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March 19, 2018, 05:11 PM #1
What's with the trend in amp design?
I am seeing, or should I say, hearing, so many new amps that have voicing that is very tipped up in the upper range. Bright. Sibilant. Aggressive.
Now, I realize some people may actually like "bite", but most do not.
I do not understand this trend. Where did it come from? Is it coming from a particular reviewer who likely can't hear above 10Khz? Is it coming from customers? Where is it coming from?
I'm afraid all this does is lead back to the infamous Toole's Circle of Confusion.My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
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March 19, 2018, 05:43 PM #2
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
SS or across the board incl tubes? its probably why most of my gear is 'vintage' except for my digital source.
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March 19, 2018, 05:55 PM #3
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Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Mike,
Are you seeing this in any particular price category or market segment - or across the board?
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March 19, 2018, 06:06 PM #4
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
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March 19, 2018, 06:10 PM #5
What's with the trend in amp design?
More in redesigns. “We need a new version, let’s tip it up.” What’s guiding these decisions? I’m trying to figure out - is this through market research? Influence from reviewers? I mean, JV is constantly praising top end extension. Is it coming from there?
Am I alone in this? Maybe others aren’t hearing it.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkMy Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
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March 19, 2018, 06:15 PM #6
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
I've heard and owned a lot of amps. Some of the newest were certainly more "open" and "clean". I am not a fan. I can't stand the truth, or too forward a sound.
I always prefer sweeter and slightly rounded highs. A lot of the newer amps, to my ear, seem more aggressive.Fleetwood Deville by Oswald Mills Audio, Vienna Acoustics Haydn Jubilee, Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.
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March 19, 2018, 06:27 PM #7
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Maybe the amps are doing their job, and exposing something downstream.
Bud
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March 19, 2018, 08:16 PM #8
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
You might be correct. A more accurate interpretation of the music.
As I stated elsewhere swapping out my original Momentum's (part of the first 35 pair produced) for new M-400's has been great except they can be very unforgiving with a poor or hot recording. Everything is more accurate but that has changed what I hear in the highs so far.Jim
D'Agostino Momentum M-400's MxV’s & HD Pre-amp
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March 19, 2018, 08:50 PM #9
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Hi Jim,
I’m sure a little break in might help the situation. My amps are well broken in and while I agree the M400 amps are clear and open, they are the opposite of harsh or aggressive. A few of my previous amps were very uncomfortable. These D’Agostino amps are stunning, in my opinion. I’m a little sensitive to sibilants and my amps have none of it. They truly are the best amps I’ve ever owned .
Fleetwood Deville by Oswald Mills Audio, Vienna Acoustics Haydn Jubilee, Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.
Job INTegrated. Luxman L-595aSE
NAD C 658 streamer.
First Watt SIT-3, Job 250 Monos, NuForce STA200, AkitikA GT-102 amp, ASL Wave monos, Dennis Had 45 monos. Absolute Audio Labs PCF 25 amp (improved First Watt F7 super clone)
Topping D90, RME Audio ADI-2 DAC FS, ModWright Ultimate Sony XA-5400ES.
Burmester 948, McIntosh MCLK12, Kimber Kable, Siltech, Cardas, Avanti Audio cables.
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March 19, 2018, 08:54 PM #10
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March 19, 2018, 09:08 PM #11
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
It seems like most positive reviews say something like, "all of the resolve but without the harsh digital edge." Maybe this is the mark that every manufacturer is trying to hit, but very few actually do.
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March 19, 2018, 10:00 PM #12
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Well, if the designer of said amp can't hear above 10k, that might provide some clues. It might be going unnoticed where it needs to be noticed most.
That said, the specific mystery amp may be misbehaving in a particular setup, rather than across the board. Name some names ;-)
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March 19, 2018, 10:16 PM #13
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
I don’t want to pick out any particular amps, because there’s likely people here who own them. But Joe and I have talked extensively about particular amps in private. We are in agreement.
We have seen people buy amps and flip them very fast. Uh hum...
I’ve just noticed a real trend for treble extension, increased sibilance and “bite” across SOME new SS amps and I’m trying understand why. What on earth would drive such voicing changes?
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkMy Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
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March 19, 2018, 10:38 PM #14
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
I don't know Mike. Without scenarios and names it's hard to know a specific perspective for sure.
