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Thread: Belt Drive Tables Stink
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February 9, 2018, 05:15 PM #1
Belt Drive Tables Stink
As I observe VPI producing direct drives, rim drives, magnetic drives and such, it makes me wonder about belt drives. Surely there must be some disadvantages and drawbacks to belt drives. I myself gave up my Thorens 160 super, returning to my old Denon direct drive. To be honest it was more the bouncy sub-suspension that bothered me more than the drive type. I any case I am happy to have migrated back to direct drive. At my level of analog, I don’t find any depreciable difference. With a tone arm and cartridge upgrade, belt drive offered me zero improvement.
Could it be that the success of the Linn Sondek moved the whole industry into belt drives. Just maybe, they are nothing special. Are we “stuck in a grove ?”, pun intended.== Joe ==
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February 9, 2018, 05:24 PM #2
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Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
I have a vpi scout and a Technics SL-1200m5g.
My observation is that the VP is quieter (lower noise floor), which I attribute mostly to the belt drive. The Technics has better pitch stability, which I attribute to the direct drive with feedback.
My two cents is that both approaches have their merits; and it’s nice to see companies pushing forward with improvements in both technologies.
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February 9, 2018, 05:30 PM #3
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
you have asked a great question... it will be interesting to hear others' opinion on the tradeoffs of direct versus belt drives. i also wonder if there is an advantage of one over the other at any given price point, i.e. does one type offer more bang for the buck?
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February 9, 2018, 05:52 PM #4
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
Two Channel: Yaqin MS-20L amp, Hagerman Cornet2 phono pre, Technics SL1200-M3D, Emotiva ERC-1 CD player, Nakamichi CR-1A cassette, Klipsch La Scalas.
Home Theater:Onkyo TX-SR608 receiver, 2 Emotiva Ultra-10 subs, Klipsch La Scalas (shared with 2 channel system), Klipsch Heresy IIs, Klipsch S-10, Infinity Primus P-150.
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February 9, 2018, 06:59 PM #5
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
Thank you guys, for the vote of confidence. I certainly appreciate you considering my nebulous question, and observation. As I ponder this question, I realize that it can be many other design considerations that make a belt drive quieter than other drives. And who says a rubber belt cannot transfer motor vibrations to a rotating platter. When reviewing rumble and noise specs, direct drives more often come out on top. Even though I don’t see specs as a decisive factor. They are good to help in a decision, but the proof is in the listening.
I am not on a witch hunt here as I heard many excelent belt drive TT’s. As a matter of fact, most of the state of the art TT I have heard were belts. I just feel that long term momentum is taking over here. The momentum for moving coils is also building. Does this make moving magnets and moving irons bad ? It can certainly make them obsolete. It would be sad to see some really good technology taken away from us.== Joe ==
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February 9, 2018, 07:28 PM #6
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February 9, 2018, 07:32 PM #7
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Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
I think as the major DD innovators and manufacturers (Sony, Denon, JVC, Sanyo, etc.) either slowed down or abandoned the high-end TT field it became a matter of economics as to which drive technology survived as belt drives were more cost effective. Harry Weisfeld who was a big DD fan talked at length in multiple interviews over the years about the current prohibitive cost of producing DD motors for turntables. Technics has apparently decided that it has finally become feasible again to re-tool while the others have moved on.
Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Jays CDT3 Mk3 , Auralic Aries G2.2, Holo May KTE, Supratek Cabernet, Kinki Studio EX-B7 monoblocks, Verity Audio Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC, SC & PC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's, Inakustik USB and I2S, (2) Puritan Audio Labs PSM-156 with Groundmaster City, Timbernation rack
Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, Auralic Aries, Aqua La Voce S3, Kinki Studio EX-M1+, Nola KO, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Wireworld SC & IC's, Neotech PC's, SurgeX SA-1810
Greenville, SC- Jays CDT2 Mk 3, Auralic Aries G1, Holo Spring 3 KTE, Supratek Chardonnay, Odyssey Audio Kismet Reference, Rosso Fiorentino Volterra 2, (2) RSL Speedwoofers, iFi Audio Power Station, Wireworld IC's, Inakustik USB and I2s, Triode Wire Lab SC, Triode Wire Lab PC's, Furutech NCF Clear Line, Timbernation rack.
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February 9, 2018, 09:00 PM #8
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February 9, 2018, 11:17 PM #9
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Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
I haven’t heard the 1200g yet, but I assume it’s close to my SL-1210m5g. it surely punches well about the $600 I paid for it new.
