the preamp/amp question

[drabbish]

I was wondering everyones opinion on matching vs mixing the preamp/amp with what experience everyone has had. Does it require you to match up a amp with the company preamp or vise versa to get the most out of one and the other? To make the questions simple we can stick to solid state. Also, I am not trying to discuss voltage match up or pin polarity issues, just overall getting the most out of the product.

Take Joe's recent purchase the Dan m400's. they were definitely intriguing for me but then a think will it match the burmester 088 or would I need to get the matching preamp one day to really see what the amps really should sound like.

[joeinid]

I personally (and from my own experience) don't feel it's absolutely necessary to have the same company preamp and amp to have ultimate synergy. Sure matching can be easy. But some preamps have their own sound/flavor and amplifying that can bring nirvana.

[audio.bill]

I agree with Joe that it's not generally required to match a company's pre and power amps, and that with some combinations you can achieve excellent results with well matched amplification across manufacturers. Although a mismatch can occur if you don't have the opportunity to try various combinations, and by staying with one brand's electronics you can purchase a combination with more confidence in a synergistic outcome.

[pdub]

This is exactly where a knowledgeable dealer really earns your business. I never would have thought about combining a Soulution 520 pre/Hegel H30 amp/Revel Salon2 system without encouragement from an experienced dealer. To my ears, in my large 17x37' room the mix was superior to the much-more-expensive Soulution monos, which were better-suited to the watt-greedy Revels only in a more modestly sized 14x19' room.
Parker

[Mr Peabody]

I pretty much am in agreement with Audio Bill. To get the synergy and "house sound" the designer was going for I like same brand pre/power. Secondly, I would at least to same topology, for example, differentially balanced with same, I personally wouldn't mixed single ended with true balanced. I personally would have thought D'Agostino and Mac would be a poor match, them not being same sonic signature or character. So my 3rd stage is at least trying to keep with same character, like warm with warm, etc.

With that being said there are always those exceptions. And, that's my biasess, many mix and seem to be happy. It can be fun as well.

[sharkmouth]

I recently had an Aries Cerat preamp in my Soulution system & I was stunned.

[Kuoppis]

Also agree with the previous statements. There can be a house-sound synergy, but that does not always equal to better sound. I am currently combining an Ayre pre with a Pass power amp to great results. Had an Ayre/ Ayre combination before which was also fine.

It is also quite popular to combine a tube pre with a SS power amp to get the best of both worlds. The only thing is that bias between pre and power amps should match, and as Mr Peabody indicates, fully balanced design power amps sound best when combined with fully balanced pre amps.


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[UltraFast69]

Full agreement, a buddy of mine runs the ARC 6 with his Esoteric amps and has no issue with sound, but you really need to see how it sounds in your entire system with cables, power and the room itself to not go sideways. For me I’m conservative matching the pre and amps.


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[Mikado463]

Some of you have drifted from the Op's request to keep this 'all SS' and inject tubes into the mix (Ok in my book) yet no one has yet to mention arguably the single most 'technical concern' when mixing different manufactures pieces ....... impedance matching.

With that the general accepted 'common' is that the input impedance of the amp should be 10 or more times greater than the output impedance of the preamp. This figure is usually at the frequency where the preamp output impedance is at it's highest.

If the above is to be of a concern it's more often than not found in the tube pre to SS amp scenario

[Alpinist]

I personally (and from my own experience) don't feel it's absolutely necessary to have the same company preamp and amp to have ultimate synergy. Sure matching can be easy. But some preamps have their own sound/flavor and amplifying that can bring nirvana.

Hi Joe,

Too bad you sold the Ayre KXR Twenty preamp. I was reading that someone tried both and actually preferred the KXR Twenty preamp to the Momentum preamp with the M400 monoblocks. He said it was a synergistic combo. The KXR Twenty is a terrific preamp!

Best,
Ken

[joeinid]

Sorry to drift a little off topic.

While I had and loved the KXR-20 and MXR-20 combo, I tried each individually with other amp and preamp combinations. I have to be honest and say that while the KXR-20 is spectacular in its own right, I would have preferred a fuller and more meaty tone. Even the Ayre combo was just a bit too thin for my taste but still amazing. Ayre has probably the best treble and mids in that they are smooth and a bit sweet with absolutely zero harshness and sibilants. Ayre is a paragon in that way, but give me that smooth and sweet treble with a thicker tone and you have a world beater on your hands. It may be out there but I have not found it. You all can think I am crazy but I've had my time with the KXR-20 and am not looking back.

Hi Joe,

Too bad you sold the Ayre KXR Twenty preamp. I was reading that someone tried both and actually preferred the KXR Twenty preamp to the Momentum preamp with the M400 monoblocks. He said it was a synergistic combo. The KXR Twenty is a terrific preamp!

Best,
Ken

[Kuoppis]

I like your audio gear choices Joe, let me know when you find the thing that does what the KX-R does with a bit of added warmth and I’m right behind you.


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[joeinid]

Thanks!!!

I like, actually love, a lot of gear. My ears are my own and I know what I like. I could have, no wait - should have stopped , long ago but I love to play with shiny new toys.

I can not wait to try my Luxman preamp with the D'Ag M400 amps.

I like your audio gear choices Joe, let me know when you find the thing that does what the KX-R does with a bit of added warmth and I’m right behind you.


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[Kuoppis]

I can not wait to try my Luxman preamp with the D'Ag M400 amps.