What I can say is there is just as much variety in sonic choice (pick your favorite attribute and insert it here) as there has been in recent years. I'm uncertain if this is a trend given the choices available.
System matching seems to be the case (or not) for some situations that gives the results we notice. At this day and age, I'd expect any amplifier to be free from egregious distortions. Voicing is one thing but I don't expect a quality amplifier to have distortion causing/related issues you mentioned.
Finally, there are so many variables with each individual system that it's hard to pin down when things are not functioning well -at least not in unfamiliar systems. The again, sometimes the new equipment just doesn't work in the system the way the new owner thought it would.
Dre
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March 19, 2018, 10:57 PM #15
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Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
I am one that doesn't particularly care for rounded sound, I do like extended highs and air, however, if the overall sound is out of balance, for example the highs draw my attention, that's a turn off and especially if the highs aren't smooth or have a bite. So maybe I'm even harder to please, LOL
Mike I'm sure hears more gear then mme to say, I have not noticed the trend. I'm confident in your assessment though. I personally was under the impression an industry trend in amps was to move to the warm side of neutral.
I'm also wondering how much, if any, is attributed to newer tweeter material. Not that brillium is bad, just as an example,, a lot of manufacturers are using it, I suppose as a selling point. I see more ribbons than ever before, more horns. It's all in application as to if it crosses a line. Even done well, the higher the resolution the better the upstream has to be.Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
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March 19, 2018, 11:03 PM #16
What's with the trend in amp design?
You raise some excellent points. I was speaking more of v1 to v2 for an amp. If 1.0 sounds great, why dramatically change the house sound in the 2.0? Just refine it a little, but don’t make a BMW into a Kia just for the sake of change.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkMy Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
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March 19, 2018, 11:13 PM #17
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March 20, 2018, 07:00 AM #18
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Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
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March 20, 2018, 09:06 AM #19
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
For my taste, splitting the difference between the Pass Labs .5 and .8 amps might be perfect. I think the new 611/1.25 McIntosh amps may have overshot the 452/601/1.2 amps too much.
I loved my CJ ART amps, but I have not heard the new 40th anniversary series. I read comments like “extended highs” on the new gear and it makes me a little nervous. I confess to wanting an ART 150 for the heck of it, but I’d absolutely need a demo before buying.Last edited by joeinid; March 20, 2018 at 09:16 AM.
Fleetwood Deville by Oswald Mills Audio, Vienna Acoustics Haydn Jubilee, Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.
Job INTegrated. Luxman L-595aSE
NAD C 658 streamer.
First Watt SIT-3, Job 250 Monos, NuForce STA200, AkitikA GT-102 amp, ASL Wave monos, Dennis Had 45 monos. Absolute Audio Labs PCF 25 amp (improved First Watt F7 super clone)
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March 20, 2018, 09:27 AM #20
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Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Pass has already done this with the XS series. And they are.
It would be interesting to find out which speakers and cables were used for voicing these overly bright sounding amps. Nowadays it seems there's a bigger difference than ever between those that are revealing and those that are "rounded".Howard
Pass Labs XS 300's, XS Pre | Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC Reference Series 3, Alpha USB | Aurender W20SE, ACS10 | Magico S7's with MPOD's, QSub 15 x 2 | Shunyata Denali 2000T x 2 with Sigma HC | Audience aR6-TS Incoming... Shunyata Everest 8000 w/ Omega XC | MIT Heritage and Oracle Interconnects and speaker cables | Critical Mass Maxxum rack | Resolution Acoustics custom room treatments
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March 20, 2018, 09:29 AM #21
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Last edited by joeinid; March 20, 2018 at 09:32 AM.
Fleetwood Deville by Oswald Mills Audio, Vienna Acoustics Haydn Jubilee, Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.
Job INTegrated. Luxman L-595aSE
NAD C 658 streamer.
First Watt SIT-3, Job 250 Monos, NuForce STA200, AkitikA GT-102 amp, ASL Wave monos, Dennis Had 45 monos. Absolute Audio Labs PCF 25 amp (improved First Watt F7 super clone)
Topping D90, RME Audio ADI-2 DAC FS, ModWright Ultimate Sony XA-5400ES.
Burmester 948, McIntosh MCLK12, Kimber Kable, Siltech, Cardas, Avanti Audio cables.
