Subwoofer Enhances Stereo Listening
Welcome to the AudioShark Forums.
Results 1 to 10 of 10
  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    90
    Post Thanks / Like

    Subwoofer Enhances Stereo Listening

    I've previously read an external crossover is required to control both the sub and main speakers to properly integrate low/mid level frequencies. Thus I had been considering buying a JL Audio CR1 crossover and possibly a matching e-sub.


    But last week tried using one channel from my JRDG Corus to the line level input of my Definitive Technology SC8000 sub, setting the crossover point 40 Hz. I had previously only used the sub for movies surround sound, it's located in the rear of my room.


    Since I'm using only the subs internal crossover, full bass is still being passed to the front speakers. I expected to hear bass overhang, but to my surprise there's very little to my ear. The low/mid frequency integration may be better with an external crossover, but this change has made a significant improvement with my stereo listening. Not only am I now hearing tight low level bass with punch, but the soundstage sounds even bigger.


    I'm buying a pair of reasonably priced DH Labs subwoofer cables to feed both line level sub channels from the Corus. Although both Stereo channels are mono and contain the same frequency output, I've read using both channels provides more gain.

    I'm planning on using the existing single cable from the A/V receiver LFE output to the sub LFE input for movies.
    ________________________________
    Len
    Acoustic Frontiers Room Design, Raidho D3 speakers; Jeff Rowland Corus preamp & 625 amp; EMM Labs XDS1 v2 CD/SACD player; Solidtech ROS; Nordost cabling, Ti Pulsar Points, QB4 power distributor; Quantum QX4 power conditioner; Ultrasonic LED shelving
    http://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5013

  2. Likes Odyssey, cmarin liked this post
  3. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Tallahassee, Florida
    Posts
    1,824
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Subwoofer Enhances Stereo Listening

    The need for separate external crossovers to integrate subs with "full range" speakers is greatly over exaggerated and an idea pushed the most often by JL. There are many subs that perform just as well using their own crossovers for a lot less money as you found out. A pair of reasonably price subs by companies like REL, Rythmik, Sumiko and others will do wonders for the sound of your music system with proper setup.
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon Dl-301 Mk II, Vista Audio Phono 2, Marantz HD-CD1, Lumin D1 w/Sbooster, PS Audio DirectStream DAC w/Bridge II, BHK Preamp and 250 amp, Nola KO's, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Cables- Triode Wire Labs, Blue Circle PLC FX-2 with BC-62 PC, PI Audio Uberbuss

    Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, Auralic Aries, W4S Recovery with iPower, Nuprime DAC-10, Nuprime ST-10, Spatial Audio Triode Master, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Wireworld SC & IC's, Cullen Cable PC's, SurgeX SA-1810

  4. #3
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    29
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Subwoofer Enhances Stereo Listening

    Two new REL S3s here, no external crossover, and very good integration to my ear. The RELs have been my only subs and they were super easy to integrate - Iím still dialing them in, but they sound great and, as you mention, the imaging enhancement is out of this world.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Amplification: Accuphase A200 (2)//C3800//C37
    Tuner: MagnumDynalab 108T/SE
    Table/Cart: ClearAudio Innovation // Lyra Kleos
    Speakers: TAD CR-1, REL S/3 SHO
    DAC/Spinner: PSAudio DirectStream DAC/ Memory Player
    Silenzio Music Server
    Verastarr Cables
    AudioDesk Systeme RCM

  5. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Bay Area
    Posts
    429
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Subwoofer Enhances Stereo Listening

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    The need for separate external crossovers to integrate subs with "full range" speakers is greatly over exaggerated and an idea pushed the most often by JL. There are many subs that perform just as well using their own crossovers for a lot less money as you found out. A pair of reasonably price subs by companies like REL, Rythmik, Sumiko and others will do wonders for the sound of your music system with proper setup.
    Hi Jack, any idea how the Sumiko compares to the REL ? I heard the guys at Sumiko are formerly from REL and seems like they have similar approach to REL as well, speakon connectors & controls. Wondering if a pair of Sumiko S.10 would be a decent competitor to the REL S5.

