Sugden LS21

[Joseph R.]

Will be setting up an appointment to hear these floorstanding two ways in January 2018. Have lusted for Sugden gear ever since I started reading the British mag Popular HiFi in the early eighties. Sugden has a long history as a boutique brand. They only make one speaker. Has anyone heard them, or know anything about them ? I will certainly report back after auditioning.

[anji12305]

Will be setting up an appointment to hear these floorstanding two ways in January 2018. Have lusted for Sugden gear ever since I started reading the British mag Popular HiFi in the early eighties. Sugden has a long history as a boutique brand. They only make one speaker. Has anyone heard them, or know anything about them ? I will certainly report back after auditioning.

1/4 wave TL designs require careful placement. Casual layout can emphasize a single room mode to produce "one-note" bass.

Experiments with the similar Definitive Technology designs leave me skeptical about this approach.

Bring your own, familiar source material for evaluation. Beware showpiece programming.

[Joseph R.]

Thanks for the warning. Had every intention of bringing my own recordings. I prefer a transmission line loading to a ported design, however an acoustic suspension design would be ideal for my small room and nearfield listening. Have plenty of SS power so that’s not an issue. Meaning no disrespect, but never took Def Tech too seriously. Heard them a number of times, mostly in mid-fi retail stores.

Sugden is definitely putting their reputation on the line by offering only one model speaker. But after all is said and done, the proof is in the pudding.

[anji12305]

Implementation of 1/4 wave TLs is much the same, in the two design cases - both appear to be straight, untapered "pipes".

If the column of air is unimpeded by a labyrinth or stuffing, it may excite a given room node above all others.

Is a home demonstration possible?

[Joseph R.]

Amazingly, the British have taken ported designs further than I’ve ever expected. Hopefully, this TL loading will take more phasing into consideration. I will be traveling 150 miles to hear the LS21’s. I will ask about a home audition only if they pass muster. Looks like they have very little USA exposure.

[RichardAusten]

You may want to have the speakers placed in the corners and see how that works. Audio Note hired Andy Whittle (LS-3/5a guru from Rogers and Celestion) to design their Zero series speakers which like the Sugden is a 1/4 wave hybrid transmission line, folded horn, and bass reflex design. They've quietly been selling them for over 17 years now. But they do mention it is best coming from a room corner like all their other speakers but especially so these sorts of designs.

The Sugden sounded quite good but if you can find the AZ Three - you might pay about the same but you will get big gains as a full range speaker (8 inch hemp woofer) and 95dB sensitive so happy with 5 watts. The Sugden reminds me of the AN AZ One that Audio Note made - I do like the finish on the Sugden more though - it has a nicer finish and more elegance while the AN chipboard is a little cheap looking.

Still the AZ Two is $1600 US and is an alternate option if you think you will one day go to lower output (and imo better sounding) Single Ended tube amplifiers or for that matter Sugden's own A21a amp or a First Watt SIT.

Obviously go with your first choice in the Sugden but if for whatever reason there is anything you're not happy about then use the AX Three or Two as a fallback audition. Tekton makes something similar but it's direct sales so no audition option. This a review of the AZ Two - They managed 94dB and down to 20hz - not too bad given the price.

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/art...ound;4584/9750

[Joseph R.]

Thanks Rich for the advice. Loved the AN “E” speakers at Axpona Chicago last April. They were only second to my favorite, the Graham LS5/8. Too bad, too big for my room.

Audio Note does have some pricing issues though. When a speaker model can go from 5K to 50K it gets me wondering. And the price difference is simply “options”. This scared me away from AN for good.

Glad you liked the Sugden’s. Can’t wait to hear them, although I remain skeptical as always.

[RichardAusten]

Thanks Rich for the advice. Loved the AN “E” speakers at Axpona Chicago last April. They were only second to my favorite, the Graham LS5/8. Too bad, too big for my room.

Audio Note does have some pricing issues though. When a speaker model can go from 5K to 50K it gets me wondering. And the price difference is simply “options”. This scared me away from AN for good.

Glad you liked the Sugden’s. Can’t wait to hear them, although I remain skeptical as always.

I think most brands have pricing options. The $50k model for example has different woofers, different tweeters and has an outboard crossover the size of an amplifier with far pricier parts. Other manufacturers do the same thing - you buy a B&W 805 for $3k and the next model up is a floorstander version with the same drivers as the 805 and they add a woofer for more bass. Price goes up. Then they have another floorstander - one more woofer much more money - then the 802 - bigger woofers and more cabinet and now $15,000 as opposed to $3,000.

