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  1. #1
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    Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    A (very kind) friend loaned me his D'Agostino S250 to try out. We had a good time listening today.

    This is one terrific amp. Very clean sound. Sweet. Lots of micro detail. No grain at all.














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  2. #2
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Nice Mike!

    Sure can't mistake that amp for anything but a D'Ag.

    What kind of amp stand is that?
    Rance


    Synology DS411+II | GigaFOILv4 + Keces P3 Power Supply | Shunyata Alpha Ethernet | Lumin S1 | VAC Master Line Stage | VAC Signature 200 iQ amps | Kharma Elegance dB11-S | SVS PC-4000 subs x 2 | Shunyata 6000/T v2 | Kharma Elegance signal cables| Luminous Audio Technology power cables | Isoacoustics OREA vibration isolators | Solid Tech racks | Vicoustic room treatments | Acoustic Sciences Corporation IsoWall + IsoCeiling construction

  3. #3
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Quote Originally Posted by rrwmd View Post
    Nice Mike!

    Sure can't mistake that amp for anything but a D'Ag.

    What kind of amp stands are those?
    That's for sure. Quadraspire amp stand.


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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  4. #4
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    They are some of the most artistic gorgeous looking amps in existence for me.
    Compare it well for me to the Pass 350 .8 ya got there and then to the Diablo!
    (Since my speakers are somewhere between California and Florida)
    Larry
    Larry


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  5. #5
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    I chose Momentum because of the sound quality and current capability. The appearance wasn’t a factor for me, although I do appreciate the build quality.
    I’ve heard Dan tell his story of the development of the first Momentum amplifier. There was a very long period of voicing before he came upon the sound you hear today.
    Speakers: Magico M3 | Amplification: D’Agostino Momentum Integrated | Analog: TechDas AirForce Two/SAT/Audio Technica MC2022/Graham Phantom Elite/Ortofon MC A Mono/D’Agostino Momentum Phono | Signal Cables: Synergistic Research Galileo | Power Conditioner: Shunyata Everest | Power Cables: Shunyata Omega/Sigma | Grounding: Altaira Hub/Omega Cables | Isolation Platforms: HRS M3X w/ Vortex | Stands: Adona GXT | Acoustic Treatments: RPG

  6. #6
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Welcome to the forum, thank you for joining. Wonderful system you have.
    Fleetwood Deville by Oswald Mills Audio, Vienna Acoustics Haydn Jubilee, Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.

    Job INTegrated. Luxman L-595aSE

    NAD C 658 streamer.

    First Watt SIT-3, Job 250 Monos, NuForce STA200, AkitikA GT-102 amp, ASL Wave monos, Dennis Had 45 monos. Absolute Audio Labs PCF 25 amp (improved First Watt F7 super clone)

    Topping D90, RME Audio ADI-2 DAC FS, ModWright Ultimate Sony XA-5400ES.

    Burmester 948, McIntosh MCLK12, Kimber Kable, Siltech, Cardas, Avanti Audio cables.

  7. #7
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Quote Originally Posted by Dguitarnut View Post
    They are some of the most artistic gorgeous looking amps in existence for me.
    Compare it well for me to the Pass 350 .8 ya got there and then to the Diablo!
    (Since my speakers are somewhere between California and Florida)
    Larry
    I would love to hear Mike’s (and anyone else’s) thoughts as to how this Dag compares to the Pass 350.8 and also the Gryphon Diablo 300 (noting that the Gryphon is integrated so may not be fair to compare to the Dag as it is a power amp), taking into account the different price points.

  8. #8
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    That's a great looking amp!
    _______________

    Mike

    Amplification: MBL 6010D, MBL 9008A Monos
    Analog: Kuzma R, Kuzma 4Point (11”), MSL Ultra Eminent EX
    Phono Pre: Pass XP-27
    Digital: Esoteric N01XD Esoteric K05
    Speakers: MBL 101E MKII
    Subwoofers: REL Carbon Specials
    Conditioner: Shunyata Triton 3
    Power Cables: Shunyata Sigma 1 & 2, Alpha 2, Delta and Venom
    ICs and SCs: Wireworld Platinum 8
    Rack: Artesania Exoteryc

  9. #9
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Everyone’s taste is of course different but IMHO having seen the Dags (both Momentum and Progression) I think they are the most aesthetically beautiful amps I have seen. What I am curious about is how much of the price is attributable to this aspect of the design and how much is due to quality... That comment may open a can of worms!

