Roon Endpoint DACs

[Alpinist]

Roon Endpoint DACs seem to be gaining popularity. I thought it would be interesting to start a thread on how the digital part of the system works, covering types of DACs, NAS, Roon Core Processors, Tablets, etc.

Ken

[aKnyght]

in my experience the roon software is outstanding -- easy to install, configure, and use. it just works, as they say. as a consequence, roon compatibility is a must for any computer audio equipment that i would consider.

with respect roon endpoints, a DAC with a LAN source input is the only way to go. it just a simpler and more elegant endpoint -- not to mention cutting way down on the sys-admin work involved.

unfortunately, the number of DACs with a LAN input is quite small. this is simply amazing given that pretty much every household device now has network connectivity: thermostats, coffee pots, light switches...

there are a few out there and even the new lampizatOr pacific DAC now has LAN input and is a roon endpoint. hopefully, customer demand will cause more manufactures to include LAN input.

[Dr Tone]

Here are some RoonReady DAC's that I can think of off the top of my head.

Ayre QB-9
Auralic Vega 2 & Altair
Lumin (various models)
MSB (add on module)
Brinkman Nyquist
dCS (various models)
Bluesound Node
Bryson BDA-3
PS Audio DS & DS Jr

[TheOctopus]

A more complete list here. https://roonlabs.com/partners.html

[Mike]

Just cracked open the Roon Nucleus+ to run the Roon Ready DAC’s in the store: Ayre QX5-Twenty, PS Audio DirectStream and (soon) MSB Select II.

This is a gorgeous piece of kit.

If anyone has a Roon Ready DAC, I’m a Roon (license and hardware) reseller.


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[Alpinist]

Hi Mike,

Can you explain what the Roon Nucleus and Roon Nucleus+ do, what the differences are between them and what are the advantages over other types of Roon Core Processors?

Thanks!
Ken

[Dr Tone]

Nucleus:

My dealer had his out on the weekend, it looks great. A great option for those with the money or don't have the skills to manually build the equivalent from a NUC.

[Mike]

Hi Mike,

Can you explain what the Roon Nucleus and Roon Nucleus+ do, what the differences are between them and what are the advantages over other types of Roon Core Processors?

Thanks!
Ken

Ken,

The Nucleus and Nucleus+ is a turn key solution. The Nucleus and Nucleus + run the proprietary Roon OS Software. The OS by Roon is meant to deliver "the best user experience for the Roon user". What does this mean practically? Speed, stability, sonics and support.

The Nucleus runs Roon Core which is the software for the Roon system and it essentially tells the Roon Ready DAC where to find the music (on a NAS, attached HD, etc.) Think of it like miniMServer for Lumin or AMM (Aurender Media Manager) for Aurender. They function in a similar manner.

The Nucleus and Nucleus+ will also soon have other additional support features (like remote support from Roon) and running Crestron Control 4, remote login, etc.

[mdp632]

Looks good. What is the MSRP for these respective products ?

[Mike]

Looks good. What is the MSRP for these respective products ?

$1398 for Nucleus
$2498 for Nucleus+


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[mep]

$1398 for Nucleus
$2498 for Nucleus+


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It looks like an Intel NUC. I just tried to read up on it, and it looks like it was designed in collaboration with Intel. The OS is Roon proprietary which means no Windows! Will it connect via WiFi to the network or does it have to be Ethernet?

[mep]

By the way, I'm currently running Roon and JRiver on a Mojo server I have in for review and Roon plays perfectly with my long in the tooth Mytek Stereo 192.

[asindc]

Hmmm, the Nucleus does not have AES/EBU output. Can that be built into a NUC?

[Mike]

Hmmm, the Nucleus does not have AES/EBU output. Can that be built into a NUC?

Curious, why you would need that? It’s meant to replace a Windows or Mac, it’s not a DAC. It’s meant to be used with a Roon endpoint DAC (which is Ethernet).


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[asindc]

Curious, why you would need that? It’s meant to replace a Windows or Mac, it’s not a DAC. It’s meant to be used with a Roon endpoint DAC (which is Ethernet).


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Doesn't it have a USB output that can be connected to a DAC? I'm probably ascribing a feature to it that is not there, as I'm thinking of it as a self-contained server equivalent to an Aurender.

