Music Server - Laptop-NAS Cabling

[brad225]

Relax this is not a which is better cable question. I think.

I have a Cat 7 cable running from my Ethernet connection in my music room to a network switch. from there a Cat 7 runs to my laptop and a second from the switch to my NAS.

The cables are directional and clearly marked with an arrow. I realize this is usually done for grounding reasons on my interconnects. I installed them directionally as though I was bringing music from the NAS - Network Switch - Laptop - DAC - Preamp.

Does using directional cables have a negative affect on a download coming from the internet and using the cables in the opposite direction into the Network Switch - Laptop - Network Switch - NAS?


Thanks

[nicoff]

https://arstechnica.com/staff/2015/0...s-sense/?amp=1

[brad225]

Thanks for your insults. If I wanted those I would have asked someone I respect. It would at least mean something to me.

Who is Lee Hutchinson anyway?

[octadyndude]

Brad225 I can't answer your question but when ever a cable question is asked you will always get remarks from the wire is just wire folks. Either you hear a difference or you don't. Personally I hear differences.

[CPP]

My logic regarding cables, try it for yourself and forget anything anyone else tells you. If you hear a difference enjoy it, if you don't no harm no foul. My recommendation unless you have a local vendor wishing to loan you cables is to use The Cable Company. They have a great loaner program. https://www.thecableco.com/

[nonesup]

Brad225 I can't answer your question but when ever a cable question is asked you will always get remarks from the wire is just wire folks. Either you hear a difference or you don't. Personally I hear differences.

+1

[brad225]

octadyndude & CPP, thanks for your responses. I did purchase them from a returnable source though I have purchased from The Cable Co. Very nice people to work with.

For what worth there was a very noticeable change in the sound. My initial feeling is that it is an clear improvement. I will need to spend more time listening to be sure it is not just different so it is perceived as better issue. Could I have spent less, possibly.

That said I went from generic $10 Amazon Cat 7 cables to well shielded cable with high quality connectors on them. If it turns out it is not really better back/resell they go. That has been my approach with all of the equipment I have owned.


I will never understand people that want to start an argument on any subject. If you think I am wasting my money, fine, it's my money.

If I ask for you opinion on a subject I'm a free target.

[nonesup]

Hi Brad.
In my system I have AQ Diamond and compared to the AQ Cinnamon that I also have, they are such a difference, so, so obvious ...
However, as I am a "stupid audiophile" I am waiting, to prove it, a Göebel Ethernet cable, because if there is one thing that I like in life is...... to throw away my money.

[nicoff]

.....
Who is Lee Hutchinson anyway?

https://arstechnica.com/author/lee-hutchinson/

You asked a question and you got a technical answer on the subject written by the Senior Technology Editor of a well-known technology-oriented site. Obviously, you did not like that answer.

You have also received answers from others on this forum that support a subjective view on Ethernet cables.

However, the ONLY answer that matters is yours! It is simple: Just flip the cable and listen. Only YOU can tell what sounds better to YOU. If you can consistently choose one direction over the other even better. Don't worry about what anybody else thinks!

[brad225]

Sorry Jac-off that was not the answer to my question. I asked if technically the digital flow was the same in both directions with directional cables.

Oh, sorry if I got your name wrong.

By coincidence, I did purchase AQ Vodka.

[barrows]

I would not really recommend CAT 7. Usually CAT 7 cables are shielded, with the shields terminated to the (metal) Ethernet plugs at each end. This means the shield makes a ground connection between everything which is not broken by the Ethernet transformer. One of the advantages of Ethernet audio transmission is that it provides isolation (there is a transformer in the Ethernet jacks) between devices, and the grounded shield and metal Ethernet plugs defeat this isolation.
Additionally, eBay and amazon are not reliable sources for purchasing cabling, there are many chinese cable manufacturers who sell there, and their cables often do not meet spec.
At Sonore, we recommend Blue Jeans Cable CAT 6A for use with our products. It is affordable, reliable, and high performance, and they measure every cable after termination to insure it meets specification.

