Spotify faces $1.6 Billion Problem

[Mike]

https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/02/sp...form=hootsuite


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[Alpinist]

Will any music streaming services be left for us to listen to?

Ken

[DSkip]

So sell some speakers and bail them out Mike!

[Dguitarnut]

Time to sell our Lumins and Aurenders guys!
Where can I buy that Kronos that I like ? Hmmm,mm,mm,mm

[Odyssey]

Is there a copyright attorney in the house?

[BlueFox]

Time to sell our Lumins and Aurenders guys!
Where can I buy that Kronos that I like ? Hmmm,mm,mm,mm

Haven’t streamed a single song (yet) with my Lumin.

[Mike]

So sell some speakers and bail them out Mike!

Ha! I wish. You do have to wonder if streaming music is a viable long term business model. I would think, unless you're Apple and can use it as one of your hooks for selling hardware, I'm not sure it's viable.

If streaming went away, it would suck, but we would just go back to buying CD's, downloads and records. I'm not sure we've had streaming long enough to consider it a "new normal".

[Jack]

Mike

Streaming service could also make sense for the major cable providers like Comcast, Verizon, AT&T or even Rogers in Canada. They are already in the TV, video streaming and ISP business. Also appears they are more capable of dealing with copyright issues with years of practice.

[Mike]

Mike

Streaming service could also make sense for the major cable providers like Comcast, Verizon, AT&T or even Rogers in Canada. They are already in the TV, video streaming and ISP business. Also appears they are more capable of dealing with copyright issues with years of practice.

Yes, that's a good point. It's funny you mention Rogers in Canada, my Dad was one of Ted Rogers' first employees (#2). I heard some great stories of how they got started in the 50's, the first few employees mortgaging their own homes to help the company (can you imagine that happening today?) and the amazing growth. Those early employees like my Dad were rewarded with "never ever ever to be fired" badges by Ted. Even as the company grew to thousands of employees, Ted maintained a list of those first few employees who were the believers and that list had their names on it - with a never to be fired badge.

I remember hearing the intimate stories in the 70's and 80's of the struggles as Ted almost went bankrupt a dozen times due to his aggressive growth goals. But in the end, he got the last laugh building an empire from that young man named Ted Rogers who knocked on my Grandfathers door in the 1950's with just an idea and said, "Doc, I need your help. I need you to convince the farmers to let me run cable on their land so I can put a huge antenna on that building, bring the channels from the city to the rural areas and sell cable TV." My Grandfather said, "you give my son a job who loves this Television stuff and I'll get you your God Damn permit." What a story.

[BlueFox]

It also would make sense for the recording studios to stream their catalogs. But that would be a PITA to have to deal with each individual studio. They need a central service to handle all studios, and insure everyone makes money. Then again, would a public used to free file sharing, and even radio, go with a monthly bill likely to rival cable TV just to hear music?

[Jack]

Mike

And on top of that now they also do baseball with the Blue Jays, so a full service provider. They and Comcast make the most sense as they have the largest market share and could easily bundle it in for a cost less than what you could expect out of Apple. Or if not a current customer you just sign-up online like now. Their infrastructure would also seem to be more readily upgradeable.

[KeithR]

Ha! I wish. You do have to wonder if streaming music is a viable long term business model. I would think, unless you're Apple and can use it as one of your hooks for selling hardware, I'm not sure it's viable.

If streaming went away, it would suck, but we would just go back to buying CD's, downloads and records. I'm not sure we've had streaming long enough to consider it a "new normal".

If streaming isn't viable, the entire industry probably isn't. But Spotify etc. can always raise prices at some point just like Netflix has.

[UltraFast69]

Does it make sense that the streaming model is essentially consumer direct with more control and without advertisement versus the radio model having to attract business and promotion to reach the customer. Either way, revenue needs to be generated but I like the idea of streaming what I want and when...there’s a lot more to this and maybe others can pipe in, but in the end I don’t see this going away anytime soon.


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[Jack]

Keith

At some point if the services continue to try to expand their market share the infrastructure problems that Tidal is facing will get the other two major players unless they partner up with or sell out to someone with the content delivery capacity. So far Qobuz and Spotify have restrained themselves in the "free trial" arena.

[BlueFox]

Don’t forget net neutrality is now over, so ISPs now can/will throttle/charge more for bandwidth use.

