New B&O ICE Power 1200AS2 Module @ Nord: 600W into 8Ohms 1200W into 4Ohms

[Showroom Dummies]

https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/sing...00W-into-4Ohms

Will anyone be trying the Nord amp with this new module?

[audio.bill]

Interesting that Nord apparently finds this new ICE module to perform at a level below their top offering which still uses Ncore Hypex modules. A previous member of this forum (who was banned in short order) is claiming that this latest generation ICE module performs at a much higher level, declaring it as the best sound he's ever heard from any amp at any price! Of course he's already started to sell them and has many buyers lining up to purchase the amps based only upon his hype. I guess time will tell as to their ultimate level of performance.

[mep]

I thought all of the initial buzz over Class D amps has kind of faded.

[Mike]

I thought all of the initial buzz over Class D amps has kind of faded.

Wishful thinking. Hard to believe Class D has been around since 1964.

I would still take a JOB225 A/B amp over similarly priced Class D amps.

[mep]

Wishful thinking. Hard to believe Class D has been around since 1964.

I would still take a JOB225 A/B amp over similarly priced Class D amps.

That kind of says it all doesn't it? Class D might have been "around" since 1964, but please list 3 amps that claimed audiophile pretensions prior to 1985 (and I picked that year somewhat at random). And when I think about it, I don't know if I remember a single person with an analog-centric system that uses Class D amps. Seems like it was always people with digital only systems that loved them some Class D.

[Mike]

That kind of says it all doesn't it? Class D might have been "around" since 1964, but please list 3 amps that claimed audiophile pretensions prior to 1985 (and I picked that year somewhat at random). And when I think about it, I don't know if I remember a single person with an analog-centric system that uses Class D amps. Seems like it was always people with digital only systems that loved them some Class D.

I’m thinking....

I got nothing....

Even the Rowland Class D amps weren’t anywhere near the sonic performers of his AB designs IMO and if Jeff can’t make it work, I don’t know who can.

I would take Jeff’s little 625 S2 amp over any of the bigger Class D amps. Just saying...


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[mep]

I’m thinking....

I got nothing....

Even the Rowland Class D amps weren’t anywhere near the sonic performers of his AB designs IMO and if Jeff can’t make it work, I don’t know who can.

I would take Jeff’s little 625 S2 amp over any of the bigger Class D amps. Just saying...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I guess my main point was the fact that you stated that Class D has been around since 1964. What the hell were those applications? They weren't high-end audio. I don't think that Class D amps tried to elbow their way onto the high-end dining room table until well after the year 2000. They don't seem to have grown any legs in the high-end audio industry since they (Class D amp manufactures using basically the same Class D modules) announced they were here and the revolution had started.

[audio.bill]

John Ulrich designed the first commercially available Class D amp in the '70s under the Infinity brand and later continued to design such amps for Spectron. For the record I agree with Mike in that I've never heard a Class D amp that I like, but have no bias against properly engineered and refined SMPS designs like Jeff Rowland uses in his Class A/B designs like the 625 which I own. Here's are some details including mention of a Sony Class D amp which apparently followed:

"During the late ‘70s, Infinity produced a Class-D, or switching, amp; Sony introduced one soon after. Switching amps have great efficiency because they treat the signal as a chain of full-amplitude pulses, altering the audio output’s amplitude by changing the pulses’ duty cycle. John Ulrich, one of the principal designers of the original Infinity amplifier, currently makes a very good-sounding high-power switching amplifier under the Spectron name."
Relevant text taken from: http://www.gammaelectronics.xyz/audio_may1997_history_3.html

[a.wayne]

I’m thinking....

I got nothing....

Even the Rowland Class D amps weren’t anywhere near the sonic performers of his AB designs IMO and if Jeff can’t make it work, I don’t know who can.

I would take Jeff’s little 625 S2 amp over any of the bigger Class D amps. Just saying...