[Kingrex]

I would not really recommend CAT 7. Usually CAT 7 cables are shielded, with the shields terminated to the (metal) Ethernet plugs at each end. This means the shield makes a ground connection between everything which is not broken by the Ethernet transformer. One of the advantages of Ethernet audio transmission is that it provides isolation (there is a transformer in the Ethernet jacks) between devices, and the grounded shield and metal Ethernet plugs defeat this isolation.
Additionally, eBay and amazon are not reliable sources for purchasing cabling, there are many chinese cable manufacturers who sell there, and their cables often do not meet spec.
At Sonore, we recommend Blue Jeans Cable CAT 6A for use with our products. It is affordable, reliable, and high performance, and they measure every cable after termination to insure it meets specification.

I was going to respond the cable is terminated on one end only as the shield needs a place to drain. If it was terminated on both ends, you are correct in it would now make a non isolated connection between 2 devices that noise and voltage differential could ride on. I am no expert, just throwing out thoughts now. If it is terminated on one end only and isolation between devices is maintained, where is the shield draining too? And, if it is somehow draining to the power cord, is the system grounding for the 110 volt designed to take that noise somewhere or just put it back into the power grid in your panel.

I don't have answers to this, but I am working with another person to build a 110 volt supply from your panel to all your gear taking into account a way to drain shield noise away from the electrical source.

I also believe quality of conductor material, insulation and geometry all affect the passage of not only signal but also work to ballance electrical voltage flow. Per voltage flow, I mean keeping the voltage between the 2 or 3 conductors exactly equal so no spurious. 03 volts or so flow back through the ground causing ground loops and injected noise. A good cable should pass electricity as well as signal and not create ground loops. That may be what you are getting from a quality cable.

[barrows]

1. CAT 7 cables have the shield terminated to the connectors at both ends, so they defeat the isolation usually inherent in Ethernet connections. At least every one I have ever measured is terminated this way.
2. CAT 6A cables use a fully floating shield. Floating shields do provide shielding, without being grounded, but only at very high frequencies. Grounded shields are better for lower frequencies. But the concept of a grounded shield drawing away noise to (somewhere) is a little bit of a myth: yes this happens at some frequencies, but it is limited.
Anyway, unless you are going to terminate your own Ethernet cables in a custom way, you are not going to get Ethernet cables with a shield terminated at only one end. Has anyone tested, say Audioquest cables for this?
3. Additionally: given that Ethernet is fully differential signaling, a shield will not offer any real advantages to the signal anyway.
4. Again, Sonore's best recommendation is the high quality (Belden bonded pair) Blue Jeans Cables, CAT 6A. Belden bonded pair guarantees very accurate impedance and exactly matched conductor length amongst the pairs. The fact that these cables are individually tested also gives peace of mind.

Of course, feel free to experiment with audiophile Ethernet cables if you want, but I would highly recommend you do comparisons to the BJC CAT 6A and not to some generic Ethernet cables bought from eBay or Amazon, as these are likely to be of Chinese origin and highly suspect in terms of performance. Additionally, one of the main advantages of Ethernet distributed audio is that it allows one to move all the commercial grade computer equipment (NAS, computer server, router, etc) physically and electrically well away from the audio system; hopefully in another room of the home, and powered from the opposite phase of the home AC supply. So a longer run of Ethernet cable is going to be needed (in my set up I run 30' of CAT 6A from where my computer gear is located in an upstairs work room, to my downstairs living room where the audio system is); a long run of (insert your favorite audiophile Ethernet cable here) is going to be a considerable expense.

I personally have not tested any "audiophile" Ethernet cables. As far as directionality goes, hmm. the only factor which could make an Ethernet cable directional would be related to shield connections/grounding: perhaps the marked cables actually have shield connected at one end only, has anyone tested this? As Ethernet signaling goes both directions, the signal part of the cable design cannot be directional at all.