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March 20, 2018, 10:35 AM #22
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Uh, aren't you talking about Joe? Joe is the grand pooh bah of flipping gear. Seriously, you aren't providing enough information to put things into context. You don't want to name names and we have no idea of what kind of systems these offensive amps are in and whether they are all digital based. And why would this trend be just amplifier related? If a company is making an amp that is intentionally bright, why wouldn't their preamps do the same thing?
Digital brought us the loudness wars that served to kill off any semblance of dynamic range in order to make every recording try and stand out by shouting louder than the last recording you just heard. Maybe now we are in a new phase called the brightness wars.Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
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March 20, 2018, 11:27 AM #23
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Agree Mark. More data is needed. Based on what Mike noted, one could think that based on the gear he carries, he could be seeing a change in all of this products towards more of a "Bright. Sibilant, Aggressive" sound as Mike noted..
If a manufacturer changes their design scheme, one would think those improved methods of a new version would carry on down to their pre-amps, integrated amps and dacs if one made dacs not just amps.2chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)
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March 20, 2018, 12:41 PM #24
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
When I replaced my McIntosh MC501 mono block amplifiers with a pair of McIntosh MC601's I noticed a more prominent level of midrange energy that moved the presentation forward in the soundstage, plus a new quickness to dynamic peaks that made the amplifiers seem quicker. These adjustments were not so dramatic as to be objectionable but it definitely presented a shift in the McIntosh house sound. By comparison the MC601's made the MC501's sound slightly darker. This new house sound was also introduced in the McIntosh MC452 stereo power amplifier, and the MC2301 tube mono block power amplifiers. Although I have not auditioned the newest McIntosh MC1.25KW mono block power amplifiers, I imagine this same voicing is present in that amplifier when compared to the older MC1.2KW amplifier.
It makes sense for a manufacturer to eventually make some sonic adjustments to their house sound when new products are introduced in an effort to create the impression of a fresh direction, something that would encourage owners of similar components to abandon older amplifiers for the newest amplifiers. It is a fine line for amplifier designers to tread when altering a revered house sound that is appreciated by faithful followers. In the case of McIntosh's newest amplifiers, the slight sonic shift was in the right direction without loosing the rich timbrel accuracy that is the common thread woven through decades of their products. An important factor in my mind is that a manufacture does not bring about a steady stream of new products, one right after the other, with each one touting a voicing adjustment. Eventually these audio components drift into an area where consumers are no longer confident amplifiers they purchase today will not be perceived as obsolete in short order.
I have no idea whether audio manufacturers intents are to exaggerate any part of the audio frequency range, but I do know that ultra analytical presentations often emphasize a more starkly chiseled upper midrange. When the source material is well mixed and mastered this can be fabulous, but it can quickly turn south for a listener's ears when less than stellar recordings are being reproduced. It is a narrow path we follow when building a high-end system, and as always our individual perception of what sounds good determines the products we embrace.Dan
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March 20, 2018, 01:56 PM #25
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Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
While I agree with others that there are amps that are on the bright side, this is a good point. I think that was also lost in some of the endless analog vs. digital discussions of yesteryear. While digital indeed can sound artificially bright, I suspect in many cases it simply exposed flaws in the system/room (room reflections!) that were not exposed by the more 'forgiving' vinyl.
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March 20, 2018, 02:01 PM #26
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
I'm not referring to the room, the source or anything else but the amps. Voicing, I feel, with some manufacturers is becoming too much on the lean/bright side. I feel they are driving this change for fear of being called "rolled off" by a reviewer.
I'm not going to name names. If someone is curious, you can PM me or Joe. But we both feel there is a fundamental shift with SOME manufacturers towards a more "forward" presentation and we are not fans, others may love it. My friend Jerry says "give me bite! lots of bite!" Not me. Not Joe.My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
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March 20, 2018, 02:04 PM #27
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Dan,
I would love to get your honest opinion of the new MC1.25 amps. Hopefully someday you will be able the get a good audition of them in a familiar system. I have no problem with progress, advancement and improvements. Those amps in particular, not having heard the MC611, have lost some of what I feel endears music lovers to the brand.Fleetwood Deville by Oswald Mills Audio, Vienna Acoustics Haydn Jubilee, Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.
Job INTegrated. Luxman L-595aSE
NAD C 658 streamer.