I don't think having more choices should be viewed as a bad thing. Companies like Pure Audio Project for example have several versions of the same speaker - the price difference is dependent on which full range driver your choose such as a Voxativ single driver or a Horn or something else. Even amplifier makers do these sorts of things - Many makers essentially build one main kind of amplifier and the only real difference between models is that they use larger torroid transformers to gain larger watt totals.

To a B&W guy an 805 may sound a lot better than a 705 - both standmounts from B&W - why pay more? Perhaps a better tweeter or better cabinet. That's no different than Audio Note - they make a CD player that uses a $20 transport mechanism and other CD players using the Philips Pro 2 which costs $500. The AN E/Lx I had uses their standard Hemp woofer and modified Foster Tonnegan Tweeter and Lx copper cables. The AN E/AlniCo uses far costlier Silver SPX wiring and on the voice coils, AlniCo woofer and Alnico tweeters.

The main difference is that in brands like a B&W and most others you can physically see what you are getting - another woofer - a larger albeit usually cheap cabinet (MDF). With AN the inside is changed and you can't see the difference.
Below the AN Alnico tweeter on the left versus the regular tweeter on the right. Plus some speaker makers produce molds and manufacturer in China - AN is hand built in Denmark



You can see the speaker manufacturing in the video here https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2017/...eter-qvortrup/

I think choice is a good thing and when we start getting into prices of $5,000+ I like being able to have 40+ finish options instead of the 3-4.

[Joseph R.]

Understand your position Rich, but think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. My profile may look like a newbie, but have been in this hobby for 50 years. I have seen it all. I love the AN gear but still don’t like their pricing policy. At Chicago Axpona AN had a sign on the ‘J’ speaker showing:


The speaker you were hearing was no where near the displayed price. AN later apologized to me for the misrepresentation.

Sorry to go way off topic. Would still love to hear from members about Sugden speakers.

[RichardAusten]

Hi Joe - well that is too bad for AN (and good for Sugden). I know a few dealers who grumble that they make far far too many products. Mis-pricing is fine when the price listed is too high! Otherwise...

[Jack]

Joe

If you are in the US and are looking for smaller footprint floorstanders that employ TL principals contact Bob Neill of Amherst Audio and reviewer for PFO. He carries the Reynaud line as well as AN and is a long time fan and owner of in the past of Harbeth, Spendor and other BBC favorites. Reynaud has several floorstanders in your "price range" that may fit what you are looking for.

As for AN speakers, Peter Q has taken the design work of a legend in Peter Snell and turned his work into a pricing and options circus. As an owner of multiple Snell designs including several of the iconic "Type A's" I find that AN has taken many of the lesser works that are easily duplicated and attempted to make a fortune whereas Snell was trying to give great sound to many at a fair price like the other New England design icons he followed. Unfortunately if you have followed Richard over the years on multiple forums he always ends up in the same place in any thread he joins as the AN cheerleader.

[RichardAusten]

Joe

If you are in the US and are looking for smaller footprint floorstanders that employ TL principals contact Bob Neill of Amherst Audio and reviewer for PFO. He carries the Reynaud line as well as AN and is a long time fan and owner of in the past of Harbeth, Spendor and other BBC favorites. Reynaud has several floorstanders in your "price range" that may fit what you are looking for.

As for AN speakers, Peter Q has taken the design work of a legend in Peter Snell and turned his work into a pricing and options circus. As an owner of multiple Snell designs including several of the iconic "Type A's" I find that AN has taken many of the lesser works that are easily duplicated and attempted to make a fortune whereas Snell was trying to give great sound to many at a fair price like the other New England design icons he followed. Unfortunately if you have followed Richard over the years on multiple forums he always ends up in the same place in any thread he joins as the AN cheerleader.

Hi Jack I can't disagree with you - I do like Audio Note a whole lot and I do recommend them a lot and on many forums and for over a decade! On the other hand, I am pretty consistent and I believe in what I recommend.

But you should also consider that while Peter does charge some hefty dollars much of that came from consumers who kept badgering him to make higher quality versions. The AN OTO amp I have for example is in the $3k price range and many OTO owners emailed Peter to make a higher quality version with better transformers, caps etc. So they came out with one. But you should be fair to Peter - he still sells the less expensive model.