If any Audiophile Ethernet cable makers would like Sonore to test their cables, I am open minded to the possibility and willing to do so if the appropriate cables are loaned to us for such testing. If we find in testing that the cables indeed do make a significant audible difference, we would then be happy to recommend them to our customers.

Again, anyone in the process of evaluating audiophile Ethernet cables needs to make sure they test against a known quality cable and not versus generic cables from eBay and Amazon (or Staples, etc), as those are suspect. Make the test against Blue Jeans Cable CAT 6A, which are individually tested to meet their performance specifications.

[rrwmd]

When I bough a Sonre Rendu a couple years back one of the guys specifically recommended that I get an Audioquest Vodka ethernet cable.

[barrows]

When I bough a Sonre Rendu a couple years back one of the guys specifically recommended that I get an Audioquest Vodka ethernet cable.

Hmm, I find that very curious. We are a small company, and no one in our company uses audiophile Ethernet cabling in their own systems with the Sonore Signature Rendu SE or the ultra Rendu. To my knowledge we have never tested any audiophile Ethernet cabling, not even Cardas for whom we are a dealer. Are you certain you are remembering this correctly?

[Kingrex]

https://www.belden.com/products/ente...s/cat-6a-plugs

Why not I one of these? I don't use wall jacks. I just run from the switch in my basement up through the wall and directly into the back of my server. I like to reduce as many connection points as possible. I do use crap store bought cat 6 jumpers. Sonically you hear a difference between cat 5 and 6. I don't see any reason to believe a well terminated Belden cat 6 with custom length and terminations would not be an improvement over home depot stuff. I'm just not there yet. Soon, but working on other parts of my system now. Not sure why I could not use the male RJ45 Jack to terminate cat 7 either. And, I could choose to ground 1 end. I would probly ground to my linear Solutions switch. Then use the case with a sterling silver wire to drain noise to an isolated ground rod in my yard.

[rrwmd]

I'm fairly certain Barrows. It was the first time (I think) that I heard about audiophile ethernet cables being a thing. I just dug out my receipt and the letter that accompanied it with the warranty info. It was Adrian Lebena that wrote the letter and who recommended the cable.

[rrwmd]

This was December 2013.

[Kingrex]

Isn't Adrian part of The Linear Solution now. He advocates a shielded cat 7 cable he makes. It is to be very short to be effective and the switch goes on your audio rack. The switch feeds directly to your server, nuc etc.

[barrows]

I'm fairly certain Barrows. It was the first time (I think) that I heard about audiophile ethernet cables being a thing. I just dug out my receipt and the letter that accompanied it with the warranty info. It was Adrian Lebena that wrote the letter and who recommended the cable.

Ill ask Adrian to have a look at this thread, but he does not really "do" online forums, haha!

[barrows]

Isn't Adrian part of The Linear Solution now. He advocates a shielded cat 7 cable he makes. It is to be very short to be effective and the switch goes on your audio rack. The switch feeds directly to your server, nuc etc.

No, Adrian Lebena is the VP of Sonore/Simple Design

[barrows]

https://www.belden.com/products/ente...s/cat-6a-plugs

Why not I one of these? I don't use wall jacks. I just run from the switch in my basement up through the wall and directly into the back of my server. I like to reduce as many connection points as possible. I do use crap store bought cat 6 jumpers. Sonically you hear a difference between cat 5 and 6. I don't see any reason to believe a well terminated Belden cat 6 with custom length and terminations would not be an improvement over home depot stuff. I'm just not there yet. Soon, but working on other parts of my system now. Not sure why I could not use the male RJ45 Jack to terminate cat 7 either. And, I could choose to ground 1 end. I would probly ground to my linear Solutions switch. Then use the case with a sterling silver wire to drain noise to an isolated ground rod in my yard.

