" all the things I never hear ever in a concert hall, as if it isn't present.
I too have attended small ensemble practices at USF (local U) but never heard any droning, ringing bass modes, nor clicks, pops, wow&flutter, etc.
Might be why I prefer digital. Differences in references.

cheers,

AJ

[AJ Soundfield]

So are we now saying that the benchmark is amplified electronic instruments on a stage?

For some folks sure. You and I seem to lean towards acoustic/unamplified, but others might not. Yet another preference scenario.

[Willco]

In response to the earlier post comparingPhotography and audio.

As a professional fine art photographer I can agree the parallel with photography is a good one. However, if you know what you’re doing from Image capture through the printing process, high-end digital camera backs will equal or surpass 4 x 5 and 8 x 10 sheet film. But, like audio, it requires Knowledge and experience to do so. Just had to comment on that as it so common for people to assume analog photography is “better“ than the highest level digital.

[PeterA]

Well I must congratulate you. You are the first audiophile I've met whose system hasn't changed in over seven years!


So essentially, you ignore the coloration, even if it adds to piano, vocals, etc, etc.
Fascinating and I think somewhat typical of vinyl aficionados. They simply gate out the things that drive me nuts! They "listen through" all the things I never hear ever in a concert hall, as if it isn't present.
I too have attended small ensemble practices at USF (local U) but never heard any droning, ringing bass modes, nor clicks, pops, wow&flutter, etc.
Might be why I prefer digital. Differences in references.

cheers,

AJ

AJ, you are making too many assumptions and IMO trying way too hard to prove something. I never said I ignore the coloration. Nor do I care if it adds to piano, vocals, etc. There is no absolute sound precisely because there is so much variation between instruments and acoustic spaces and the way we hear them. The best we can hope for is to enjoy a somewhat convincing sound from our systems.

I attended a concert of a real instrument being well played in a real space. I simply enjoyed the performance with my friends. I noticed a bass node peak when I changed my seat and commented to by audiophile buddy. I enjoyed the performance, nevertheless. There was nothing not real about it. Nor would I have wanted it "corrected" digitally. I guess that is my preference. And as you say, there is nothing more to discuss when it comes to preferences.

Happy Father's Day! I'm going sailing.

[Mike]

I was at a local store and heard a 5 channel system through Bose speakers. It was very immersing. I quite liked it.

Did anyone ever stop to think, at most concerts the musician play one small amp, then mic through the PA. So, is it real or reproduces via EV /JBL drivers and Crown amps. Maybe the way to real Concert sound is to give up on audiophile amps and drivers and use the real thing.

The standard, to me, is unamplified live music in a good acoustic setting.


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[Al M.]

The standard, to me, is unamplified live music in a good acoustic setting.

+ 1

Otherwise we are really just talking about preferences, not quality (J. Gordon Holt said something to that effect as well).

[Kingrex]

I was at a local store and heard a 5 channel system through Bose speakers. It was very immersing. I quite liked it.

Did anyone ever stop to think, at most concerts the musician play one small amp, then mic through the PA. So, is it real or reproduces via EV /JBL drivers and Crown amps. Maybe the way to real Concert sound is to give up on audiophile amps and drivers and use the real thing.

Excuse me, they were B&W, not Bose.

[AJ Soundfield]

AJ, you are making too many assumptions and IMO trying way too hard to prove something. I never said I ignore the coloration. Nor do I care if it adds to piano, vocals, etc.
There is no absolute sound precisely because there is so much variation between instruments and acoustic spaces and the way we hear them. The best we can hope for is to enjoy a somewhat convincing sound from our systems.

Well, whether it's ignore or don't care, it seems that your room coloration doesn't bother you either way.
Here's the issue with that. If that performance was recorded, with say a 6db boost in the cello bass at say 100Hz, then you play it back in your room with with a 6db 100Hz room mode peak, now you have a 12db peak.
IOW, you have added an "un" real spectral coloration, that never existed live. A different thing than a spectral coloration in the recording. From my point of view, every added coloration, noise, hiss, pops, clicks, crosstalk and frequency distortions, all subtract from "realness". If one's interest is as JGH explained, as close to the "real thing" as possible, then any coloration becomes an impediment.

I attended a concert of a real instrument being well played in a real space. I simply enjoyed the performance with my friends. I noticed a bass node peak when I changed my seat and commented to by audiophile buddy. I enjoyed the performance, nevertheless. There was nothing not real about it. Nor would I have wanted it "corrected" digitally.

Peter, you're a bit confused here. The digital correction is not of the recording, it's of your venue, your room and it's spectral coloration of all recordings. That was the correction I refer to, nothing to do with the recording or performance venue whatsoever.

Happy Father's Day! I'm going sailing.

Same to you, be safe and enjoy!

[Jim Smith]

The standard, to me, is unamplified live music in a good acoustic setting.


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Might be a good place to retire this thread, as all parties (ok, including me) are convinced that they are right, and the arguments are being repeated & repeated & repeated...

IMO, this forum is more enjoyable than most at least partially due to its more typical threads.


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[Kingrex]

I was at a 3 piece and they mic the snare. It was so loud on the brush it made it unpleasant. I told someone at intermission but they acted like I was an idiot.

[Mike]

Might be a good place to retire this thread, as all parties (ok, including me) are convinced that they are right, and the arguments are being repeated & repeated & repeated...

IMO, this forum is more enjoyable than most at least partially due to its more typical threads.


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I tend to agree.


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