The basic AN E and AN J and AN K that Audio Note sell are all much better than the Snell variants and these versions are not crazy priced and are in line with inflation from the 80s Snell versions. And yes I am a fan - I enjoyed my AN J/Spe speakers for 13 years and sold them for nearly 20% more than I originally paid - and I had the boring black finish. So when people talk about high AN prices I have no interest - what I want to know is what is my NET cost. If I buy an AN speaker for $2500 in 2003 and sell it for $2950 in 2016 that is pretty good. OTOH if I buy a speaker in 2003 for $2000 to save a few bucks (against AN's high prices) and in 2016 I sell it for $600 - well which person will end up the happier? Which person is likely to be a bit of a cheerleader?

AN speakers start at $600 or so. It's not ridiculous. And if you are objective - look and directly A/B the AN E/LX at $5800 against the DeVore o/96 at $13,000 or say the Harbeth 40.1 at $15,000. Sound is subjective and I like all three and I could live with all three - but there is nothing about the other two that should "cost" more. The AN E uses just as expensive parts quality. My dealer carries all three. So it's not a difficult comparison. Without listening - just looking at the internal parts and the cabinetry - I doubt anyone would walk away thinking one was 1/2 to 1/3 the price. And IF you, like me, walk away feeling the sound is also considerably better then gee you will be a cheerleader because you just listened to a speaker that is just as well made and sounds just as good if not better for 1/2 the money.

There is a reason I am a cheerleader - and that is it - just as good quality sound (IMO better albeit that is subjective) just as well built for less than half the price!

Anyway back to Sugden - These are fine speakers - but I tend to always judge stuff with price factoring into the equation AND what you can sell them for when it comes time to upgrade.

Looking into the Sugden they appear to retail for $5000US and are 90dB sensitive and come with a 2 year warranty. So I offered up for audition a considerably more sensitive speaker that follows the same design approach that is at least $2500 less money. And there is a pretty good chance the AZ Three will sound better as well. I cheer-lead saving money.

If all this were reversed and a Sugden guy came and told me I could get a speaker that is similar in design approach for half the price I would at least want to uncover that rock if possible. It's one of the reasons that for a more than a decade I have been harping on people to listen to the A21a amplifier - there's a reason it has sold for 50 years - it's one of the few SS amps that actually sounds good. And the price has more than doubled since 1994 or so but it still sounds great.

I don't know if the OP has a Sugden amp as well - but there is often the notion of generating a "more than the sum of their parts" magic with keeping the system together - an all Sugden system for example. That should not be discounted. Sugden's logo is apt. "Rescuing Music from Technology.

[a.wayne]

There goes Mike's Bandwidth .....

[Joseph R.]

I too loved all the Peter Snell designs. Heard the A’s at Sound by Singer in NYC and the Snell 1’s at Designatron in Hicksville NY years ago. That is why the AN’s appeal to me. It is hard to like British products when one has to deal with USA customs. I have learned my lesson and will never order direct from England again.

But the trials and tribulations of Snell and Audio Notes should be discussed elsewhere. No disrespect intended. My appointment to hear the Sugden LS21’s has been moved to the beginning of February. I will report my results after that time. Still excited to hear them.

[Joseph R.]

I traveled 346 miles round trip today, to hear the Sugden LS21’s. Sorry to say they are nothing special. I would be glad to give a review if anyone is truly interested.

[Jack]

Joe

Is there a dealer anywhere close to you where you can hear the Reynaud Transmission Line floorstanders?

[Joseph R.]

Jack: No close dealers to me period. I have been traveling a hundred miles or more one way, to find a dealer. I came home from today’s trip a bit reluctant to continue shopping. My Shahinians out-classed the three speakers I auditioned today. Either I must step up my budget or live with what I have. My mix-and-match Shahinians classify as “high end” in my book, so staying with them is not a hardship. So far my search is two years old. Time to give it a rest. I still have an appointment to hear the studio electric loudspeakers. After that I will be “DONE”. Will just enjoy Axpona Chicago this year with zero shopping.

[Jack]

I'm in the same boat as you with dealers as I have to drive at least five hours to get to one with anything I would be interested in. I took a flyer on Reynaud over 15 years ago after Bob's first review of the Twin Mk II and once I was comfortable with the "house" sound signature I have bought the other pairs over the years sight unseen. Granted the first pair was under $500 so not a huge risk. Bob also carries AN which you are familiar with and was a long time owner of Rogers, Spendor and Harbeth so it might be worth a phone call to discuss the different lines.

[Joseph R.]