[Jack]

Bud

And no doubt they will as Comcast has been to court multiple times over that issue with the video streaming services. It is why it makes more sense for them to buy Tidal than Apple. Even though they have more capitol and devices on paper they would get throttled too and may even be now with just their own service. In today's environment it may come down to however controls the ISP wins.

[sharkmouth]

Yes, that's a good point. It's funny you mention Rogers in Canada, my Dad was one of Ted Rogers' first employees (#2). I heard some great stories of how they got started in the 50's, the first few employees mortgaging their own homes to help the company (can you imagine that happening today?) and the amazing growth. Those early employees like my Dad were rewarded with "never ever ever to be fired" badges by Ted. Even as the company grew to thousands of employees, Ted maintained a list of those first few employees who were the believers and that list had their names on it - with a never to be fired badge.

I remember hearing the intimate stories in the 70's and 80's of the struggles as Ted almost went bankrupt a dozen times due to his aggressive growth goals. But in the end, he got the last laugh building an empire from that young man named Ted Rogers who knocked on my Grandfathers door in the 1950's with just an idea and said, "Doc, I need your help. I need you to convince the farmers to let me run cable on their land so I can put a huge antenna on that building, bring the channels from the city to the rural areas and sell cable TV." My Grandfather said, "you give my son a job who loves this Television stuff and I'll get you your God Damn permit." What a story.

WOW!!! Houston, we have a new playing field!!!

[sharkmouth]

If Tidal fails I'll just go to youtube HD files for the replacement.... within reason of course. Well I do happen to have a Doppler system you know....

[FDPDK]

If streaming services was going down i would really feel it as a los. As i dont have much space so even having 530 CD´s like i currently have saved on Tidal would be a struggle , let alone all the CD´s one can try out to see if its something to like or not. Thanks to the threads on what people are listening to here i have had many new artists come up that i would never have experienced otherwise.

Flemming

[Ritmo]

My perspective is that streaming will survive. Going through growing pains to sort out legal and financial models.

Companies are betting and investing heavily in content. ISPs are going after content to remain relevant.

Technology advances and their application continue to disrupt traditional models. And, this tech cycle is just getting started!

[asindc]

Ha! I wish. You do have to wonder if streaming music is a viable long term business model. I would think, unless you're Apple and can use it as one of your hooks for selling hardware, I'm not sure it's viable.

If streaming went away, it would suck, but we would just go back to buying CD's, downloads and records. I'm not sure we've had streaming long enough to consider it a "new normal".

I’d hate for streaming to go the way of the 8-track tape. I’ve heard many artists through exploration on Tidal that I would have likely never heard of otherwise. And frankly, I would not have bought my Aurender N10 if streaming was not part of the package.

Mike

Streaming service could also make sense for the major cable providers like Comcast, Verizon, AT&T or even Rogers in Canada. They are already in the TV, video streaming and ISP business. Also appears they are more capable of dealing with copyright issues with years of practice.

I agree with this. I don’t know how well financially the video streaming services are doing, but I haven’t read about Netflix, Amazon Prime, or others have these same problems. On the contrary, YouTube is jumping into the streaming market. It would seem to make sense that those who are doing video streaming could incorporate audio streaming into their operations.

[CPP]

I’d hate for streaming to go the way of the 8-track tape. I’ve heard many artists through exploration on Tidal that I would have likely never heard of otherwise. And frankly, I would not have bought my Aurender N10 if streaming was not part of the package.



I agree with this. I don’t know how well financially the video streaming services are doing, but I haven’t read about Netflix, Amazon Prime, or others have these same problems. On the contrary, YouTube is jumping into the streaming market. It would seem to make sense that those who are doing video streaming could incorporate audio streaming into their operations.

Interesting articles on video :
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nelsong.../#25a871df3319
https://www.ft.com/content/04ffc136-...8-edda0bcbc928


It appears people would rather watch movies with family or close friends than set by themselves and listen to music. Netflix had 109.25 million streaming subscribers worldwide.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ers-worldwide/

How did Netflix succeed https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterco.../#7e7edaba2886

Darn shame Netflix couldn't start or purchase a music streaming company, they seem to know how to successfully run a streaming business

If the music streaming business died, I guess I would continue to play my 3000+ CD's and LP's, thats why I continue to purchase more LP's and CD's. Might as well enjoy music one way or the other.