[Mike]

Doesn't it have a USB output that can be connected to a DAC? I'm probably ascribing a feature to it that is not there, as I'm thinking of it as a self-contained server equivalent to an Aurender.

Nope. The USB ports are for external hard drives.


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[Alpinist]

Doesn't it have a USB output that can be connected to a DAC? I'm probably ascribing a feature to it that is not there, as I'm thinking of it as a self-contained server equivalent to an Aurender.

I think it works like this. You have a router. Nucleus is connected to the router by an Ethernet cable. NAS is connected to the router by an Ethernet cable. Roon Endpoint DAC is connected to the router by an Ethernet cable. Digital music signal goes from NAS to DAC via router. Nucleus using Roon software tells NAS what music to play. You control Roon with a wireless tablet (IPad).

Ken

[jadedavid]

Being a novice in all things digital, I ask the following question.
If for some reason Roon would go out of business would this render all of these roon dedicated devices useless?

[asindc]

Nope. The USB ports are for external hard drives.


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I think it works like this. You have a router. Nucleus is connected to the router by an Ethernet cable. NAS is connected to the router by an Ethernet cable. Roon Endpoint DAC is connected to the router by an Ethernet cable. Digital music signal goes from NAS to DAC via router. Nucleus using Roon software tells NAS what music to play. You control Roon with a wireless tablet (IPad).

Ken

Ah, got it, thanks.

[Mike]

Ah, got it, thanks.

Cool. It’s not like the Aurender (I love my N10), it’s really for those Roon ready DAC’s with network cards.

[mep]

Cool. It’s not like the Aurender (I love my N10), it’s really for those Roon ready DAC’s with network cards.

The N10 converts DSD to PCM or does it do native DSD at only DSD 64?

[audio.bill]

The N10 converts DSD to PCM or does it do native DSD at only DSD 64?

The Aurender N10 has the ability to convert DSD to PCM (by FPGA) for PCM only DACs, but it also supports up to DSD64 via SPDIF or up to DSD128 via USB output. I believe it also provides the option to output DSD as either DoP or native DSD. (I'm sure someone will correct me on that if incorrect! )

[TheOctopus]

Many claim hearing better sound quality by using a dedicated Roon core device such a NUK or this new Roon Nucleus. I do not have the slightest idea why that would be if one is using a good enough computer with a fast enough processor and enough memory so that it is not bogged down by DSP in Roon (if used) and by background applications, etc... None the less, that is what many claim and I don't have a reason to doubt the experienced listeners I have heard this from. I just don't have enough understanding of computers to even begin to figure out why a processor barely cruising along at 3% in a good quality desktop computer would somehow be inferior to a NUK or Nucleus.

[Mike]

Many claim hearing better sound quality by using a dedicated Roon core device such a NUK or this new Roon Nucleus. I do not have the slightest idea why that would be if one is using a good enough computer with a fast enough processor and enough memory so that it is not bogged down by DSP in Roon (if used) and by background applications, etc... None the less, that is what many claim and I don't have a reason to doubt the experienced listeners I have heard this from. I just don't have enough understanding of computers to even begin to figure out why a processor barely cruising along at 3% in a good quality desktop computer would somehow be inferior to a NUK or Nucleus.

Agreed. COULD be fanless, better power supplies, dedicated to just one task, all SS design?


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[Devg]

Mike, what is the difference between Nucleus and Nucleus+ ? If you are using the USB output to the DAC, make sure you get a quality 12-19v power supply and its going to make all the difference

[Mike]

Mike, what is the difference between Nucleus and Nucleus+ ? If you are using the USB output to the DAC, make sure you get a quality 12-19v power supply and its going to make all the difference

Nucleus
i3 processor
4GB RAM
64GB OS SSD (for buffering)
Store libraries up to 12,000 albums (120,000 tracks)
Multi-room systems up to five zones
Gigabit ethernet
2x USB 3.0 port
Thunderbolt 3
Internal 2.5″ HDD/SSD bay
$1398


Nucleus+
i7 processor
8GB RAM
128GB OS SSD (for buffering)
Store libraries OVER 12,000 albums (120,000 tracks)
Multi-room systems OVER five zones
Gigabit ethernet
2x USB 3.0 port
Thunderbolt 3
Internal 2.5″ HDD/SSD bay
$2498