I still prefer my vpi scout to it, but like I said before... they both have their strengths.
I expect the SL-1000R to be a step up from anything I have experienced before.
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February 9, 2018, 11:59 PM #10
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
I saw a youtube expose on the Shinola Runwell turntable. They were proud of the fact that their motor cost them $37 wholesale. Could you imagine being proud of a $37 motor in a $2,500 table ! What do other TT motors cost, $10 ? No wonder belts are popular. They reduce rumble on the cheap. If it was a direct drive, a $5,000 table might cost them $100 for a motor. This would certainly keep direct drive tables off the market.
== Joe ==
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February 10, 2018, 12:37 AM #11
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February 10, 2018, 02:10 AM #12
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
I currently have a Vpi Prime and I like it, so I’m not entirely in agreement with the blanket statement in the thread title. Great results can be achieved in many ways and with many technologies, but it takes more than just one or the other mechanical motor implementation to make a great table. And I don’t think many on the thread think the Kronos tables are no good.
That said I have also been looking at the Brinkmann Bardo, which is a great DD turntable. I have heard it in comparison to other tables and it was the one which made me return to vinyl after many years. So, I would not be surprised if one beautiful day the Bardo would replace the Prime.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk“Life’s too short to listen to bad audio.”
Big rig: Brinkmann Taurus DD TT + 12.1 arm + Lyra Etna Lambda SL MC + HRS M3X2/ Cardas Clear Beyond phono/ Stillpoints LPI/ Brinkmann Edison mk2 phono + RöNT II Tube PS/ Synology NAS with Roon + HD Plex linear PSU + Shunyata HD/ AQ Vodka RJ45 + Aqvox Network Switch SE + AQ Diamond RJ45 into DAC/ Brinkmann Nyquist mk2/ Audionet Humboldt/ Cardas Clear Beyond ICs/ Kharma DB9-S 1.1 LS/ Inakustik Reference LS 4004 AIR/ Audioquest Niagara 5000/ Shunyata Alpha power (HC, Analogue, Digital)/ Finite Elemente Pagode Rack/ Stillpoints Ultra SS/ Vicoustic panels + Stillpoints Aperture II.
Small rig: Naim UnitiServe/ Curious USB/ Tidal/ Linn Klimax DS3/ Shunyata Power cable/ Pass Labs INT-60/ Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II/ HiD Diamond 8/ Harbeth 30.2 40th Anniversary/ Shunyata Venom EU7 & Venom 3 HD.
HP rig: MacBookAir/ Tidal/ Auralic Gemini 2000/ Sbooster LPSU/ Audeze LCD-2 Classic + WyWires Red/ Shunyata HD/ Shunyata Hydra 2/ Shunyata Venom.
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February 10, 2018, 02:21 AM #13
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Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
The Bardo is the one "modern" TT that would cause me to think about changing.
Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Jays CDT3 Mk3 , Auralic Aries G2.2, Holo May KTE, Supratek Cabernet, Kinki Studio EX-B7 monoblocks, Verity Audio Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC, SC & PC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's, Inakustik USB and I2S, (2) Puritan Audio Labs PSM-156 with Groundmaster City, Timbernation rack
Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, Auralic Aries, Aqua La Voce S3, Kinki Studio EX-M1+, Nola KO, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Wireworld SC & IC's, Neotech PC's, SurgeX SA-1810
Greenville, SC- Jays CDT2 Mk 3, Auralic Aries G1, Holo Spring 3 KTE, Supratek Chardonnay, Odyssey Audio Kismet Reference, Rosso Fiorentino Volterra 2, (2) RSL Speedwoofers, iFi Audio Power Station, Wireworld IC's, Inakustik USB and I2s, Triode Wire Lab SC, Triode Wire Lab PC's, Furutech NCF Clear Line, Timbernation rack.
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February 10, 2018, 09:07 AM #14
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
I think the title of this thread is a little off center. So the OP has heard other belt drive tables like Kronos, or TechDas, AMG Viella and I guess they all stink. Like anything, it depends on the design, engineering and product quantity and with turntables, and cartridge selection and setup. I like VIP, their service is outstanding and the support is just a phone call away.
2chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)
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February 10, 2018, 09:16 AM #15
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
The direct drive motor in the VPI Vanquish costs $4000. Same motor used in the original Continuum. (Not sure about the current Continuum.)
