Taking my AMG V12 for a spin...

[trellis]

I think the Viella is a beautiful design, especially with the wooden frame. I am working with Brinkmann Audio and I would like to shed some light on the history of Brinkmann and AMG, as the rumors seem to be still out there. Werner Röschlau was one of Brinkmann Audio's three suppliers of turntable parts for 7 years until about 2007 (two years before the Bardo was introduced). Production of key parts and final assembly has always been done in-house at Brinkmann, but Werner was key in helping expanding the production. There was never a court case or the attempt to go to court between Brinkmann and AMG. We respect AMGs work, as we do with other manufacturers.

[joeinid]

Welcome to the forum, thank you for joining.

[Kuoppis]

I think the Viella is a beautiful design, especially with the wooden frame. I am working with Brinkmann Audio and I would like to shed some light on the history of Brinkmann and AMG, as the rumors seem to be still out there. Werner Röschlau was one of Brinkmann Audio's three suppliers of turntable parts for 7 years until about 2007 (two years before the Bardo was introduced). Production of key parts and final assembly has always been done in-house at Brinkmann, but Werner was key in helping expanding the production. There was never a court case or the attempt to go to court between Brinkmann and AMG. We respect AMGs work, as we do with other manufacturers.

Thank you for clarifying the facts trellis, I think wild rumors are rarely helpful for anyone. And as stated earlier, I think you really can’t go wrong with either choice. Any quandary would be complaining on a very high level, both undoubtedly world-class.

In my case, while personally initially focusing on the Bardo, testing both head-to-head at a local dealer’s however yielded a very clear results. I guess the more solid chassis, higher mass platter and vertical spiring-based tonearm innovation did the trick.


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[sharkmouth]

I think the Viella is a beautiful design, especially with the wooden frame. I am working with Brinkmann Audio and I would like to shed some light on the history of Brinkmann and AMG, as the rumors seem to be still out there. Werner Röschlau was one of Brinkmann Audio's three suppliers of turntable parts for 7 years until about 2007 (two years before the Bardo was introduced). Production of key parts and final assembly has always been done in-house at Brinkmann, but Werner was key in helping expanding the production. There was never a court case or the attempt to go to court between Brinkmann and AMG. We respect AMGs work, as we do with other manufacturers.

In regards to this I was actually quoting the Australian person who is the distributor of Brinkmann & has been for quite some time. I wonder who has the better creditability, him or you & is right??? Not that it really matters .....

[trellis]

Stuart and Audio Fidelity became our distributor in 2012 and they are doing great. I do not doubt anybody's credibility and certainly not the credibility of our Australian partner. Since you mention Audio Fidelity, they were probably referring to a patent application, that Werner filed and where Helmut Brinkmann claimed, that this has been previously described, which is part of the process when people file patent applications. The patent application has expired in 2012.

The problem with rumors is, they spread without knowing where they come from and where they go.

[sharkmouth]

Stuart and Audio Fidelity became our distributor in 2012 and they are doing great. I do not doubt anybody's credibility and certainly not the credibility of our Australian partner. Since you mention Audio Fidelity, they were probably referring to a patent application, that Werner filed and where Helmut Brinkmann claimed, that this has been previously described, which is part of the process when people file patent applications. The patent application has expired in 2012.

The problem with rumors is, they spread without knowing where they come from and where they go.

I'll tell you what, in the faith of good sportsmanship, ... I have just deleted a post that was very slamming towards you because there are a few holes in your reply to questions that beg the realization to my previous reply! You have actually admitted to knowledge only known to Brinkmann. Welcome!!! You are in a site that has many like minded people. Don't hide, please. Let these people "pick" your brains as this is a huge part of the peoples wish here as in "vinyl" lovers that want & "need" the fix from a guru that has a point of view from a manufacturers knowledge. Please in the faith of good spirits, start a new user name & educate us..... Welcome!

[trellis]

Sharkmouth, no intention to hide (I mention that I am with (work for) Brinkmann Audio in my first post). Since 2015 I was just a private reader on this forum, so this was my first post. I will create a user "Matthias" which is my real name, as it seems I am not able to change my profile name. I am happy for people to pick my brain, but don't expect me to be a guru :-)

[Matthias]

Here I am with a new profile.

[Mike]

Here I am with a new profile.

Hi Matthias - welcome!

[Matthias]

Thanks Mike!

[Kuoppis]

Here I am with a new profile.

Welcome Matthias, I am sure you can create great value on the forum.