[Devg]

Nucleus
i3 processor
4GB RAM
64GB OS SSD (for buffering)
Store libraries up to 12,000 albums (120,000 tracks)
Multi-room systems up to five zones
Gigabit ethernet
2x USB 3.0 port
Thunderbolt 3
Internal 2.5″ HDD/SSD bay

Nucleus+
i7 processor
8GB RAM
128GB OS SSD (for buffering)
Store libraries OVER 12,000 albums (120,000 tracks)
Multi-room systems OVER five zones
Gigabit ethernet
2x USB 3.0 port
Thunderbolt 3
Internal 2.5″ HDD/SSD bay

Ahh...Thanks Mike. Looks like they made the + for the DSP functions.

[Mike]

Ahh...Thanks Mike. Looks like they made the + for the DSP functions.

Yes, among other things. I went for the + (of course!)

[Devg]

Yes, among other things. I went for the + (of course!)

Yeah, I think they were able to successfully carve out a fanless chassis for the i7. There is none after market case at this point for an i7 NUC.

What are you powering it with ? Are you going straight to the DAC ?

[still-one]

Yeah, I think they were able to successfully carve out a fanless chassis for the i7. There is none after market case at this point for an i7 NUC.

What are you powering it with ? Are you going straight to the DAC ?

Units like this are not directly connected to a DAC. You connect both your DAC and the Nucleus to your network. My DAC is in my two channel room while my Roon device is on another floor some distance away both connected to my router via ethernet. IMHO ethernet it the best connection.

[Devg]

Units like this are not directly connected to a DAC. You connect both your DAC and the Nucleus to your network. My DAC is in my two channel room while my Roon device is on another floor some distance away both connected to my router via ethernet. IMHO ethernet it the best connection.

That is one use case. The other use case is for non-Ethernet based DACs. Therefore, for non-ethernet based DAC will use a streamer in between (like a uR or Sotm sms200) if they think the Nucleus does not perform best connected directly.

I have two home grown custom fanless PC and both runs ROCK (the same OS that runs on Nucleus), they are connected via Ethernet - while one runs up-sampling, the other acts as streamer connected straight to the DAC.

With Nucleus, once you have a top class power supply and assuming you are not using the Roon's DSP functions, it has the potential to be connected straight to the DAC with high-end SQ - it might not beat an Antipode DX but can come close.

[still-one]

That is one use case. The other use case is for non-Ethernet based DACs. Therefore, for non-ethernet based DAC will use a streamer in between (like a uR or Sotm sms200) if they think the Nucleus does not perform best connected directly.

I have two home grown custom fanless PC and both runs ROCK (the same OS that runs on Nucleus), they are connected via Ethernet - while one runs up-sampling, the other acts as streamer connected straight to the DAC.

With Nucleus, once you have a top class power supply and assuming you are not using the Roon's DSP functions, it has the potential to be connected straight to the DAC with high-end SQ - it might not beat an Antipode DX but can come close.

Ethernet DAC's such as MSB & dCS are the SOA. I couldn't wait for the long delayed release of the Nucleus and after comparing Windows NUC's to the Linux sonicTransporter I went with the later. Very happy with the built in SS drive.

[Devg]

Ethernet DAC's such as MSB & dCS are the SOA. I couldn't wait for the long delayed release of the Nucleus and after comparing Windows NUC's to the Linux sonicTransporter I went with the later. Very happy with the built in SS drive.

Yes, sonic transporter is a great h/w for Roon core server and will perform at par with the Nucleus. The sonicTransporter i5 is basically a NUC in a fanless case. The Nucleus is a great turn-key solution for Roon users that doesn't want to delve into the intricacies of building a pc.