First Watt SIT-3, Job 250 Monos, NuForce STA200, AkitikA GT-102 amp, ASL Wave monos, Dennis Had 45 monos. Absolute Audio Labs PCF 25 amp (improved First Watt F7 super clone)
Topping D90, RME Audio ADI-2 DAC FS, ModWright Ultimate Sony XA-5400ES.
Burmester 948, McIntosh MCLK12, Kimber Kable, Siltech, Cardas, Avanti Audio cables.
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March 20, 2018, 02:06 PM #28
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Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
I understood that, but in a system it is all about context. A system/room that has some inherent flaws towards the higher frequencies may benefit from an amp that 'tones down' things a bit, while a more linear amp may expose the flaws ruthlessly. That amp may then be perceived to be on the 'bright' side, when really, it is not. This does not take away the fact that there truly are too bright sounding amps.
Of course, compensating one coloration with another only leads to loss of resolution down the road. Better to have everything behave more neutrally throughout the chain for maximal retrieval of musical information.
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March 20, 2018, 02:09 PM #29
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
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March 20, 2018, 02:19 PM #30
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Fleetwood Deville by Oswald Mills Audio, Vienna Acoustics Haydn Jubilee, Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.
Job INTegrated. Luxman L-595aSE
NAD C 658 streamer.
First Watt SIT-3, Job 250 Monos, NuForce STA200, AkitikA GT-102 amp, ASL Wave monos, Dennis Had 45 monos. Absolute Audio Labs PCF 25 amp (improved First Watt F7 super clone)
Topping D90, RME Audio ADI-2 DAC FS, ModWright Ultimate Sony XA-5400ES.
Burmester 948, McIntosh MCLK12, Kimber Kable, Siltech, Cardas, Avanti Audio cables.
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March 20, 2018, 02:20 PM #31
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
In a perfectly treated room, you put v1 of AMP X into the system and it sounds superb. You remove it, put in v2 of AMP X and you get bright, thin, etc.
That to me, is the wrong direction for voicing.
I think MEP is right, we are in some sort of weird brightness war making them even more unforgiving with bad recordings and even worse when put into systems with bad rooms, bad power and more.My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
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March 20, 2018, 02:21 PM #32
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Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Wonder if its bright amps, or just the continuation of bright speakers with unobtanium metal tweeters and such.
Brinkmann Bardo w/ EMT HSD-006 cart, MSB Reference DAC --> Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> Fyne Audio F1-12
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March 20, 2018, 02:24 PM #33
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
https://suncoastaudio.com/
Phone: 941-932-0282
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/
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March 20, 2018, 02:31 PM #34
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Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Joe- were the Ayre Twenty series amps bright to your ears? how do they compare with your current Dags in the treble.
Brinkmann Bardo w/ EMT HSD-006 cart, MSB Reference DAC --> Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> Fyne Audio F1-12
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March 20, 2018, 02:34 PM #35
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Joe.......I remember reading a previous comment by you where you expressed a less than enthusiastic response to the sound of the newest McIntosh MC1.25KW amplifiers. I was surprised to see that comment and thought perhaps the amplifiers did not have enough hours on them to settle into a permanent voice. Then again it could be that design changes in the amplifier circuits may have tilted the sound in a direction that simply did not please you. If and when I have the opportunity to audition the newest 1.25KW amplifiers, you can be certain I will post my impressions.Dan
STUDIO - McIntosh C1000C/P, MC2301 (2), MR88, Aurender N10, Esoteric K-01X, Shunyata Sigma spdif digital coax, Sonos Connect, Stillpoints Ultra SS & Ultra Mini, PurePower 2000, Furutech Flux 50, Michell Gyro SE, Michell HR Power Supply, SME 309, Ortofon Cadenza Black, Sonus faber Amati Anniversario
LIVING ROOM - McIntosh C2300, MC75 (2), MR85, Magnum Dynalab 205 Signal Sleuth, Sonos Connect, Simaudio MOON Neo 260D-T, Schiit Audio Yggdrasil, Aurender N100H, Shunyata Sigma USB cable, Sony DAT 60ES, Nakamichi BX-300, Micro Seiki DD40 w/m505A tonearm, Ortofon Cadenza Blue, PS Audio P10, Furutech Flux 50, Stillpoints Ultra Mini, PMC EB1i, JL Audio f113
VINTAGE - McIntosh 4300V, McIntosh MA230, Tandberg 3011A tuner, Olive 04HD, JBL 4312A
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March 20, 2018, 02:46 PM #36
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
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March 20, 2018, 02:46 PM #37
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Keith,
The Ayre MXR20 (and KXR20 - still wish I had that one), have so much in common with the D’Agostino amps. The Ayre amps might be the tiniest bit smoother on top, but the D’Agostino amps have a little thicker tone and a little more meat on the bone. I could live with either, but ultimately I prefer my D’Agostino amps. NONE of the Ayre gear was ever bright, harsh or aggressive. Ayre is simply wonderful. They were the most perfect in that department. All this is in the context of solid state. CJ is my perfect tube solution. And it’s mostly true that Ayre is the best of tubes and solid state like Charlie used to say. Thicken up the Ayre and it’s a world beater, but they don’t like difficult speaker loads. The D’Agostinos handle difficult speakers easily.