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kinda weird How Roland dropped his previous work to go full gang into Class-D ... BTW I know of more than a few ditching their Job Amps for Class-D a few years ago..

Regards

[Mike]

A positive outlook on Class D from Srajan:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/2017/2.html

[Showroom Dummies]

I've not owned/listened to many amps over the years but I'm more than happy with my class D Nord

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[audio.bill]

I've not owned/listened to many amps over the years but I'm more than happy with my class D Nord

That's really all that matters! Enjoy the tunes in the best of health, and Happy New Year!

[AJ Soundfield]

A previous member of this forum (who was banned in short order) is claiming that this latest generation ICE module performs at a much higher level, declaring it as the best sound he's ever heard from any amp at any price! Of course he's already started to sell them and has many buyers lining up to purchase the amps based only upon his hype.

Hah, didn't know Miv was once a member here. Yes, seen that thread. The gullibility of many audiophiles will never cease to amaze me.

As a side note, one of my many large scale experiments involved testing hundreds of audiophiles who swooned about the sounds of the Class A SS and tube amps they were hearing with their ears...when in fact it was "hidden" class D. No names to spare the innocent.
Fun stuff.

[sharkmouth]

Right, so everyone's going to buy a Devialet then & the star wars speakers & be done???

[rklein]

Interesting thread...

I diy'd ncore monos and very much enjoyed them over my tube gear. My pre was a Bent Audio Tap. My system never sounded so good.

I then sold them to buy a JOB225 amp. THAT was a mistake! Sold the Job and bought a MW KWI-200 Integrated. Returned that to Dan Wright and purchased a Wells Audio Integrated.

Ended up selling the Wells and purchased Colin's Nord One Up Monos which I pair with a TLA MZ2 Pre with NOS Tubes. Pretty happy again.

Yes...I am going to try the new AS1200 from Mike. For the price of admission, why not?

Full disclosure....I am a professional classical musician who has played in symphony orchestras for over 37 years. This can really be a curse when combined with looking for audio pieces!

Regards

Randy

[Devg]

I am getting a pair of them (monoblock configuration) hopefully sometime next week. for the price of admission its worth the shot and who knows what newer tech brings in. I figured that if it doesn't work for me, I can put it in use in my HT system happily

[Devg]

I got an ad mail from Colin at Nord and seems like they are also in the process of building an amp out of this module but priced lower than than the NC500 based Nord One up.

[Jack]

Dev

If you've still got your Nord's let us know how they compare.

[Devg]

Dev

If you've still got your Nord's let us know how they compare.

Yes, will do.

[Jack]

Dev

I hope Mike delivers what he says he will. Seems well intentioned but sometimes he reminds me of Mark Schifter with constantly changing variables.

[Devg]

Dev

I hope Mike delivers what he says he will. Seems well intentioned but sometimes he reminds me of Mark Schifter with constantly changing variables.

yes I agree that it can get confusing at times. Having dealt with him before, he has quiet the ambition and intention to build great products at reasonable price. Will know next week

[Showroom Dummies]

I am getting a pair of them (monoblock configuration) hopefully sometime next week. for the price of admission its worth the shot and who knows what newer tech brings in. I figured that if it doesn't work for me, I can put it in use in my HT system happily

I'm looking forward to this.

Sent from my Swift 2 Plus using Tapatalk

[Jack]

Dev

Did your "kits" show up yet?

[Devg]

Dev

Did your "kits" show up yet?

Unfortunately, not yet....

[AJ Soundfield]

Unfortunately, not yet....

Which "Bay" are you in the area of?

[Devg]

Which "Bay" are you in the area of?

South

[AJ Soundfield]

Well, if that's anywhere near Tampa "Bay" area, make sure to hook up with either SAS or Sarasota so we can hear the mighty MIVs...if they materialize.

[Jack]

AJ a significant number of them have already been delivered, assembled and are breaking in so they have materialized.

