What is it that makes some pre-amps stand out from others

[Jozua]

Hi

Over the years I have bought quite a few pre-amps. They all had different signatures. Two top end Krell pre's and one tube based ARC preamp plus quite a few DIY versions.

From a technical perspective they al three measure well.

The question is now, why such huge differences in sound? For example can the difference between a ARC Ref 5 and ARC Ref 6 be measured?

From a designer's perspective, what attributes do you aim for in the design?

Over to the experts

Thank


Jozua

[Jozua]

Hi

I was hoping for some expert input so let me speculate re the possible causes for the sonic differences ....

a) Each pre-amp has different distortion attributes - hence the "house/brand" sound? I remember one university professor claiming that they had measured most commercial amps distortion attributes and were able emulate the attributes of any high end amplifier with their digital amp.
b) Impedance mismatching between components alters the sound?
c) Power supply differences (build aka component) quality?
d) Ability to filter mains?
d) Optimum working temperature for components (cold start vs standby mode) ?

Take care

J

[audio.bill]

Jozua - If it were only as simple as a couple of factors determining the ultimate sound quality of an audio component (or specifically a preamp) being a design engineer would be a much simpler obsession! The truth is that in high end audio design every detail matters, possibly even beyond what we can currently measure. The attributes you noted all have an impact and the list goes on... Of course tubes and transistors have unique distortion characteristics as well as also being affected by passive component and other implementation choices including power supply design. Some feel that if a difference can't be measured it can't be audible, while many of us believe that if an audible difference can't be measured we may either be measuring the wrong thing or that current measurement techniques are simply inadequate to detect and quantify what human hearing is actually capable of perceiving. Then we can get into perception analysis which is another topic of its own.

[Mechnutt]

Having built a DIY Pass Labs B1 preamp/buffer and using boutique parts- Clarity and Mundorf Caps, Audio Note, Shinkoh Tantalum, Carbon and Naked Z-foil Resistors, I can honestly say that each part contributed to the sound. I tried different caps and they all sounded different. I was looking for tight bass, warm smooth and detailed sound and hit it spot on after researching each part before purchasing them. I also bought 2 remote volume pots, a Blue Alps ($45) and a TKD ($115) and they sounded remarkably different. The Blue Alps was smooth and warm and the TKD was more detailed but bright sounding.

So I guess I am saying the sound of a preamp is the sum of its parts.

[Jozua]

Thanks gents. Love your input !

[hifinutt]

only thing i know is when i had a ref 5 and ref 5se it made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up , very few other pre amps have done that and i have had a huge amount of them . took your breathe away sometimes with the realism

[Speedskater]

If they sounded different in an ears only listening test. It would be easy for a skilled engineer with the correct measurement equipment to measure the important differences, right there without changing anything in the equipment setup.

But a real test like this seldom happens in the audiophile world.

[UltraFast69]

System synergy.

My position is to use the same maker of the preamp with the amp for a certain match.

There are some proven different maker combinations but with so many variables between cabling, speakers, the room...it would be too hard IMO to do as someone else does without the same exact characteristics.

[Jozua]

System synergy.

My position is to use the same maker of the preamp with the amp for a certain match.

There are some proven different maker combinations but with so many variables between cabling, speakers, the room...it would be too hard IMO to do as someone else does without the same exact characteristics.

I tend to agree. I tried a Krell pre with a ARC Ref110 and there was a increase in the hiss level.

[Ryan Berry]

One of the biggest areas that we've spent regarding sound quality has been the volume control method. There's quite a few ways to handle volume control and every one of them has some drawback. Some are inexpensive while some are quite involved -- and almost all of them sacrifice sound quality for cost/ease of implementation/reliability that are out there. This really plays into the lower levels that you won't read about in a magazine or see in a review, as many times they're playing it louder to focus on the sound. Many times we turn the volume down to listen to music more passively where a lot of volume control solutions struggle to maintain clarity.

As you've noticed, most preamplifiers provide a "house sound" of some type that may or may not be pleasant, but is almost never what I'd consider transparent -- which is what I personally believe a preamplifier should be. Different brands get closer or further from this and it's near impossible to audition everything out there to find what is right. I have opinions about our gear, of course, but I'm not posting to advertise.