[aKnyght]

Nucleus
i3 processor
4GB RAM
64GB OS SSD (for buffering)
Store libraries up to 12,000 albums (120,000 tracks)
Multi-room systems up to five zones
Gigabit ethernet
2x USB 3.0 port
Thunderbolt 3
Internal 2.5″ HDD/SSD bay
$1398


Nucleus+
i7 processor
8GB RAM
128GB OS SSD (for buffering)
Store libraries OVER 12,000 albums (120,000 tracks)
Multi-room systems OVER five zones
Gigabit ethernet
2x USB 3.0 port
Thunderbolt 3
Internal 2.5″ HDD/SSD bay
$2498

i like nucleus. it is well configured and plug-n-play... what could be easier for those looking for a dedicated roon server?

as mentioned earlier it is possible to build a DIY roon server. this is a lower cost alternative for those willing to do a little upfront work downloading / installing / configuring the roon software.

looking at setting up roon server on a headless mac mini as another route to the same functionality, the cost for a comparable machine looks to be about half the price of a nucleus. below is an example comparable to the nucleus+

mac mini with ssd upgrade:
256gb internal ssd (PCIe = fast)
i5 processor, 2.6GHz (upgradable to i7 @ $300)
8gb ram (upgradable to 16GB @ $200)

I/O:

• LAN x 1, HDMI x 1, USB-3 x 4, thunderbolt x 2
• 3.5mm audio in (digital + analogue) + 3.5mm audio out (digital + analogue)
• SDXC card slot

configurable as Roon server running roon core
$899 ($1,199 w/ i7 processor and 16GB memory upgrades)

[CPP]

Yeah, I think they were able to successfully carve out a fanless chassis for the i7. There is none after market case at this point for an i7 NUC.

?

What about these : https://www.atlastsolutions.com/fanless/

https://www.pcmag.com/news/353469/ak...i7-nuc-for-200

[TheOctopus]

i like nucleus. it is well configured and plug-n-play... what could be easier for those looking for a dedicated roon server?

as mentioned earlier it is possible to build a DIY roon server. this is a lower cost alternative for those willing to do a little upfront work downloading / installing / configuring the roon software.

looking at setting up roon server on a headless mac mini as another route to the same functionality, the cost for a comparable machine looks to be about half the price of a nucleus. below is an example comparable to the nucleus+

mac mini with ssd upgrade:
256gb internal ssd (PCIe = fast)
i5 processor, 2.6GHz (upgradable to i7 @ $300)
8gb ram (upgradable to 16GB @ $200)

I/O:

• LAN x 1, HDMI x 1, USB-3 x 4, thunderbolt x 2
• 3.5mm audio in (digital + analogue) + 3.5mm audio out (digital + analogue)
• SDXC card slot

configurable as Roon server running roon core
$899 ($1,199 w/ i7 processor and 16GB memory upgrades)

I've also seen it more than a few times people mentioning switching to a NUK was an audible improvement over using Mac Mini. I can't confirm that fact, I am still using my PC for the Roon Core, just repeating what I heard time and time again.

[nonesup]

Double

[nonesup]

I think it works like this. You have a router. Nucleus is connected to the router by an Ethernet cable. NAS is connected to the router by an Ethernet cable. Roon Endpoint DAC is connected to the router by an Ethernet cable. Digital music signal goes from NAS to DAC via router. Nucleus using Roon software tells NAS what music to play. You control Roon with a wireless tablet (IPad).

Ken

What Roon Core does in the Nucleus, is not telling the NAS what music to play, in fact the NAS in this case does not process music since it does not have any Music Server (Mininserver, Twonky, jRiver ..... or Roon Core if can support it)
The process is really like this: the digital misic signal goes from NAS to Nucleus, there it is processed by Roon Core and sent to the DAC Roon Ready through the RAAT protocol

[shadowlight]

Does Nucleus include Roon Core license?

[still-one]

Does Nucleus include Roon Core license?

No.

[nonesup]

No, you have to buy it separately.

[4N6]

For the Nucleus and Nucleus+, it seems internal storage would come separately. What are the costs for internal SSD's that would fit?

[aKnyght]

I've also seen it more than a few times people mentioning switching to a NUK was an audible improvement over using Mac Mini. I can't confirm that fact, I am still using my PC for the Roon Core, just repeating what I heard time and time again.

fair enough -- i don't have direct experience w/ the SQ of mac mini vs other hardware. i am running roon core on a mac pro desktop. the roon core is installed on the boot disk and storage is on a separate internal HDD. have had zero issues with this hardware configuration, but again have not done any A/B testing.

here's a link to running roon server on a NAS with useful information on hardware specs for those contemplating the DIY route - just pick a compatible hardware/OS platform:

https://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_Server_on_NAS

running on a NAS as described in the link would be equivalent to a nucleus w/ extra internal drives for RAID storage and backup -- all in one box.