  10. #10
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Nawww......I’m am a Pass-afis ........staring down the Diablo but at the momentum looking looking at a Michaelangelo.
    ......Mike is so PC lol
    Larry
    Larry


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  11. #11
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Sweet!
    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R w/4point 11 arm | Kuzma 50 Cartridge
    Source Digital: Aurender N10 | Brinkmann Nyquist MK II
    Amplification: Dan D’Agostino Momentum HD and M400’s | Boulder 508
    Speakers: Wilson Alexias
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    Power and Isolation: Audio-Ultra Home & Room Power Foundation Performance Package with StromTank S1000 | HRS









  12. #12
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Nice Mike! Are you feeding it from a REF10? At RMAF, Peter McGrath recommended the Momentum whan I asked what SS amp I might consider should I come to replace my REF75.

  13. #13

    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    I too had the pleasure of trying this great amp in my system. Top to bottom it was a winner and GORGEOUS. It was my first listen to solid state in close to 4+ years since I owned a Constellation Stereo Centaur which I owned for my Magico Q1 system. Those who have read my posts, will know I didn't like the Constellation, either with Q1 or with my Nolas. I sold that system almost as quickly as I got it. I decided on tubes and never looked back.

    A couple of months ago my buddy brings over a D'Ag S250 and I was literally blown away as to how good and how far solid state has come to "almost" doing what tubes do so well why enhancing the whole sound spectrum with faster, more detail soundstage. I still don't think the S250 did what my ARC does with midrange liquidity, but it was close enough.

    It should be noted that I am driving my amp directly via the pre stage of the MSB Select II.

    However yesterday, I had another treat to try a CH Precision M1. Just when I thought it couldn't get better, G-d literally came to my listening room. I was not expecting to hear what I heard. Plus this amazing amp, running in stereo mode, has incredible flexibility for those driving it direct via the MSB Select II or any other DAC for that matter as it has adjustable gain.

    Solid state has come a very long way. My Nola Concert Grands are not supposed to be a "solid state speaker" but I think its time Carl Marchisotto, try some of these amazing solid state amps. If I can swing it, that M1 ain't leaving my room.

  14. #14

    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Many thanks for sharing your thoughts. Would it be possible for you to expand on the differences you heard between the DAG S250 and the CH Precision M1 and between the M1 and your ARC? Would appreciate any feedback you can provide. Many thanks and hope you find a way to keep the M1.

  15. #15

    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    I would concur Priaptor, For my part It came down to a head to head between ARC Ref250se and the D'Ag 250. I thought the D'Ag was fabulous and I was struck as much by the similarities as opposed to dissimilarities.
    It was a game of sonic swings and roundabouts and I could have lived happily with either, however a couple of points just edged the Valve amplifier past the SS, in the all important to me, midrange with Vocals and String instruments producing a little more liquidity and tonal density.

  16. #16
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    Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    I still have the S250 D'Ag in the store and have spent many hours listening to it. It's an excellent amp. Very clean sounding. I've owned the ARC 250's and LOVED them and I auditioned CH extensively before deciding against it (very dry sounding to my ears, not Audionet dry, but too dry for me). I like a much more liquid sound. Pass, Gryphon, D'Ag are all there in spades for SS.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
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  17. #17

    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Quote Originally Posted by ashandger View Post
    Many thanks for sharing your thoughts. Would it be possible for you to expand on the differences you heard between the DAG S250 and the CH Precision M1 and between the M1 and your ARC? Would appreciate any feedback you can provide. Many thanks and hope you find a way to keep the M1.
    I hate to do that because my comments might offend. I really have no dog in this fight BUT the M1 is the best amp I have ever heard, period, in my system and this after only 12 hours of burn in. Tonight's listen will give me more insight after close to 36 hours burn in. I need to also stress that I am using an almost all Gobel cable system, still waiting for the XLR and two power cords coming this week, and Gobel and Ch Precision show together and/or work together so I have to assume these great engineers have engineered their equipment for some harmony and/or synergy for each other; assuming no knowledge as these products are new to me.

    I have owned ARC REF 250, 150, 75 and now what I consider the best amp they have ever made, the GS150. Of course ARC stuff is speaker dependent so what I find the "best" is subject to variability based on speaker load. When I had my Nola Baby Grand, the REF250 were far and away better than the Ref150, however, when I got the BIG guys, the Nola Concert Grands, the REF75 proved to be better than the REF250 until the GS150 came along, which was an incredible match.

    Having said all of that, as I was going through my upgrade to the Nola Concert Grands, I also had purchase the Magico Q1 and Constellation Centaur Stereo amp. The system was "good" just not my taste and I sold it after living with it for three months. I only bring it up because I had the ability to try the Centaur on my Nolas and it sounded terrible. I just shook my head and said, solid state, is not ready yet. This despite the accolades being expressed on this amp.

    Well fast forward 4 years and we have been trying a variety of solid state amps in system and my delusional beliefs about tubes are now eradicated.