My experience mimics yours exactly, but with Shahinians. I purchased the Obelisks (my first pair) in 1983 and have never looked back. 34 years later and I am still a proud Shahinian owner. The man had the best ears I have ever met. I am getting the feeling no one else can build a loudspeaker. He used to say “crossover built by ear, not computer”. After so many years, I just thought it was time to get off the Shahinian train, and explore different venues. It turns out it is harder than I thought.

Don’t get me wrong, the Sugdens should be flying out the door at 5 grand a pair. Just that I am way past that state of the art.

As for AN, I have written them off completely due to their pricing policy. This industry is crazy enough without having a $3,750 loudspeaker upgraded to the tune of $40,000 !!! Some of us have to actually pay for our gear (off soapbox).

[AJ Soundfield]

I purchased the Obelisks (my first pair) in 1983 and have never looked back.

For some reason I thought you had bookshelfs, unless you meant the brand.

[Joseph R.]

For some reason I thought you had bookshelfs, unless you meant the brand.

My history with Shahinian started out with Shahinian Obelisks. They were ugraded thoughout many years. After about 15 years, I purchased Hawk bottons (bass modules) and lived with the Obelisks and the Hawk bottoms together. Three years later I sold the Obelisk and purchased Hawk tops. I lived with the complete Hawk ensemble for another 15 years or so. There came a time when I had my fill of omni/poly directional speakers. After all I stared this journey with Bose 901 series II’s.

I asked Dick Shahinian to fabricate a front directional speaker system. He came up with Eagle bass modules he originally manufactured to complement BBC LS3/5A’s. They were a 30 year old design. He upgraded them with new drivers, new passive radiators, new silver wire and updated crossovers. For all intense and purpose they were a new version of an old design. I was then on my own to purchase a pair of LS3/5A’s to complete the pairing. In the meantime Dick Shahinian gave me a pair of Braun mini’s he modified years before. Of course finding tops was easier said then done. Dick Shahinian had a single pair of his Elf models he purposely built as a special order. These speakers were never purchased by the requester, for one reason or another. I snapped them up as quickly as possible. After much tweaking and help from Dick, they made a good match. Later, I purchased the Townshend Maximus supertweeters. That is my current ensemble.

So yes, I do own Shahinian Elf bookshelves. They are used as a module in a four way system. Routinely Dick Shahinian loaned me other mid/tweeter modules for my evaluation. All were good in their own way, but none bested the Elf bookshelves.

From reading my previous posts, looks like I must look deeper into my pocket book to replace these without downgrading. Something (downgrading) I am not willing to do. On the other hand, they have yet to hit the 15 year marker.

Since Dick wanted me to have great speakers, he asked my help in creating prototypes for two new designs. Unfortunately, his health matters stymied this undertaking.

[AJ Soundfield]

My history with Shahinian started out with Shahinian Obelisks.

Those are my only exposure to Shahinian, many moons ago.

So yes, I do own Shahinian Elf bookshelves. They are used as a module in a four way system. Routinely Dick Shahinian loaned me other mid/tweeter modules for my evaluation. All were good in their own way, but none bested the Elf bookshelves.
Since Dick wanted me to have great speakers, he asked my help in creating prototypes for two new designs. Unfortunately, his health matters stymied this undertaking.

Ah, so not my imagination, you do have bookshelves. Are the Elfs "voiced" similarly to the Obelisks despite their different configuration? I've seen spectral measurements of the Obelisks, but not the Elfs.
If you were ever curious, next time you're coming this way, bring an Elf with you.
It would be a learning experience for me also.

cheers,

AJ

[hifinutt]

ashamed to say i live in uk and didn`t even know sugden made loudspeakers !!!

[Joseph R.]

Dear Hifinutt: They make one. Hard to find here in the USA, but available nontheless. For a $5,000 speaker they are respectable. In UK, should be a downright bargain. You would be doing me a big favor, if you seeked them out for a listen. I would like to see if your reaction is similar to mine. I admit I never heard Sugden gear, and my dealer demo’d them with all top of the line Sugden electronics. Maybe my reaction was simply a case of culture shock. Or maybe the Sugden preamp and power amp were not sufficiently broken in, or warmed up. I will entertain any possibility at this point. It is hard for me to believe that a boutique company with such a long standing reputation is hanging their hat on this model. I expected more. I have always been in awe of England’s ability to create great speakers. At best this is a really good midfi loudspeaker. Maybe the USA duty and import charges put this speaker at a price point where it cannot compete. With Brixit going on there, why are’nt prices of British goods tumbling down ?