Openness and honest disclosure is the only meaningful way forward.

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[sharkmouth]

Here I am with a new profile.

Thanks for the sincerity. Welcome to the Shark!

[Pallen]

Hello Kuoppis, I have just stumbled across your thread and I have read it with great interest. The AMG V12 was one of the darling TT’s 4-5 years ago and I read Alan Sircom’s 2014 review in detail. Things have gone a bit quiet on the forums since, so it has been great to read this discussion. I have an AMG V12 on order and I should take delivery of it in the next 2 weeks. Until now, I have owned a Palmer 2.5-12 turntable paired with a 12” AMG 12J2 tonearm finished in chrome (which I believe is the only one in existence). Quite an unusual combination.

I had the unique opportunity to compare my Palmer/AMG 12J2 with an AMG V12/AMG 12J2 in my system. It was not quite a fair fight as the Palmer was fitted with a Benz Wood SL and the AMG V12 with a Benz LP-S. But it gave me a reasonable idea of the underlying differences. The AMG V12 combo bought extra calmness and naturalness to the music, utterly clear and free of any artefacts. I’m sure AMG’s bearing design has something to do with this. The V12 combo also bought extra insight, focus and greater stage depth although how much of that is due to the Benz LP-S is hard to say. The Palmer combination delivered a slightly more voluptuous bass, whilst the AMG combo had cleaner punch on percussion.

I have seen one person on another forum describe the AMG as lacking drive and bass performance, but that certainly hasn’t been my experience. Often these judgements come down to using sensible combinations of gear, and setting the turntable up properly. Anyway, I thought my tale would be of interest. BTW, the reviews on the V12 by Alan Sircom and Michael Fremer have echoed my impressions.

[Kuoppis]

Hello Kuoppis, I have just stumbled across your thread and I have read it with great interest. The AMG V12 was one of the darling TT’s 4-5 years ago and I read Alan Sircom’s 2014 review in detail. Things have gone a bit quiet on the forums since, so it has been great to read this discussion. I have an AMG V12 on order and I should take delivery of it in the next 2 weeks. Until now, I have owned a Palmer 2.5-12 turntable paired with a 12” AMG 12J2 tonearm finished in chrome (which I believe is the only one in existence). Quite an unusual combination.

I had the unique opportunity to compare my Palmer/AMG 12J2 with an AMG V12/AMG 12J2 in my system. It was not quite a fair fight as the Palmer was fitted with a Benz Wood SL and the AMG V12 with a Benz LP-S. But it gave me a reasonable idea of the underlying differences. The AMG V12 combo bought extra calmness and naturalness to the music, utterly clear and free of any artefacts. I’m sure AMG’s bearing design has something to do with this. The V12 combo also bought extra insight, focus and greater stage depth although how much of that is due to the Benz LP-S is hard to say. The Palmer combination delivered a slightly more voluptuous bass, whilst the AMG combo had cleaner punch on percussion.

I have seen one person on another forum describe the AMG as lacking drive and bass performance, but that certainly hasn’t been my experience. Often these judgements come down to using sensible combinations of gear, and setting the turntable up properly. Anyway, I thought my tale would be of interest. BTW, the reviews on the V12 by Alan Sircom and Michael Fremer have echoed my impressions.

Hi Pallen, thank you for the great posting and sharing of your experiences.

My own observations very much resemble what you are describing. The V12 system soundstage depth, detail retrieval, steadiness and bass punch wrought by the high-mass platter are just exceptional. I have also read the same comments about the bass, but would equally argue that it is more likely a result of system synergy like choice of tonearm cable. I am currently running the AMG Reference phono cable, which definitely is worth the upgrade. In my system the Viella has pretty much a similar bass quality as my digital system.

What I also like about vinyl is that you do not have to run after every new gadget as e.g. in case of DACs, as the technology is already more matured. Hence the V12 was among the best 4-5 years ago as you say, and still is today.

Please report back when you have received your V12, I would be keen to hear your impressions. And congrats on the great purchase.

Welcome to the AMG V12 club, I think there are a number of us around here on the forum.


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[Matthias]

Thank you Sharkmouth!

[Kuoppis]

Update for the V12:




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[Ralphio]

I've got a V12 as well and love it. Any of you guys experience the the arm lift lever wanting to fall on it's own when the arm is docked?
That's about my only beef.

I would really like to hear the Brinkmann Balance 2-arm ... soon hopefully.

[joeinid]

Welcome to the forum, thank you for joining.