I’m sure that is an incredible pairing, looking forward to your impressions.


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[Mr Peabody]

Joe, reading your taste in sound, what drew you to the 400's? I've heard D'Agostino several times and "meaty" is not an adjective I'd ever come up with. Which of your speakers do you find them sounding their best with? I bet they'd slam with the 4367's.

I really hope to hear Ayre and Bryston this year. I heard a great Bryston set up but didn't get much time in the room.?

[Jack]

Joe

Based on Doug's review in Soundstage the C900u paired with the Dag's should be something else. Curious also how the "lowly" LTA stacks up in that company.

[joeinid]

I had an original D'Ag S200 stereo amp and absolutely believe that had a thicker tone to it. Maybe denser is a better term for what I remember hearing. Granted, I have not heard these M400s yet but based on what Jock and others have told me in the past, I am confident in my choice.

Ayre will be SUPERB with the 4367. I suspect the M400s will be awesome as well. I have some experimenting to do once the amps arrive.

One of my all time favorite, bar none, combos was my CJ GAT and ART monos on my Studio2. That just did me in, no sleep kind of sound. Turning off that combo every night was torture, absolute torture. One more song turned into daylight streaming through the windows. I don't know why or how, but the CJ/Studio2 combo was even better to my ear than with my beloved Strads. Tweeter related perhaps? Sure the Strads had a bigger and more room filling presentation but something about the Studio2/CJ combo was sublime. I may go back there someday, but right now, hopefully the Revel/Harmon/D'Ag combos will do the trick.

Joe, reading your taste in sound, what drew you to the 400's? I've heard D'Agostino several times and "meaty" is not an adjective I'd ever come up with. Which of your speakers do you find them sounding their best with? I bet they'd slam with the 4367's.

I really hope to hear Ayre and Bryston this year. I heard a great Bryston set up but didn't get much time in the room.?

[joeinid]

Jack,

I think both will be great. My gut tells me that the Luxman C900u and D'Ags will be superb. I love that preamp too. I think I love it more than the Ayre for my taste.

The guy who purchased my ARTsa amp a while ago just got the BHK Signature preamp to replace his CJ ET3se and is in heaven now. Absolutely loves that combo. I love the BHK preamp as well. Sure it's a tiny bit quirky but that preamp does not get the respect it deserves.

Joe

Based on Doug's review in Soundstage the C900u paired with the Dag's should be something else. Curious also how the "lowly" LTA stacks up in that company.

[Jack]

Glad he likes the BHK and I guess the "little" SE quirk doesn't bother him because if it doesn't the sound should be superb. It will be interesting though to see how the "little guy preamp" stacks up with the "big boys."

[drabbish]

I think at times when your searching for "that sound" and you have many different components such as dac, preamp, amp, speakers, cables; how are you suppose to figure out which one is preventing "that sound" form happening? I have stopped myself from changing my burmester combo bc I find nothing wrong with it and I like the ignorance of not knowing otherwise. the main part that I did listen to before purchase were speakers. I tried all the major ones to hear their house sound before I decided on magico.

[joeinid]

That is a great question. I do change gear around a lot but also listen to what is setup a lot. It takes a while to learn what something is doing, but you are right, sometimes I (we) make an assumption on what we think something sounds like and have been all wrong. I try to be patient and just listen. The better gear rises to the top naturally.

There are no absolutes. "Ignorance is bliss" and I try and shut out a lot of the noise from everywhere else. What my head wants and what my heart wants are usually two separate things. Trying to reconcile the two is difficult.

I think at times when your searching for "that sound" and you have many different components such as dac, preamp, amp, speakers, cables; how are you suppose to figure out which one is preventing "that sound" form happening? I have stopped myself from changing my burmester combo bc I find nothing wrong with it and I like the ignorance of not knowing otherwise. the main part that I did listen to before purchase were speakers. I tried all the major ones to hear their house sound before I decided on magico.

[Alpinist]

Sorry to drift a little off topic.

While I had and loved the KXR-20 and MXR-20 combo, I tried each individually with other amp and preamp combinations. I have to be honest and say that while the KXR-20 is spectacular in its own right, I would have preferred a fuller and more meaty tone. Even the Ayre combo was just a bit too thin for my taste but still amazing. Ayre has probably the best treble and mids in that they are smooth and a bit sweet with absolutely zero harshness and sibilants. Ayre is a paragon in that way, but give me that smooth and sweet treble with a thicker tone and you have a world beater on your hands. It may be out there but I have not found it. You all can think I am crazy but I've had my time with the KXR-20 and am not looking back.

Hi Joe,

I apologize for taking the thread a bit off topic. I am happy to read that you tried the KXR Twenty with other amp combinations before you sold it. If it was sounding on the thin side in your system then you made the right decision. I hope the Luxman preamp gives you the meatier sound you desire. If not, there’s always the option to save up for the Momentum preamp. I think getting the M400’s will be huge step forward with your system, once you find the appropriate matching preamp.

All the best,
Ken

[joeinid]

Thank you Ken, absolutely no worries. I don’t mean to knock the KXR20. It really is a superb preamp. I guess I’m a little spoiled. I would be surprised if my Luxman wasn’t a great match with the D’Agostino amps. I had the first Momentum preamp and I think Jock did too. We both preferred the KXR20 over it but it was great too. There’s a chance I might do tubes on the M400s. First with my little MZ2 then something else. I’d love to try a GSPre.