With regards to the Shinola? How much should the motor cost given say a markup of 4? So if the turntable costs $2500, that leaves them with around $1200. Halve that for parts. That includes an table, arm and cartridge. Where does the main cost of building a turntable lie? Labor. Machining, assembly, testing, etc. Then throw in cost of R&D, materials, etc. Plus do you think the motor is used stock? Most tt manufacturers makes changes to the motors too.Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Doshi Audio EVO phonostage, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.
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February 10, 2018, 06:02 PM #16
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Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
I had a Pioneer PL-51 for around 25 years, direct drive. During that time I bought a new Technics linear tracking etc. transferred the same cart, I took the Technics back and continued with the Pioneer.
Now what replaced finally the Pioneer was a belt driven Rega P3, granted a better cart, but the sound of that rig was an ear opener for me. Until the P3 I didn't realize vinyl could sound so good.
I also realized most of the better turntables were belt driven. It must be that way for a reason. I know there's a big retro following for the Japanese direct drive, for me, I'll stick with my belt until someone shows me a DD that sounds better. Then I'll probably still stick with my belt unless the DD was affordable.
My question for Alex, how does the 1200 stack up to a similar priced Clearaudio or VPI?
I don't know much about Brinkman, nor did I know they were direct drive. I wonder how they deal with the vibration issues of a motor connected to the platter. Even if there is a series of wheels the noise would seem to transfer.Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
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February 10, 2018, 06:29 PM #17
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
Get one of each , i did ,
The Magic is everywhere, belt drive over comes DD advantages with big Mass , DD solidity of drive especially on Piano lacks BD isolation, expansive soundstage width and details.
In the end , Belt, Idler and or DD can deliver high levels of performance , setup is king. That said and at the pointy end , BD with their Big motors , high mass platters, special spindles and isolated table rules .....
Regards
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February 10, 2018, 06:38 PM #18
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
The 160 is super sensitive to springing and IMO not that great in-regards to isolation , modified its a different beast compared to stock , in stock form very sensitive to bounce.
Yet it does not suffer from feedback like the DD , 1200, Denon nor the concrete based kenwoods KD series tables , the latter superior to those two in regards to feedback ..
Agree the 160 can be meh in stock form ...
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February 10, 2018, 07:01 PM #19
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Doshi Audio EVO phonostage, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.
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February 10, 2018, 07:35 PM #20
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
Well if you were to slow down when driving by and read what i actually wrote , I did say i had all drive types .
I guess by saying Im wrong is your short way of saying you disagree
firstly less correct some of your grade school assumptions , a TT with Belt cant be the same as one with DD , the different drive topologies will lead to different design goals and metrics.
While i can see where you are heading with this the most you can draw from your isolated conclusion is Your VPI DD sounds better than your VPI BD ..
Thats your conclusion and others may or may not agree , my VPI BD was well , just Ok, so Im not surprised ...
Regards
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February 10, 2018, 07:39 PM #21
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February 10, 2018, 07:57 PM #22
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
So I take it the answer is no.
Perhaps you need to start investigating other sources.
The best I've had here is the VPI Vanquish and SAT arm. Top that off with an Atlas SL or vdh Colibri Signature and we are talking resolution, quietness, soundstaging, dynamics and low end up the wazoo. You can't believe LPs have tbat much info on them.
Most of all it is absurd to compare tables based soley on drive systems. You have to consider arm, cartridge, phono cable and phonostage, any of which can make or break the sound. Perhals the most underappreciated aspect is the cadtridge/arm interface and we are not talking resonant frequency. Perhaps the most overated is tracing error eg. see Viv arm with 8 pct distortion at skme pts along the arc. Not to mention setup.Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Doshi Audio EVO phonostage, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.
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February 10, 2018, 09:11 PM #23
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
Thats all academic Myles , anyway, Interesting watching you answer your own questions while ignoring my answers, bet you win all your arguments ..
Read back , i said setup is King , you should compare the VPI to the much cheaper Technics SP10R , not to real superstar BD SOTA tables, BD rules at that level ...
So no BD doesnt suck and neither does DD ...
Regards
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February 10, 2018, 09:19 PM #24
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February 10, 2018, 09:22 PM #25
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Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
I was a direct drive guy for a number of years, and still almost all of my personal experience is with direct drive. yet I've just committed 6 figures of my hard earned dollars to a high mass (550 pounds) belt drive turntable. why? because it did things I had never before heard done from a turntable. the music leaped from the grooves, and the sense of drive and flow and lack of any sort of artifact was spooky.....1/2" tape spooky.
i'm agnostic on turntable design dogma, and all in on what I hear. i think it's all about execution. i do think that direct drive does things at more modest price points which offer advantages over belts due to the lack of great sounding motors for belt drives. but the belt drives offer a bit more space and flow, at the expense of a bit less speed stability. so at mid price points there are choices to be made. but above the mid price all the tt's sound pretty good and there are few drive related compromises.