Fleetwood Deville by Oswald Mills Audio, Vienna Acoustics Haydn Jubilee, Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.
Job INTegrated. Luxman L-595aSE
NAD C 658 streamer.
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Topping D90, RME Audio ADI-2 DAC FS, ModWright Ultimate Sony XA-5400ES.
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March 20, 2018, 02:47 PM #38
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
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March 20, 2018, 02:51 PM #39
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Unless you have some inside information from a company that told you they are voicing their amps around an old, half deaf reviewer so he would like them, I'm not buying the reviewer theory. What company in their right mind would make everyone suffer with a bright product only to make a reviewer happy? It doesn't make sense to me.
Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
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March 20, 2018, 02:55 PM #40
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
I may have been the first to voice that opinion, but I can name 4 or 5 friends here (but I won’t) who’ve come around and agreed that the treble on the Ref 6 is a little aggressive. Especially compared to the Ref 10 and GSPre to name two.
I don’t remember the full system context but we’ve heard it and it’s not my cup of tea. This is my opinion, and of several friends that I know. I’m not claiming that I have the best hearing, but if something is aggressive or forward, it drives me nuts. My TAD CR-1 drove me nuts, I’m sorry to say and the Musical Fidelity Nuvista 800 was another piece that I could not live with either.
Fleetwood Deville by Oswald Mills Audio, Vienna Acoustics Haydn Jubilee, Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.
Job INTegrated. Luxman L-595aSE
NAD C 658 streamer.
First Watt SIT-3, Job 250 Monos, NuForce STA200, AkitikA GT-102 amp, ASL Wave monos, Dennis Had 45 monos. Absolute Audio Labs PCF 25 amp (improved First Watt F7 super clone)
Topping D90, RME Audio ADI-2 DAC FS, ModWright Ultimate Sony XA-5400ES.
Burmester 948, McIntosh MCLK12, Kimber Kable, Siltech, Cardas, Avanti Audio cables.
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March 20, 2018, 02:59 PM #41
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Last edited by joeinid; March 20, 2018 at 03:02 PM.
Fleetwood Deville by Oswald Mills Audio, Vienna Acoustics Haydn Jubilee, Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.
Job INTegrated. Luxman L-595aSE
NAD C 658 streamer.
First Watt SIT-3, Job 250 Monos, NuForce STA200, AkitikA GT-102 amp, ASL Wave monos, Dennis Had 45 monos. Absolute Audio Labs PCF 25 amp (improved First Watt F7 super clone)
Topping D90, RME Audio ADI-2 DAC FS, ModWright Ultimate Sony XA-5400ES.
Burmester 948, McIntosh MCLK12, Kimber Kable, Siltech, Cardas, Avanti Audio cables.
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March 20, 2018, 03:04 PM #42
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Joe-Didn't you rave about the TAD CR-1s up to the point where you sold them? Weren't your latest pair of McIntosh amps you kept for 34 days "destination amps" and you said good things about them until they headed down the road to their new owner? So now we have you and four or five of your friends who think the Ref 6 was bright. Were these people who own the Ref 6 or people who stopped by your place and heard it in your system?
Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
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March 20, 2018, 03:21 PM #43
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
They had the Ref 6 in their own system and ultimately came to the same conclusion. I never prompted them in any way.
Under certain conditions, the previous gear had some great qualities. Sure I was a little over the top and that was certainly my fault but at the time those posts were written, that’s how I felt. I guess I get excited and and wanted to post about it. It won’t happen again. I’ll be more reserved until the dust settles. Can you forgive me? It’s just my opinion of snapshots in time. I’m not a professional like you. I should know better.Last edited by joeinid; March 20, 2018 at 04:36 PM.