Do not use "sterling" silver for electrical connections, Sterling is an alloy used by jewelers because of its higher strength and resistance to corrosion vs pure silver.

[barrows]

I'm fairly certain Barrows. It was the first time (I think) that I heard about audiophile ethernet cables being a thing. I just dug out my receipt and the letter that accompanied it with the warranty info. It was Adrian Lebena that wrote the letter and who recommended the cable.

This is the response I just received from Adrian regarding his communication with you:

"I told him that if he had the Audioquest on hand might as well use it. We do prefer the CAT 6a from Blue Jeans but why spend money if he already had the Audioquest."

So there we have it. The official Sonore recommendation is Blue Jeans Cable CAT 6A.

Anyone looking to try various audiophile Ethernet cables out there is recommended to do comparisons vs. the BJC CAT 6A to be sure there is a reliable benchmark for comparison. Please stay away from generic Ethernet cables as many of these are of suspect Chinese origin and do not meet their marked specification. The BJC CAT 6A is produced by Belden in the USA, and terminated and then tested by BJC in WA. See this page for info:

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/data-cables/index.htm

[Kingrex]

Barrows, your talking raw Belden 4800 cmr or cmp bonded cat 6. The belden catalog calls it bonded non bonded. Not sure why. No shielding.

[barrows]

Barrows, your talking raw Belden 4800 cmr or cmp bonded cat 6. The belden catalog calls it bonded non bonded. Not sure why. No shielding.

see the info at the link for BJC above. The CAT 6A they terminate and sell is made especially for them it appears by Belden.

[Kingrex]

Look I'm not trying to pick an argument here, but if a cable is made by Belden especially for BJC, then isn't that an audiophile ethernet cable. I thought your point was plain old Belden cable was the basis and beyond that was everything else.

[CPP]

see the info at the link for BJC above. The CAT 6A they terminate and sell is made especially for them it appears by Belden.

One thing I like they provide a test sheet of the cable you bought that proves the cable meets the Cat 6A spec. .

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/networkcablereports.htm

[Kingrex]

I like I can get 1000 feet of Belden cable for $335 as a contractor. Good ends are $18 each. I can fabricate to length. No connectors at the wall or punchdown terminals at the switch.

I did just purchase 1000 feet of cat 6 by Communications cable. It's really for the job site. Cost me about a hundred and thirty for a thousand feet. I would be willing to purchase 1000 feet of Belden if people wanted to go in on it. My clients are not asking for any specific wire so I get what works and is affordable. It's hard to sell wire 3 times the price of regular for small office or home. .

[barrows]

Look I'm not trying to pick an argument here, but if a cable is made by Belden especially for BJC, then isn't that an audiophile ethernet cable. I thought your point was plain old Belden cable was the basis and beyond that was everything else.

At ~$1.50 USD a foot for the BJC CAT 6A I hardly think that is comparable to what is offered by Audioquest, Wireworld, etc.

[rrwmd]

This is the response I just received from Adrian regarding his communication with you:

"I told him that if he had the Audioquest on hand might as well use it. We do prefer the CAT 6a from Blue Jeans but why spend money if he already had the Audioquest."

So there we have it. The official Sonore recommendation is Blue Jeans Cable CAT 6A.

Anyone looking to try various audiophile Ethernet cables out there is recommended to do comparisons vs. the BJC CAT 6A to be sure there is a reliable benchmark for comparison. Please stay away from generic Ethernet cables as many of these are of suspect Chinese origin and do not meet their marked specification. The BJC CAT 6A is produced by Belden in the USA, and terminated and then tested by BJC in WA. See this page for info:

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/data-cables/index.htm

Not that it really matters but... I’m pretty sure it was as I remembered. The Rendu was the first piece of audio equipment I ever had that required an ethernet cable, so I wouldn’t have already had the Audioquest cable...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alrainbow]

A few thoughts and suggestions on network cables
buying on the internet is ok if it’s from known sources. The Asians have killed credibility on selling fake products.
As a electrical contractor they sell outlets , circuit breakers ,
seal tight , gfci outlets and many other products
i have seen cat xxx not made to specs and if i use my 6k data analiser it’s obviously fake.
Even looks is not correct.
Sanore makes good products and I’ll bet has his hands full with the many off spec data cables made. Exotic audio cables are rarely better in specs. What they mostly are is off spec variations that add jitter that makes them sound better or worse.
Each data port has specs to be followed and any data stream has error correction at work. The off spec cables effect the process.