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February 10, 2018, 09:55 PM #26
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
Congrats on the AS Mike , Hope you got your engine hoist ready for that big block ...
Regards
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February 10, 2018, 11:54 PM #27
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Doshi Audio EVO phonostage, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.
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February 11, 2018, 05:13 AM #28
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Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
Welcome back, Myles
Brinkmann Bardo w/ EMT HSD-006 cart, MSB Reference DAC --> Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> Fyne Audio F1-12
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February 11, 2018, 05:15 AM #29
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Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
What's interesting to me is that Brinkmann makes both DD and belt-driven TTs. Seems to me the tech isn't as important as the ultimate execution. For a belt-drive, it means a higher level of execution necessary presumably.
Brinkmann Bardo w/ EMT HSD-006 cart, MSB Reference DAC --> Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> Fyne Audio F1-12
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February 11, 2018, 09:51 AM #30
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
You nailed it, its the execution along with quality parts in the design and assembly of the turntable. I've seen people take the best parts out there and slap them on a device just because they read it online with no regard for the design and the functionally of the device and it ends up functioning below the expectations of the owner. It all maters if you want the best out of your device, be it a TT, computer or a car. .
2chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)
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February 11, 2018, 10:16 AM #31
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
Look up , I had already answered way back , more than once , so here goes again, i have all drive types and if thats not clear enough ,
1. DD
2. BD
3. Idler
There's also , Tape, yes 15ips , even a few of my own recordings, from the days when i actually designed playback systems in studios , then there's some digital , i still play shiny disc stuff (only1500 thou) there's two tuners , listen to FM jazz programs about twice a week , Toobs and SS gear , pre and power , A full assortment of loudspeaker testing gear as i still have my LMS/Leap testing suite , a few dynamic point source speakers , floor standers and stand ones , currently 7 ft tall Ribbon dipole/Hybrid occupies the listening space , a bigger 4 tower one is expected later this year, if i can wager the time, these use true Ribbons , not the quasi stuff others peddle as true ribbons, unfortunately they still suck over 20amps from the wall socket to power them ..
as well as but not least ,
A multitude of prototype stuff made by those still making "stuff" in the crazy business , some really really good , some so so , but i get to evaluate and give my 2 cents, ears not as golden as yours or your current prento , but i try ...
BTW, The only True reference is live music , you know like the ones you actually record yourself ..
Have any..?
Funny how you pop up every 5 yrs Myles with the same questions and absolute statements , i see not much has changed since your Audio Adventure days when you would come into my room , are you still listening to those 3 ft apart Logans ...
Anyway feel free to teach me "stuff" instead of discussion ..
Regards
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February 11, 2018, 10:32 AM #32
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
IF Belt Drive is good for Uncle Mike, it's good enough for me ....
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February 11, 2018, 11:25 AM #33
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February 11, 2018, 11:53 AM #34
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
My two cents:
RIM drives suck ass, especially if you have high efficiency speakers.
I love well designed DD tables. The key is proper isolation from the motor or the vibrations are transmitted back into the cart/arm. DD tables have excellent PRAT. This would be my preference because of speed perfection. In my opinion, speed perfection is paramount to world class vinyl playback.
Belt drives are a safe smart bet. They don’t have the micro resonance issues or risks associated with some DD tables and are generally speed acceptable.My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
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Phone: 941-932-0282
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February 11, 2018, 12:16 PM #35
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Doshi Audio EVO phonostage, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.
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February 11, 2018, 12:26 PM #36
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February 11, 2018, 12:29 PM #37
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
https://suncoastaudio.com/
Phone: 941-932-0282
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/
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February 11, 2018, 12:41 PM #38
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February 11, 2018, 12:46 PM #39
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
Reviewer for Positive Feedback
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February 11, 2018, 01:10 PM #40
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
“Life’s too short to listen to bad audio.”