    The liquidity surrounding the midrange and vocals with the GS150 sets my standard. At reasonable listening levels, this amp is articulate as fast as one can reasonably expect from tubes and just a pleasure to listen to. As with tubes in general and no exception here, as one explores the lower octaves, not that the music becomes muddy but loses some of its cohesiveness which interferes with the rest of the spectrum of the output. Imaging is wonderful, space and 3 dimensional exceptional, and what these speakers do best.

    Enter the S250 and I was immediately stunned. I wasn't expecting what I heard. I never heard more controlled tighter bass (if you look at the speakers you will see its subs built in and understand how much air they can move), faster transients and absolutely gorgeous upper end and wonderful image and sound stage even wider than my GS150. I wasn't quite as thrilled with it as the GS150 with strings and vocals, losing just a tad of air compared to the GS150 but it did everything else so well I said, I could easily live with the minor differences in what the GS150 does to get the incredible fullness the S250s add. So for me, if you ask, even though I have been a tube guy for the last 5 years, based on my experience I could and would easily recommend the S250 over tubes, again, system synergy is a caveat.

    Out went the S250 and back in went the GS150. Yesterday, in came the CH Precision M1. Good luck moving that thing. This amp, IMO, is just on another playing field. I really wasn't expecting what I heard and after only 12 hours. I will obviously report back more but I am in heaven. I have never experienced these speakers as I am now. Not only does it do everything my ARC gear does, but does it better. From top to bottom incredibly transparency with an air that is surreal. My wife who could care less about this hobby, loved the look of the D'Ag but I had her listen to a Bach Cello piece by Camden Shaw, an incredible recording by the way and even she was blown away and couldn't believe what she was hearing. I can't say enough about this amp and I am in the beginning phases of my evaluation but after hearing it, I can say, there is no going back. My front end, the MSB Select II is driving it using its pre stage so the flexibility of this amp to on the fly control gain and feeback is wonderful. Timbre is as accurate as I have ever heard from any system. Spatial cues are the best I have heard, PERIOD.

    I will give you more followup with time. My philosophy is that one must live with a product not just "hear it" in order to understand it and whether it is for you or not. A fly by does no justice other than a taste and often exposes one to "different" which is often equated to better until of course you get a chance to live with a piece.

    Personally, from the ARC line, I think if your speaker is well suited power wise, the GS150 is their best amp and in my opinion, may be their best product ever. I have owned the REF10 as well, which is a close second for me as "best ARC product of all time". I should also mention that I have been in this game since the early 80s. However, the D'Ag is, with some caveats, a step up from the ARC amps I mention. If you are looking for that amazing mid range liquidity of the GS150 and smooth/effortless/silky vocals the D'Ag falls just a little short of the GS150 while trouncing it elsewhere. The M1 is a different league. I have no issue declaring that after just 12 hours.

    Just a funny anecdote. My buddy dropped off a GS150 years ago to "burn in" until his store was ready for it and I called him up and said, find another it ain't leaving. Well I have a feeling that might happen with this as well. I can't say that for the D'Ag. That pretty much gives you my initial opinion regarding the comparisons. To be honest, I am not even sure where the prices of the D'ag and M1 lie other than they are "more expensive" than the ARC.

    More to come.

  18. #18

    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Quote Originally Posted by Priaptor View Post
    I hate to do that because my comments might offend. I really have no dog in this fight BUT the M1 is the best amp I have ever heard, period, in my system and this after only 12 hours of burn in. Tonight's listen will give me more insight after close to 36 hours burn in. I need to also stress that I am using an almost all Gobel cable system, still waiting for the XLR and two power cords coming this week, and Gobel and Ch Precision show together and/or work together so I have to assume these great engineers have engineered their equipment for some harmony and/or synergy for each other; assuming no knowledge as these products are new to me.

    I have owned ARC REF 250, 150, 75 and now what I consider the best amp they have ever made, the GS150. Of course ARC stuff is speaker dependent so what I find the "best" is subject to variability based on speaker load. When I had my Nola Baby Grand, the REF250 were far and away better than the Ref150, however, when I got the BIG guys, the Nola Concert Grands, the REF75 proved to be better than the REF250 until the GS150 came along, which was an incredible match.

    Having said all of that, as I was going through my upgrade to the Nola Concert Grands, I also had purchase the Magico Q1 and Constellation Centaur Stereo amp. The system was "good" just not my taste and I sold it after living with it for three months. I only bring it up because I had the ability to try the Centaur on my Nolas and it sounded terrible. I just shook my head and said, solid state, is not ready yet. This despite the accolades being expressed on this amp.

    Well fast forward 4 years and we have been trying a variety of solid state amps in system and my delusional beliefs about tubes are now eradicated.

    The liquidity surrounding the midrange and vocals with the GS150 sets my standard. At reasonable listening levels, this amp is articulate as fast as one can reasonably expect from tubes and just a pleasure to listen to. As with tubes in general and no exception here, as one explores the lower octaves, not that the music becomes muddy but loses some of its cohesiveness which interferes with the rest of the spectrum of the output. Imaging is wonderful, space and 3 dimensional exceptional, and what these speakers do best.