[Mike]

I've got a V12 as well and love it. Any of you guys experience the the arm lift lever wanting to fall on it's own when the arm is docked?
That's about my only beef.

I would really like to hear the Brinkmann Balance 2-arm ... soon hopefully.

Welcome!


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[Kuoppis]

I've got a V12 as well and love it. Any of you guys experience the the arm lift lever wanting to fall on it's own when the arm is docked?
That's about my only beef.

I would really like to hear the Brinkmann Balance 2-arm ... soon hopefully.

Hi Ralphio, great to have more people joining who enjoy the V12. There are quite few of us on the forum, as you probably saw in the thread. I’m really enjoying it, so far no lift issues.

Which arm do you currently have? Heard that even though the regular arm is great, the Turbo is yet another step-up. If I would want to try another manufacturer’s arm I would try the Thales Simplicity 2, but that is just because I like its mechanical sophistication. I have also heard that the Reed arms do sound great. But so far I like the AMG arm with the vertical springs a lot, adjustment is more precise and it is much more stable and than my previous Vpi unipivot. But if you get to try it please share what you heard.

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[tkcha]

Hi Kuoppis I am very happy for you. I did shoot out some turntables,carts with my Allnic H3000 phono stage, potential upgrade analog system 7 month ago so their was 4 turntables and 4 carts. Kronos Pro, The Sparta, AMG Viella V12,Vpi Avenger with Ortofon Winfeld, A90,Benz Micro SLR Gullwing ,Lyra Etna Sl were the line ups. Finale winner was easy Kronos pro with Etna SL but as you know just too much money so I go for second winner AMG Viella with Winfeld and HRS platform I pull the trigger on them. Now I have AMG about 6 month love so much but again Think about dual Tonearm and Lyra Etna SL also dedicate mono cart maybe Zero I am nuts or what? and I dont know how to put picture here please help!

[tkcha]

Hi Kuoppis, another Viella owner here sorry late for party. About 7 month ago I did shoot out some turntables,carts with my Allnic H3000 phono stage, potential upgrade analog system so their were 4 turntables and 4 carts. Kronos Pro, The Sparta, AMG Viella V12,VPI Avenger with Ortofon Winfeld, A90,Benz Micro SLR Gullwing ,Lyra Etna Sl were the line ups. Best combination was easy Kronos pro with Etna SL but as you know just too Dam Expensive so I go for second winner AMG Viella with Winfeld and HRS platform I pull the trigger on them so now I own them for 6 month now loved sound so much and 2 weeks ago I got Isoacustic Orea footers under Allnic H3000 phono stage and power supply, Allnic TR2000 25th Anniversary Integrated tube amp and HOLO Spring 3 R2R DAC,
Aurender N100H. The whole system doing miracle jog I am in heaven for first time in my life. I want put up some system pictures here but I cant do it so far ?

[joeinid]

Welcome to the forum, thank you for joining.

[Kuoppis]

Hi Kuoppis, another Viella owner here sorry late for party. About 7 month ago I did shoot out some turntables,carts with my Allnic H3000 phono stage, potential upgrade analog system so their were 4 turntables and 4 carts. Kronos Pro, The Sparta, AMG Viella V12,VPI Avenger with Ortofon Winfeld, A90,Benz Micro SLR Gullwing ,Lyra Etna Sl were the line ups. Best combination was easy Kronos pro with Etna SL but as you know just too Dam Expensive so I go for second winner AMG Viella with Winfeld and HRS platform I pull the trigger on them so now I own them for 6 month now loved sound so much and 2 weeks ago I got Isoacustic Orea footers under Allnic H3000 phono stage and power supply, Allnic TR2000 25th Anniversary Integrated tube amp and HOLO Spring 3 R2R DAC,
Aurender N100H. The whole system doing miracle jog I am in heaven for first time in my life. I want put up some system pictures here but I cant do it so far ?

Hi tkcha, that is an impressive test set, wow. And great pick, welcome to the club.

I was also thinking about the Winfield as I had the Cadenza Bronze before, but wanted also to try something new. And I always wanted to have a Benz, as I enjoy their sound signature.

Please post some pictures as soon as you can. I think you need to post five messages on the forum to release that function, in case I remember correctly.


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[tkcha]

Thank you for warm welcome. As I mention before also like sound Lyra Etna SL so much probably will upgrade dual tonearm and Miyajima Zero for mono cartridge. AMG V12 one statement TT for not so rich audiophile like us who cannt spend over 40k for TT only I prefer over some 30 to 40k turntable. Last few month I bought over 1200 LPs and listen everyday at least 6 hours.