Big rig: Brinkmann Taurus DD TT + 12.1 arm + Lyra Etna Lambda SL MC + HRS M3X2/ Cardas Clear Beyond phono/ Stillpoints LPI/ Brinkmann Edison mk2 phono + RöNT II Tube PS/ Synology NAS with Roon + HD Plex linear PSU + Shunyata HD/ AQ Vodka RJ45 + Aqvox Network Switch SE + AQ Diamond RJ45 into DAC/ Brinkmann Nyquist mk2/ Audionet Humboldt/ Cardas Clear Beyond ICs/ Kharma DB9-S 1.1 LS/ Inakustik Reference LS 4004 AIR/ Audioquest Niagara 5000/ Shunyata Alpha power (HC, Analogue, Digital)/ Finite Elemente Pagode Rack/ Stillpoints Ultra SS/ Vicoustic panels + Stillpoints Aperture II.
Small rig: Naim UnitiServe/ Curious USB/ Tidal/ Linn Klimax DS3/ Shunyata Power cable/ Pass Labs INT-60/ Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II/ HiD Diamond 8/ Harbeth 30.2 40th Anniversary/ Shunyata Venom EU7 & Venom 3 HD.
HP rig: MacBookAir/ Tidal/ Auralic Gemini 2000/ Sbooster LPSU/ Audeze LCD-2 Classic + WyWires Red/ Shunyata HD/ Shunyata Hydra 2/ Shunyata Venom.
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February 11, 2018, 01:13 PM #41
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
When you have 109db efficient speakers, you will feel different. Trust me. All I heard was "whir, whir, whir". Rick Mak also agreed with me - it was way too noisy (but he was much more diplomatic in his review). The belt drive is perfection in my system. Dead quiet.
If it's working for you, that's good. Rick and I both had major noise issues.My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
https://suncoastaudio.com/
Phone: 941-932-0282
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/
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February 11, 2018, 01:40 PM #42
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
- Location
- Los Angeles
- Posts
- 1,775
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
I want to hear about a Bardo/Oasis vs SP10r shootout some day. Both DD systems, but very different ways of getting there.
Brinkmann Bardo w/ EMT HSD-006 cart, MSB Reference DAC --> Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> Fyne Audio F1-12
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February 11, 2018, 02:09 PM #43
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
Reviewer for Positive Feedback
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February 11, 2018, 02:14 PM #44
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
https://suncoastaudio.com/
Phone: 941-932-0282
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/
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February 11, 2018, 02:47 PM #45
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
Reviewer for Positive Feedback
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February 11, 2018, 02:53 PM #46
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
I got me some of this and I got me some of that...
So why are you being such a secret squirrel about what gear you actually own? It's always helpful in order to put someone's comments into perspective when they actually divulge the names and models of the gear they are listening to in their system.Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
Reviewer for Positive Feedback
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February 11, 2018, 04:59 PM #47
- Join Date
- May 2013
- Posts
- 623
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
I haven't compared them to a Clearaudio. There's a local client with a Clearaudio Concept who's interested in the Technics, so we might do a shootout one of these days.
So far, we've done shootouts here with Regas (P6 and P8s), and VPIs (Classic and Prime). Those ALWAYS ended up in a Technics sale.
We currently have a slightly used Rega P6 with upgraded power supply, in case anyone's interested
cheers,
alex
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February 11, 2018, 06:32 PM #48
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
- Location
- St. Louis, MO, USA
- Posts
- 3,067
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
Interesting about DD and exact speed leading to PRAT, wasn't it the LP-12, at least originally, running a bit fast that gave it so called PRAT helped make it the legend it is today? I personally would want my speed exact as possible, knowing that's the reference speed of the LP.
I think someone wrote a song about it. I want to knowhat PRAT is........ I want you to show me.....Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
Mark Levinson #526, 534 & JBL 4367's
Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
Clarus Concerto & their Crimson cables
HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
SVS PC13 Ultra
Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP
Parasound P6, MBL 8006b, Artisan speakers/subwoofer
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February 11, 2018, 08:01 PM #49
- Join Date
- Aug 2014
- Location
- east of Seattle
- Posts
- 821
Re: Belt Drive Tables Stink
i'd say in the mid market idler's are the PRAT champs, with their mechanical leverage advantages, sometimes adding noise. belts are space, ease and flow champs, dd lowest noise and steady speed, second place in PRAT.....slightly less sexy (less of their own signature).
these are generalities I recognize mostly in the low to mid (under $15k-$20k) list price range. above that spot all the approaches seem to get closer. then mostly belts at the 'super uber' level. the Saskia being the outlier (a dead quiet super uber idler) and lamented gone from the marketplace.....greatly missed.
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February 11, 2018, 10:39 PM #50
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AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.
We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!
Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
Sincerely,
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