[watts]

Interesting thread...

I diy'd ncore monos and very much enjoyed them over my tube gear. My pre was a Bent Audio Tap. My system never sounded so good.

I then sold them to buy a JOB225 amp. THAT was a mistake! Sold the Job and bought a MW KWI-200 Integrated. Returned that to Dan Wright and purchased a Wells Audio Integrated.

Ended up selling the Wells and purchased Colin's Nord One Up Monos which I pair with a TLA MZ2 Pre with NOS Tubes. Pretty happy again.

Yes...I am going to try the new AS1200 from Mike. For the price of admission, why not?

Full disclosure....I am a professional classical musician who has played in symphony orchestras for over 37 years. This can really be a curse when combined with looking for audio pieces!

Regards

Randy

I recall reading a similar post many years ago from a conductor only he was tauting his speakers. I was researching a speaker purchase and he owned Maggie 20.1's. Helped me decide to get my 3.6's: I don't think I will ever part with them. My dual Nord One-ups make them sing. I may try Pass labs one day but I am not sure I want to tolerate the heat output when it is 40 degrees Celsius in the summer here.

[Devg]

I have almost 75hrs on them and they are very promising so far (and a bargain at the same time). For folks who are interested, I posted my initial impression on AC.

[Showroom Dummies]

I have almost 75hrs on them and they are very promising so far (and a bargain at the same time). For folks who are interested, I posted my initial impression on AC.

Not sure what you mean by 'AC'. Could I have a link. Thanks

[Devg]

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php...700#msg1660700

[tane0019]

Surprise that the new ICE better the Ncore with the SI Opamp.

You do have the latest rev buffer board ?

[Devg]

well, I am not surprised a bit Technology advancement and innovation always leads to good things - today B&O is edging out but I am sure Hypex has something up its selves that's going to turn the tables at some point.

the input buffer in the Nord can be improved quiet a bit from what is it today. I have to check but I think I might have the rec C board.

[AJ Soundfield]

Technology advancement and innovation always leads to good things - today B&O is edging out but I am sure Hypex has something up its selves

Don't mean to rain on the parade, but B&O has no technical advantage over the Hypex. In fact the opposite may be true. Yes, I've tested both AS2 and NCores extensively, including some with a bit more scientific rigor than someones purely subjective anecdotal experience with a large dose of expectation bias and the hype machine running full bore. It would also be sort of helpful to compare modules with similar power output (not to mention a slew of other controls to prevent self deception ).
Both AS and NC are very very good and largely transparent into any reasonable load if properly implemented.

cheers,

AJ

[Devg]

Don't mean to rain on the parade, but B&O has no technical advantage over the Hypex. In fact the opposite may be true. Yes, I've tested both AS2 and NCores extensively, including some with a bit more scientific rigor

Cool. So what was your result ? Who won ? If Hypex, can I also get one of those amps as well ?

It would also be sort of helpful to compare modules with similar power output

That might possibly happen someday with the Merrill Veritas but I don't have it now.

Both AS and NC are very very good and largely transparent into any reasonable load if properly implemented.

What exactly you mean by "properly implemented" ? Care to elaborate ?

[a.wayne]

Both AS and NC are very very good and largely transparent into any reasonable load if properly implemented.

cheers,

AJ

What about unreasonable loads .....

[AJ Soundfield]

What exactly you mean by "properly implemented" ?

It means both are sold as "modules", so one still has to provide input, output connections, etc.
In my implementation they are directly coupled to the drive units, there are no passive reactive components between. They become a part in the overall total circuit design.
Btw, in my previous interactions with Mivera, it was immediately obvious he had zero knowledge of basic (High school) level physics, much less EE>, nor had he performed an electrical measurement in his adult life.
IOW, he's the perfect "audiophile" designer.

Cool. So what was your result ? Who won ?