Fleetwood Deville by Oswald Mills Audio, Vienna Acoustics Haydn Jubilee, Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.
Job INTegrated. Luxman L-595aSE
NAD C 658 streamer.
First Watt SIT-3, Job 250 Monos, NuForce STA200, AkitikA GT-102 amp, ASL Wave monos, Dennis Had 45 monos. Absolute Audio Labs PCF 25 amp (improved First Watt F7 super clone)
Topping D90, RME Audio ADI-2 DAC FS, ModWright Ultimate Sony XA-5400ES.
Burmester 948, McIntosh MCLK12, Kimber Kable, Siltech, Cardas, Avanti Audio cables.
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March 20, 2018, 03:51 PM #44
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
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Phone: 941-932-0282
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/
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March 20, 2018, 04:00 PM #45
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Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Brinkmann Bardo w/ EMT HSD-006 cart, MSB Reference DAC --> Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> Fyne Audio F1-12
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March 20, 2018, 04:35 PM #46
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Fleetwood Deville by Oswald Mills Audio, Vienna Acoustics Haydn Jubilee, Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.
Job INTegrated. Luxman L-595aSE
NAD C 658 streamer.
First Watt SIT-3, Job 250 Monos, NuForce STA200, AkitikA GT-102 amp, ASL Wave monos, Dennis Had 45 monos. Absolute Audio Labs PCF 25 amp (improved First Watt F7 super clone)
Topping D90, RME Audio ADI-2 DAC FS, ModWright Ultimate Sony XA-5400ES.
Burmester 948, McIntosh MCLK12, Kimber Kable, Siltech, Cardas, Avanti Audio cables.
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March 20, 2018, 04:47 PM #47
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Might these new amp tonalities, be because that speaker technology - especially in the tweeters (highs) has improved over the last 20 years.
Where an amp manufacturer was listening to his amp into a sota speaker 20 years ago, he thought it sounded too bright and harsh, but now when he listens to his amp with today's sota speaker that has less harsh tweeters so he adds a little bit to his amps so he is hearing the same end result?Jock
If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters.
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House: Naim ND555/2PS, Naim 552, Naim 500, Studer A80/Doshi V3, Magico M2s, 2 Magico Q-Sub 15s, Lumina IC/SC, Shunyata Everest and Omega PCs.
Workshop: Naim ND555/2 PS, VAC Master Pre, VAC Sig 200iQ, Border Patrol pre/power, Avant Garde Duo Mezzo XD, 2 Magico Q-Sub 15s, Shunyata IC/SC, Shunyata Typhon QR/Triton V3/Sigma PCs.
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March 20, 2018, 04:49 PM #48
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Hi Dan,
What prompted me was this comment ....
https://www.audioaficionado.org/show...9&postcount=46
"I did have an opportunity to listen to a pair of MC1.25KW’s w/ Stradivari’s. They are clearly voiced differently, and it isn’t due to the use of Thermal Trak Output Transistors.
My MC2KW’s have Thermal Trak Output Transistors, and still sound pleasing with the McIntosh “house sound”.
IMHO, there were other changes made that resulted in the 1.25K’s sounding on the bright, almost shrill side. My friend, who’s system I heard these with decided these Amps were not for him, and ultimately sold them. He now has MC2301’s and couldn’t be more pleased. "
Last edited by joeinid; March 20, 2018 at 04:51 PM.
Fleetwood Deville by Oswald Mills Audio, Vienna Acoustics Haydn Jubilee, Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.
Job INTegrated. Luxman L-595aSE
NAD C 658 streamer.
First Watt SIT-3, Job 250 Monos, NuForce STA200, AkitikA GT-102 amp, ASL Wave monos, Dennis Had 45 monos. Absolute Audio Labs PCF 25 amp (improved First Watt F7 super clone)
Topping D90, RME Audio ADI-2 DAC FS, ModWright Ultimate Sony XA-5400ES.
Burmester 948, McIntosh MCLK12, Kimber Kable, Siltech, Cardas, Avanti Audio cables.
-
March 20, 2018, 05:18 PM #49
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
https://suncoastaudio.com/
Phone: 941-932-0282
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/
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March 20, 2018, 05:20 PM #50
Re: What's with the trend in amp design?
Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
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