[Kuoppis]

If the music streaming business died, I guess I would continue to play my 3000+ CD's and LP's, thats why I continue to purchase more LP's and CD's. Might as well enjoy music one way or the other.

I love my vinyl, but streaming is just offering such a humungous catalogue, so my own stuff really looks like a joke in comparison.


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[Kuoppis]

Ha! I wish. You do have to wonder if streaming music is a viable long term business model. I would think, unless you're Apple and can use it as one of your hooks for selling hardware, I'm not sure it's viable.

If streaming went away, it would suck, but we would just go back to buying CD's, downloads and records. I'm not sure we've had streaming long enough to consider it a "new normal".

Super interesting thread, thank you.

I think the business and operating models are not mature yet. The catalogues are not stable, and next year your this year’s catalogue is considered a commodity and value is plummeting.

I guess the problem arises from the fact that providers need to continue paying stable prices for an aging catalogue, while being simultaneously constantly forced to invest in new material. At the same time consumer expectation is that what is there will stay there. The royalty model is the problem, as those are payed on an annual basis.

I do see stuff disappearing from Tidal all the time. Today I could not find Chris Jones’ Roadhouses and Automobiles.

The difference between Netflix and the music streamers is that they create their own content, which is what is keeping them current. The streamers don’t do that, but I think it would be good for both, the streaming and music industries.


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[AJ Soundfield]

My perspective is that streaming will survive. Going through growing pains to sort out legal and financial models.

Companies are betting and investing heavily in content. ISPs are going after content to remain relevant.

Technology advances and their application continue to disrupt traditional models. And, this tech cycle is just getting started!

Yep. Spotify was targeted because of being big, but streaming only, unlike Apple which has huge reserves to fight back against protracted legal extortion

[erniejade]

I was hopping for the high rez from spotify so I hope they pull through. I can say with Tidal, my listening has changed quite a bit. I haven't bought a cd or LP in about a year but, my Wine drinking has gone up a little bit LOL

[CPP]

I love my vinyl, but streaming is just offering such a humungous catalogue, so my own stuff really looks like a joke in comparison.


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Streaming opens up channels to explore new music on the cheap as compared to buying, but if Tidal dies or streaming services fade away, I like I said, will just play my music and I will continue to buy music when I find something I like.

[AJ Soundfield]

Streaming isn't going away, it's just beginning

[Kuoppis]

Streaming opens up channels to explore new music on the cheap as compared to buying, but if Tidal dies or streaming services fade away, I like I said, will just play my music and I will continue to buy music when I find something I like.

I agree. And while I enjoy Tidal, and most lately to an increasing intent, I still buy vinyls of the stuff I do enjoy the most.

But it is interesting, with the vast streaming offering there is a risk it kind of diminishes the value of any individual album.


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[the professor]

I agree streaming isn't going away. But high quality streaming might!

The masses could care less about high quality streaming and there just isn't enough of us crazies to support the high end.

Looking back on things - if in high school I had the quality of compressed digital has today on my phone with some good ear buds - man that would have been amazing. Not sure I would have cared to get something better. But in high school - 70s-80s-90s, well, there just wasn't anything close, so I had to get a expensive system.

Streaming isn't going away, it's just beginning

[UltraFast69]

Interesting topic.

I recall when free file sharing (Napster) gave way to pay for the music iTunes, and then Streaming came along breaking it down by pay for a service and get it all, offering more for less, like radio in a sense, but you pay for the service versus listening to commercials who fund the stations. In all this the musicians have to get paid.

Musicians today have to diversify to create revenue, gone are the days of tours, albums and t-shirts.

So now back to streaming, its simple, quick and cost effective for the subscriber. A revenue stream to the musicians, maybe, but not what they would like to see by selling the album, but it’s still income and they have to work harder to make a living, like all of us.

Will streaming go away, I don’t think so. Will it morph into other diverse industries, maybe.

Not sure what it takes to run one of these businesses, a website, servers, internet service, and the makeup of overhead but this is a technology business, and technology is supposed to get cheaper overtime, right?

I do think collaboration in some form can take place and figure this out.

My vote as I ramble on a Friday night, streaming is here to stay, hi-res mind you.




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[Kuoppis]

And the problem just got bigger:

Songwriters’ court victory deals a blow to Spotify
https://www.ft.com/content/df9a342a-...0-9c0ad2d7c5b5



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