Neither. As I said, both proved to largely transparent (as far as sonic "signature") goes vs the other. The "winner" for me would depend upon power requirements, cost, reliability, etc.
No question that for the money, the 1200AS2 provides a boatload of clean power. For my current needs (i.e. directly coupled to one driver) it's overkill, but never say never. I could see where it might be alluring for folks with low sensitivity, power hungry passive speakers.

cheers,

AJ

[AJ Soundfield]

What about unreasonable loads .....

Don't have any but it's conceivable that could create some misbehavior if pathological enough.

[a.wayne]

Don't have any but it's conceivable that could create some misbehavior if pathological enough.

Have you ever played around with the output inductor , i had theorized this was the cause of timbre issue not heard at 8 ohm but when at 4/2 ohm operation. In wanting to build a full low Z operational Class-D , thought it best to lower the PSU voltage and possibly play with inductor value , i wont have any need for 400-600 watts at 8 ohm, but would like 400 @ 1 ..

The B&O current capabilty look interesting here ....

[nicoludio]

Neither. As I said, both proved to largely transparent (as far as sonic "signature") goes vs the other. The "winner" for me would depend upon power requirements, cost, reliability, etc.
No question that for the money, the 1200AS2 provides a boatload of clean power. For my current needs (i.e. directly coupled to one driver) it's overkill, but never say never. I could see where it might be alluring for folks with low sensitivity, power hungry passive speakers.

cheers,

AJ

AJ, in that directly coupled situation, would a more powerful module (and over specified for the requirements) result in better sound from the extra headroom? Typically, it works for passive systems but was wondering if that holds true for directly coupled situations as well?

[Randy Myers]

Well there are a lot of highly rated Class D amplifiers out there. Whichever flavor they go with, there is a ton more involved, how it is implemented, etc.

Soon I will have a Tube, a Class A/B, and a Class D amp in my rotation.... so whatever mood I am in....

[AJ Soundfield]

Have you ever played around with the output inductor , i had theorized this was the cause of timbre issue not heard at 8 ohm but when at 4/2 ohm operation. In wanting to build a full low Z operational Class-D , thought it best to lower the PSU voltage and possibly play with inductor value , i wont have any need for 400-600 watts at 8 ohm, but would like 400 @ 1 ..

The B&O current capabilty look interesting here ....

No, I leave the inductors alone, no mods. Both are capable of driving speakers that dip to 1 ohm, but it really depends where (frequency) and phase angles, as that is largely a pathological scenario. Yes, I'm aware of some old stats dipping below 1 ohm at HF

[AJ Soundfield]

AJ, in that directly coupled situation, would a more powerful module (and over specified for the requirements) result in better sound from the extra headroom? Typically, it works for passive systems but was wondering if that holds true for directly coupled situations as well?

Not unless the driver can handle it. Yes, headroom is a key consideration in the overall design scheme, as is driver power compression/thermal limits when directly coupling. There is a huge benefit to doing so vs driving a passive/reactive voltage divider with saturation and hysteresis effects, connected to drive units with changing T/S parameters with drive level.

[AJ Soundfield]

Soon I will have a Tube, a Class A/B, and a Class D amp in my rotation.... so whatever mood I am in....

Careful you don't go crazy.
Wait, never mind, part of the hobby...

[Randy Myers]

You can say that again AJ ...

[Phil A]

You can say that again AJ ...

+1 on that. I ordered one of the Mivera amps for the heck of it (hopefully have it in about a month). I have doubts as to how they will drive my speakers but I have multiple systems I can move it to if it doesn't work out.

[mocenigo]

Don't mean to rain on the parade, but B&O has no technical advantage over the Hypex. In fact the opposite may be true.

Have you tried also the 1200AS2? It is the first of a new generation of Icepower amplifier modules based on a new chipset. I would not be surprised if it sounded radically different from, say, the 700AS2.

[joeinid]

Welcome to the forum, thank you for joining.

[Phil A]

Welcome to the forum as well