  6. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Tallahassee, Florida
    Posts
    1,824
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Subwoofer Enhances Stereo Listening

    Dev

    I don't know anything for sure, but other than packaging and slight cosmetics they do appear to be the same basic product. I suspect if he would chime in that Bill/Metaphacts would know the answer to that. Another alternative that I am completely satisfied with are the Rythmik subs built in Austin, Texas. In fact I am going to order a second pair tomorrow to use with the Spatial Triode Masters. I use the pair in the Main system connected speaker level as after over 15 years with the Vandersteen subs that is what I am used to and comfortable with. I tried it both ways and found the integration better speaker level. The BHK amp has the second pair of binding posts which makes it a snap. If you want them to match your AZ'a you can order them from Jim Salk and he will build the cabinets to match your mains.
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon Dl-301 Mk II, Vista Audio Phono 2, Marantz HD-CD1, Lumin D1 w/Sbooster, PS Audio DirectStream DAC w/Bridge II, BHK Preamp and 250 amp, Nola KO's, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Cables- Triode Wire Labs, Blue Circle PLC FX-2 with BC-62 PC, PI Audio Uberbuss

    Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, Auralic Aries, W4S Recovery with iPower, Nuprime DAC-10, Nuprime ST-10, Spatial Audio Triode Master, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Wireworld SC & IC's, Cullen Cable PC's, SurgeX SA-1810

  7. Thanks Devg thanked for this post
  8. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Bay Area
    Posts
    429
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Subwoofer Enhances Stereo Listening

    I don't know much about the integration but reviews seem to indicate REL's speaker level integration are very easy to integrate with full range mains which is why I was more inclined towards REL/Sumiko subs.

  9. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Tallahassee, Florida
    Posts
    1,824
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Subwoofer Enhances Stereo Listening

    Dev

    Speaker level integration has been around for years and is in fact the only way you have been able to integrate Vandersteen subs since their inception. As subs were not Richards main business he never pushed it while REL did. They all will require you to have a test disc or file and either a dedicated SPL meter or a phone app. Not hard to do with any quality sub with speaker level inputs. Also something to consider is that some of the sub amps have issues with fully balanced amp and/or Class D amps using speaker level. If you are more comfortable with REL/Sumiko then go for it. I after researching it was more comfortable dealing with Brian.
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon Dl-301 Mk II, Vista Audio Phono 2, Marantz HD-CD1, Lumin D1 w/Sbooster, PS Audio DirectStream DAC w/Bridge II, BHK Preamp and 250 amp, Nola KO's, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Cables- Triode Wire Labs, Blue Circle PLC FX-2 with BC-62 PC, PI Audio Uberbuss

    Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, Auralic Aries, W4S Recovery with iPower, Nuprime DAC-10, Nuprime ST-10, Spatial Audio Triode Master, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Wireworld SC & IC's, Cullen Cable PC's, SurgeX SA-1810

  10. #8
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    27
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Subwoofer Enhances Stereo Listening

    Len,

    I think you have discovered what plenty of folks spend their audio lives without discovering....that most systems benefit from a well integrated sub-woofer. I use a B&W DB1 in my system with Revel Salon2's which are run full range. I know I am supposed to hear all sorts of problems but I simply don't. I turn if off from time to time so I can remember what it sounds like without it.....about 10 seconds is enough!

    I have a friend who went through the whole deal with dual JL subs and the CR1 crossover etc. and said he thought it was a total waste in his system. I understand all the principles behind a crossover and dual subs, and I'd love to try that setup in my system, but I am skeptical whether it would be worth the extra expense and complication.

    One other thing you should remember.....with your Corus there is the ability to control the different outputs from the remote. You can dial the volume on your sub(s) up and down at will without affecting the output going to your amp.

  11. Likes the professor liked this post
  12. #9
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    6
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Subwoofer Enhances Stereo Listening

    Ah marketing gotta love it. Years ago speaker level inputs were the norm and then we were all told that it's the worst thing ever. Then REL comes along and sells everyone speaker level like they invented it. Both methods work fine. The same applies to the external crossover. Sure theoretically you would want a clean break at a specific frequency but a properly adjusted sloping crossover works just fine.

  13. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Winchester UK
    Posts
    31
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Subwoofer Enhances Stereo Listening

    Quote Originally Posted by blownsi View Post
    Ah marketing gotta love it. Years ago speaker level inputs were the norm and then we were all told that it's the worst thing ever. Then REL comes along and sells everyone speaker level like they invented it. Both methods work fine. The same applies to the external crossover. Sure theoretically you would want a clean break at a specific frequency but a properly adjusted sloping crossover works just fine.
    I'm not sure which subwoofer manufacturer first used speaker (high) level connection from the power amp to the sub, but my first REL Stadium subwoofer, purchased in 1992, advocated this as the preferred method of connection over line level, due to the bass signature of the rest of the system being applied to the subwoofer.