Cat 7 and 7a is RFI emi shielded and yes a higher data freq. copper solid is best but stiff so if you’re data cable flex’s it’s fake lol.
Cat 6a I use on shirt runs cat 7a for longer runs.
I buy ready made cables as to make them and I can is not Worth the effort.
The shieled cables have metal connectors. No audio devices I have seen uses them
so they mean nothing unless one side is connected to the metal Chasi of one device
just push in a 22 gauge copper wire along the side of the lan port.
Cat 7 and 7 a has real rfi end emi shielding this makes it good for long runs but it still should not be ran next to Power cables.
Cross at 90 • is fine.
If I may suggest a network iso or two by emo systms they cost from 80 to 200 usd and do make a very easy to hear improvement. Many devices claim galvanic but do not the devices i posted does. Some make cards that use a a few types of IC chips that hurt the sound
j cat whom I like makes one that hurts
network isolation and an audio network is a great idea as networking traffic kills the sound too. Don’t use a routuer as a network switch in audio it’s too busy and has priority steams that hurt your sound.
All of the above are facts not fiction. And I don’t make products or am involved in making them. I have no dog in this fight.
Lastly Brad a laptop is poor choice over all for a music server but fine for a control point
I hope I have helped some

[Kingrex]

Hey Al. Was thinking Blue Jean, but now I see others that appear better. Sent a text to the Linear Solution. Want to know if I need high end cable before his switch or does the switch repair and retime the packets. I assume you want an isolator. Between my switch and server meaning I need 2 cables not one.

[Alrainbow]

Yes two iso devices
one at input to server
one at input to your audio network. It should be placed close to input devices
but if you have one network switch it would be at input assuming your nas is also at the network switch. This isolates your audio from the home.
If you can use your router to assign this network it’s own ip so network traffic is only within the connected devices attached to your switch.
The second one goes at input of lan port st server. If you choose only one try it at each location but sever first as I feel it will do more there. If you use tidal it will improve tidal if used at input to switch. Now I don’t know what your audio grade network SW does so it may be only needed in one location.

[Kingrex]

I have been talking to others and hear cat8 done right is better short runs are best. Depending on your system, there are places for better cable and places for decent cable.

I also hear the differences are not great. Changes such as power supplies, power from the wall and power cords make a larger sonic difference.

[barrows]

I have been talking to others and hear cat8 done right is better short runs are best. Depending on your system, there are places for better cable and places for decent cable.

I also hear the differences are not great. Changes such as power supplies, power from the wall and power cords make a larger sonic difference.

Short LAN cables defeat one of the biggest benefits of using Ethernet distributed audio: the fact that one can locate commercial computer gear well away from the system. Do not buy into the fear of a longer Ethernet run such that it makes you put your NAS/Server, router, switch, etc in the audio room near your system. Use a really good Ethernet Renderer (like Sonore), be suspicious of the built in Ethernet inputs in some DACs (some are not good, some are, they are getting better, but some DAC makers are just buying the cheapest off the shelf solution they can find which works), and get the commercial computer gear away from the audio system, and preferably plugged in to the opposite phase of your home's AC supply.
Regular, commercial computer gear radiates a lot of noise, both through the air, and through any (including AC) cables connected to it, getting this stuff physically and electrically away from the audio system is an advantage. I cringe when i see folks trying all kinds of Ethernet tweaks, when they have a NAS/Server, router, and/or switch all in the listening room.