[Kuoppis]

Thank you for warm welcome. As I mention before also like sound Lyra Etna SL so much probably will upgrade dual tonearm and Miyajima Zero for mono cartridge. AMG V12 one statement TT for not so rich audiophile like us who cannt spend over 40k for TT only I prefer over some 30 to 40k turntable. Last few month I bought over 1200 LPs and listen everyday at least 6 hours.

You might want to add a picture of that pile of LPs as well .

Way to go, you have some listening to do.


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[tkcha]

I was always claim myself more music lover collector than audiophile I have very big digital album collection also over 20k albums which include 3000 DSD in DSF and ISO file.4000 Hi-res PCM file and lot of XRCD, DCC, K2HD, SHM CD,MFSL,Japan Blue-spec CD,Audio fidelity CDs. I love Vinyl and Digital equally but of course vinyl sound better.

[Kuoppis]

Yes indeed, it is all about the music.


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[tkcha]

Also I was very impressed with AMG V12 with Benz Micro Gullwing SLR over Sparta with A90. It was close but still I liked former better. what your impression between AMG cartridge to Benz Micro Gullwing ? If you didnt like Teatro than why?

[Kuoppis]

Also I was very impressed with AMG V12 with Benz Micro Gullwing SLR over Sparta with A90. It was close but still I liked former better. what your impression between AMG cartridge to Benz Micro Gullwing ? If you didnt like Teatro than why?

I agree the V12 and Gullwing are a great combination. I’m at least happy with it.

The Teatro is a good fit with the Viella, a little warmish, great for Jazz and vocals. I think I prefer it to the Cadenza I had before.

The Gullwing is however yet another story. It is more transparent, much higher level of detail, better extension into both extremes. It’s truly a high end cart.


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[tkcha]

Wow now I can upload pictures but 10 posts are hard works man
My listening room is just temporary. Hopefully for only few month dimension wise 11.5/21/8 foot room not acousticlly treated at all but sound amazing another room 13.5/18/20 foot room will be Remodeling soon may be 2018 or next year!
picture of shoot out

my system pictures sorry for bad quality

[Kuoppis]

Very nice setups, congrats. A lots nice gear you have there.

The V12 seems to be in good company. How would you rate the impact of the HRS platform on overall sound?

Thanks for sharing.


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[tkcha]

You got to have any kind of vibration control for mass loaded unsuspended TT. HRS build special platform for AMG V12 which essential. For me IT was must have.

[Kuoppis]

You got to have any kind of vibration control for mass loaded unsuspended TT. HRS build special platform for AMG V12 which essential. For me IT was must have.

I’ve heard good things about it and am considering it as well.

In my system the Viella on Finite Elemente footers on a namesake rack, which function towards the same end.


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[Kuoppis]

Giving the spinner a new spin: I thought I would be done evaluating phono cables, but at Munch High End I learned that there is an AMG Turbo cable.

The AMG Reference is great, essentially a custom made Cardas Clear phono cable. Well, the Turbo is a custom version of the Cardas Clear Beyond.

Contrary to common belief and as Alan Sircom pointed out in his review, the Clear series cables already work very well out-of-the-box.

It arrived today and was added to the system right away. The Clear Beyond will obviously improve while burning in, but boy this cable is good!

It does everything the Clear does - but a bit better. I would not have thought that soundstage, details, dimensionality, clarity, tonality and dynamics can further improve. But they did.




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[tkcha]

Kuoppis, I am happay for you got AMG turbo phono cable . How much for new cable and its worth for price difference ?
I know its too early but after burn in let us know. And do you consider upgrade turbo arm later ?

[Kuoppis]

Kuoppis, I am happay for you got AMG turbo phono cable . How much for new cable and its worth for price difference ?
I know its too early but after burn in let us know. And do you consider upgrade turbo arm later ?

Hi tkcha, the AMG Turbo cable is about 30-40% more than the AMG Reference.

While I installed it just earlier today in my system, the difference is already significant. The Benz Gullwing cart I have is very transparent and requires a top cable, able to convey the dynamics, sound colors and reach on both frequency ends. Definitely worth the money for me.

I talked to Lorenzi in Munich (AMG owner and R&D head) about the Turbo arm. It is exactly the same 12” arm, but some of the adjustments screws are just more accessible. Hence no.


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[tkcha]

Thank you to let me know I am surprised turbo arm is just little easier to use only no sonic upgrade what so ever, too bad no for me either.