[Mike]

For the Nucleus and Nucleus+, it seems internal storage would come separately. What are the costs for internal SSD's that would fit?

You can install an internal 2.5” x 9.5mm drive. That’s up too 4TB SSD or 2TBHDD. The drive must be formatted internally before you move music onto it.


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[Devg]

What about these : https://www.atlastsolutions.com/fanless/

https://www.pcmag.com/news/353469/ak...i7-nuc-for-200

That's cool. I remember Roon folks said they had tough time with the thermals when running dsp functions with their Nucleus case (one of the reason why the release is delayed).

As per the pcmag review the Akasa case is compatible with i7 but as per Akasa.tw its not.

http://www.akasa.com.tw/search.php?seed=A-NUC37-M1B

The Atlast solution seems promising though.

Btw, the 8th generation NUC is going to be released very soon

[Kuoppis]

Nucleus
i3 processor
4GB RAM
64GB OS SSD (for buffering)
Store libraries up to 12,000 albums (120,000 tracks)
Multi-room systems up to five zones
Gigabit ethernet
2x USB 3.0 port
Thunderbolt 3
Internal 2.5″ HDD/SSD bay
$1398


Nucleus+
i7 processor
8GB RAM
128GB OS SSD (for buffering)
Store libraries OVER 12,000 albums (120,000 tracks)
Multi-room systems OVER five zones
Gigabit ethernet
2x USB 3.0 port
Thunderbolt 3
Internal 2.5″ HDD/SSD bay
$2498

I think the Nucleus is a quite sweet plug&play solution. Not being aware of these I went for a pimped-up Synology NAS instead:

- quad core 2.3 GHz CPU
- 8 GB RAM
- 64-bit architecture
- 250 GB SSD HDD for the Roon Core
- 275 GB SDD module for cache
- 24TB for storage with RAID 1 setup
- powered by a 200W HDPlex LPSU

Roon Core installed on the NAS SSD, Roon app on the iPad, Nyquist connected via Ethernet to the network with an AudioQuest Vodka.

Sound-wise the Roon NAS solution beats my Aurender N100H.


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[Devg]

You can install an internal 2.5” x 9.5mm drive. That’s up too 4TB SSD or 2TBHDD. The drive must be formatted internally before you move music onto it.


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yes, with ROCK you need to pop in the drive and then format it from their web GUI. It will not take anything preformatted with any type of filesystem. However, you can use a preformatted USB drive.

Does Nucleus allow user replaceable HDD or does it have to be pre-installed prior to purchase ?

[4N6]

Doesn't it have a USB output that can be connected to a DAC? I'm probably ascribing a feature to it that is not there, as I'm thinking of it as a self-contained server equivalent to an Aurender.

Nope. The USB ports are for external hard drives.

Are we sure about that? From the online manual..."Nucleus and Roon will output audio to devices connected directly by USB or HDMI."

And..."Roon can discover and play music to a variety of audio outputs. From a DAC connected directly to Nucleus, to networked audio outputs throughout your home, you can pick and choose the devices you want to use, then name them for easy access. There are two classes of audio devices in Roon: connected and networked.Connected Audio Outputs

Connected outputs include USB DAC’s and the HDMI output of Nucleus. Our Audio Setup Guide will walk you through the details of advanced setup and configuration options. You can find it here: Audio Setup Basics"

From: https://kb.roonlabs.com/Nucleus_Owner%27s_Guide

[Mike]

Are we sure about that? From the online manual..."Nucleus and Roon will output audio to devices connected directly by USB or HDMI."

And..."Roon can discover and play music to a variety of audio outputs. From a DAC connected directly to Nucleus, to networked audio outputs throughout your home, you can pick and choose the devices you want to use, then name them for easy access. There are two classes of audio devices in Roon: connected and networked.Connected Audio Outputs

Connected outputs include USB DAC’s and the HDMI output of Nucleus. Our Audio Setup Guide will walk you through the details of advanced setup and configuration options. You can find it here: Audio Setup Basics"

From: https://kb.roonlabs.com/Nucleus_Owner%27s_Guide

Ah! Thanks for the correction.


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[4N6]

If this is true, and someone (like me) loves Roon, the Nucleus and Nucleus+ may make for one of the best dedicated usb music servers.