Subwoofer Enhances Stereo Listening

[LenWhite]

I've previously read an external crossover is required to control both the sub and main speakers to properly integrate low/mid level frequencies. Thus I had been considering buying a JL Audio CR1 crossover and possibly a matching e-sub.


But last week tried using one channel from my JRDG Corus to the line level input of my Definitive Technology SC8000 sub, setting the crossover point 40 Hz. I had previously only used the sub for movies surround sound, it's located in the rear of my room.


Since I'm using only the subs internal crossover, full bass is still being passed to the front speakers. I expected to hear bass overhang, but to my surprise there's very little to my ear. The low/mid frequency integration may be better with an external crossover, but this change has made a significant improvement with my stereo listening. Not only am I now hearing tight low level bass with punch, but the soundstage sounds even bigger.


I'm buying a pair of reasonably priced DH Labs subwoofer cables to feed both line level sub channels from the Corus. Although both Stereo channels are mono and contain the same frequency output, I've read using both channels provides more gain.

I'm planning on using the existing single cable from the A/V receiver LFE output to the sub LFE input for movies.

[Jack]

The need for separate external crossovers to integrate subs with "full range" speakers is greatly over exaggerated and an idea pushed the most often by JL. There are many subs that perform just as well using their own crossovers for a lot less money as you found out. A pair of reasonably price subs by companies like REL, Rythmik, Sumiko and others will do wonders for the sound of your music system with proper setup.

[Hounddog]

Two new REL S3s here, no external crossover, and very good integration to my ear. The RELs have been my only subs and they were super easy to integrate - I’m still dialing them in, but they sound great and, as you mention, the imaging enhancement is out of this world.


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[Devg]

The need for separate external crossovers to integrate subs with "full range" speakers is greatly over exaggerated and an idea pushed the most often by JL. There are many subs that perform just as well using their own crossovers for a lot less money as you found out. A pair of reasonably price subs by companies like REL, Rythmik, Sumiko and others will do wonders for the sound of your music system with proper setup.

Hi Jack, any idea how the Sumiko compares to the REL ? I heard the guys at Sumiko are formerly from REL and seems like they have similar approach to REL as well, speakon connectors & controls. Wondering if a pair of Sumiko S.10 would be a decent competitor to the REL S5.

[Jack]

Dev

I don't know anything for sure, but other than packaging and slight cosmetics they do appear to be the same basic product. I suspect if he would chime in that Bill/Metaphacts would know the answer to that. Another alternative that I am completely satisfied with are the Rythmik subs built in Austin, Texas. In fact I am going to order a second pair tomorrow to use with the Spatial Triode Masters. I use the pair in the Main system connected speaker level as after over 15 years with the Vandersteen subs that is what I am used to and comfortable with. I tried it both ways and found the integration better speaker level. The BHK amp has the second pair of binding posts which makes it a snap. If you want them to match your AZ'a you can order them from Jim Salk and he will build the cabinets to match your mains.

[Devg]

I don't know much about the integration but reviews seem to indicate REL's speaker level integration are very easy to integrate with full range mains which is why I was more inclined towards REL/Sumiko subs.

[Jack]

Dev

Speaker level integration has been around for years and is in fact the only way you have been able to integrate Vandersteen subs since their inception. As subs were not Richards main business he never pushed it while REL did. They all will require you to have a test disc or file and either a dedicated SPL meter or a phone app. Not hard to do with any quality sub with speaker level inputs. Also something to consider is that some of the sub amps have issues with fully balanced amp and/or Class D amps using speaker level. If you are more comfortable with REL/Sumiko then go for it. I after researching it was more comfortable dealing with Brian.

[tdimler]

Len,

I think you have discovered what plenty of folks spend their audio lives without discovering....that most systems benefit from a well integrated sub-woofer. I use a B&W DB1 in my system with Revel Salon2's which are run full range. I know I am supposed to hear all sorts of problems but I simply don't. I turn if off from time to time so I can remember what it sounds like without it.....about 10 seconds is enough!

I have a friend who went through the whole deal with dual JL subs and the CR1 crossover etc. and said he thought it was a total waste in his system. I understand all the principles behind a crossover and dual subs, and I'd love to try that setup in my system, but I am skeptical whether it would be worth the extra expense and complication.

One other thing you should remember.....with your Corus there is the ability to control the different outputs from the remote. You can dial the volume on your sub(s) up and down at will without affecting the output going to your amp.

[blownsi]

Ah marketing gotta love it. Years ago speaker level inputs were the norm and then we were all told that it's the worst thing ever. Then REL comes along and sells everyone speaker level like they invented it. Both methods work fine. The same applies to the external crossover. Sure theoretically you would want a clean break at a specific frequency but a properly adjusted sloping crossover works just fine.

[XCop5089]

Ah marketing gotta love it. Years ago speaker level inputs were the norm and then we were all told that it's the worst thing ever. Then REL comes along and sells everyone speaker level like they invented it. Both methods work fine. The same applies to the external crossover. Sure theoretically you would want a clean break at a specific frequency but a properly adjusted sloping crossover works just fine.

I'm not sure which subwoofer manufacturer first used speaker (high) level connection from the power amp to the sub, but my first REL Stadium subwoofer, purchased in 1992, advocated this as the preferred method of connection over line level, due to the bass signature of the rest of the system being applied to the subwoofer.

[Randy Myers]

I just added the KEF R-400b subwoofer to my KEF floor standing speakers. It uses the trickle down technology from their Blade series of having two drivers mounted back to back and cancelling cabinet vibration. It is the first time that I feel a sub actually improved both the musicality and low end in my system. Very happy with it so far, and it is still breaking in.

[Neekomax]

Subwoofer(s) enhance stereo listening? I sure think so.

As far as crossovers go, I've played with high pass/low pass through speaker level connections with three subs total (crossing at around 55 Hz, high passing my little KEF Q100s there as well). It worked ok.

Right now though I'm getting the best sound I've had all year running my Soundfield Audio Monitor 1s full range and a simple line out connection to a Martin Logan Grotto 10" sealed servo sub, low passed at 65 Hz, the whole system optimized with a DSpeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core processor.

Thanks to their long throw 8" powered woofers (300 watts BASH amps), the SAM 1 speakers play down to about 30 Hz in my room, and the ML sub does maybe a bit lower. I have tight, very full, and most all ARTICULATE bass, thanks to three distributed bass sources, which are then corrected by DSP.

Working for me. Although a cardioid bass solution is a possibility in the future, to further refine the in-room bass response.

[joeinid]

Welcome to the forum, thank you so much for joining.

[Spock]

Since I'm using only the subs internal crossover, full bass is still being passed to the front speakers. I expected to hear bass overhang, but to my surprise there's very little to my ear. … this change has made a significant improvement with my stereo listening. Not only am I now hearing tight low level bass with punch, but the soundstage sounds even bigger.

Right!

Len,
I think you have discovered what plenty of folks spend their audio lives without discovering....that most systems benefit from a well integrated sub-woofer. I use a B&W DB1 in my system with Revel Salon2's which are run full range. I know I am supposed to hear all sorts of problems but I simply don't. I turn if off from time to time so I can remember what it sounds like without it.....about 10 seconds is enough!

Right

Thanks to this topic I made some experiences with my sub. All I can say is everything you said is true. Amazing.
And, if you have only one sub, there is only one place to put it.
See and listen down below

[Neekomax]

Spock, is that a Martin Logan sub you have?

[Spock]

Yes it is.
A ML Dynamo