Audio.bill is exactly right in the fact that EVERYTHING matters. The transformer is vital, the regulation that handles the voltage coming from the transformer makes huge differences. The components involved and the material that they're made out of makes a difference...we even found the material that the feet the unit rests on are made out of has an effect on the sound (which is immensely annoying when you start getting into that level of adjustment). Tubes vs. solid state, balanced vs. unbalanced, feedback vs. no feedback...they all play a major role. We obviously have our preferences at Ayre, and they all tend to be the hardest way to design and work with a circuit. I really wish easy and best would line up now and again, but rarely do they cross paths in our experience.

As far as measurements...they really tell so little about a product in this industry. Products that measure worse often sound better than products with fantastic measurements. Two products with nearly identical measurements sound completely different from each other. The measurements are great in the sense it at least gives you something to look at since you can't listen to them all, but ultimately they don't do much in how well you'll enjoy the product or what coloration it may be adding to the sound. Charley used to say the most important measurements you can get for a unit is the weight and size. That way you'll know if it'll fit on your shelf and if it can support the weight of the product. I tend to agree.

Best Regards,

Ryan Berry
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.

[joeinid]

Welcome to the forum Ryan, very honored to have you here. Thank you for joining.

[Sean]

Ryan, welcome aboard! Thank you for the awesome insight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ryan Berry]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the welcome!

[Speedskater]

........................................
As far as measurements...they really tell so little about a product in this industry. Products that measure worse often sound better than products with fantastic measurements. Two products with nearly identical measurements sound completely different from each other. The measurements are great in the sense it at least gives you something to look at since you can't listen to them all, but ultimately they don't do much in how well you'll enjoy the product or what coloration it may be adding to the sound. Charley used to say the most important measurements you can get for a unit is the weight and size. That way you'll know if it'll fit on your shelf and if it can support the weight of the product. I tend to agree.
Best Regards,
Ryan Berry
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.

You have it backwards. It's listen first (ears only) and then measure to see why the sound different. Measurement is about differences and not about preferences. If the measurements don't show the meaningful differences, why then you made the wrong measurements.

[Ryan Berry]

You have it backwards. It's listen first (ears only) and then measure to see why the sound different. Measurement is about differences and not about preferences. If the measurements don't show the meaningful differences, why then you made the wrong measurements.

Great point, and I certainly don't disagree in the realm of R&D. Given enough time and resources, that's certainly an ideal approach to product design and understanding why this product sounds one way while another sounds different. Most people don't have such resources and many designers struggle to have enough time to hear everything, unfortunately.

My comment was more in regards to listeners choosing which products to listen to with their limited time, not design itself. With audio design, we generally have an idea by this point what may sound better than what and we start there. Then it's days of listening with only enough measurements to make sure we're not designing toward something unusable later...just because something sounds great, people wouldn't be too interested in it if it had bandwidth limitations, for example. Once it sounds just so, then the battery of tests begin to make sure it measures passably while maintaining the quality of sound we wanted. Then do it again, only better!

Even so, finding the right measurements to show why one amp has more clarity than another, or why one amp has a better soundstage than another often tends to be prohibitively time consuming to figure out how to measure for such things, if they can be at all. The ears usually tell more than an oscilloscope in that regard and I doubt we'll ever have a time that we can make a fully accurate prediction of how an amplifier may sound based solely on how it measures.

[BlueFox]

Personally, I think a lot of sonic differences, especially with cables, are occurring at the atomic level, and we can’t measure at that level. Yet.

[Randy Myers]

The more I play around with different gear, cables, etc., the more I tend to agree. I do not believe that measurements really tell a whole lot.

I also think with most gear the intangibles make a greater difference. The companies reputation, the "feel" of the piece both physical and the emotional connection you get. After all, the most important thing is how do you feel when listening to your system... the sound, the emotion.... things that cannot be measured but I truly believe affect what my ears hear.... sometimes a piece that simply feels better to me, either physically or emotionally will sound better, not because it truly sounds better, certainly not that it measures better...

[Speedskater]

Personally, I think a lot of sonic differences, especially with cables, are occurring at the atomic level, and we can’t measure at that level. Yet.

Oh dear.
If that's true, then the scientific, medical and instrumentation fields have a real problem.

[Kingrex]

Oh dear.
If that's true, then the scientific, medical and instrumentation fields have a real problem.

You ever hear of a miss diagnosis. Hmmm. How could a tool get it wrong