    Enter the S250 and I was immediately stunned. I wasn't expecting what I heard. I never heard more controlled tighter bass (if you look at the speakers you will see its subs built in and understand how much air they can move), faster transients and absolutely gorgeous upper end and wonderful image and sound stage even wider than my GS150. I wasn't quite as thrilled with it as the GS150 with strings and vocals, losing just a tad of air compared to the GS150 but it did everything else so well I said, I could easily live with the minor differences in what the GS150 does to get the incredible fullness the S250s add. So for me, if you ask, even though I have been a tube guy for the last 5 years, based on my experience I could and would easily recommend the S250 over tubes, again, system synergy is a caveat.

    Out went the S250 and back in went the GS150. Yesterday, in came the CH Precision M1. Good luck moving that thing. This amp, IMO, is just on another playing field. I really wasn't expecting what I heard and after only 12 hours. I will obviously report back more but I am in heaven. I have never experienced these speakers as I am now. Not only does it do everything my ARC gear does, but does it better. From top to bottom incredibly transparency with an air that is surreal. My wife who could care less about this hobby, loved the look of the D'Ag but I had her listen to a Bach Cello piece by Camden Shaw, an incredible recording by the way and even she was blown away and couldn't believe what she was hearing. I can't say enough about this amp and I am in the beginning phases of my evaluation but after hearing it, I can say, there is no going back. My front end, the MSB Select II is driving it using its pre stage so the flexibility of this amp to on the fly control gain and feeback is wonderful. Timbre is as accurate as I have ever heard from any system. Spatial cues are the best I have heard, PERIOD.

    I will give you more followup with time. My philosophy is that one must live with a product not just "hear it" in order to understand it and whether it is for you or not. A fly by does no justice other than a taste and often exposes one to "different" which is often equated to better until of course you get a chance to live with a piece.

    Personally, from the ARC line, I think if your speaker is well suited power wise, the GS150 is their best amp and in my opinion, may be their best product ever. I have owned the REF10 as well, which is a close second for me as "best ARC product of all time". I should also mention that I have been in this game since the early 80s. However, the D'Ag is, with some caveats, a step up from the ARC amps I mention. If you are looking for that amazing mid range liquidity of the GS150 and smooth/effortless/silky vocals the D'Ag falls just a little short of the GS150 while trouncing it elsewhere. The M1 is a different league. I have no issue declaring that after just 12 hours.

    Just a funny anecdote. My buddy dropped off a GS150 years ago to "burn in" until his store was ready for it and I called him up and said, find another it ain't leaving. Well I have a feeling that might happen with this as well. I can't say that for the D'Ag. That pretty much gives you my initial opinion regarding the comparisons. To be honest, I am not even sure where the prices of the D'ag and M1 lie other than they are "more expensive" than the ARC.

    More to come.
    Hello Priaptor, many thanks for taking the time to provide such detailed and informative feedback....much appreciated. M1 must be rather special indeed. Look forward to further updates from you and also your impressions on the Goebel cables which seem to be a great match with M1. Have fun and thanks again.

  19. #19

    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Quote Originally Posted by ashandger View Post
    Hello Priaptor, many thanks for taking the time to provide such detailed and informative feedback....much appreciated. M1 must be rather special indeed. Look forward to further updates from you and also your impressions on the Goebel cables which seem to be a great match with M1. Have fun and thanks again.
    Will definitely update. I have a pair of XLR coming for the MSB-->M1 and two more power cords a 20 amp and 15 amp for the M1 coming this week to have an all Gobel cable system to go with the M1. The M1 has been "burning in" all night and steady at 53 degrees Celsius.

  20. #20
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Are we comparing the Momentum stereo to the CH 95K mono’s?
    Larry
    Larry


    Lumin U1
    Chord Dave Dac
    Vac Master Preamp
    Vac 200IQ Amp
    Magico S3 Mk2 in Mcast Pewter
    Denali 6000S
    Ansuz and MIT cabling
    Timbernation walnut racks

  21. #21
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Priaptor -

    Appreciate observations and commentary. As an owner of a DAG S-250, I agree this amp is absolutely wonderful and musical. I would also agree in that the ARC GS-150 is a superb amp. I have not heard the CH Precision M1 in a controlled setting but it is a terrific amp. A good friend has it and swears by it.

    At the end of the day, all three are superb amps at different price points. Comes down to personal preference and related system components.

    Enjoy the music!

  22. #22
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    As a past owner of Nola speakers and someone who added his first solid-state amplification into his system when I bought my D’Agostino, I second your opinion that the best solid-state has reached a point where it can be a serious contender with the best tubes.

    CH Precision seems to be the no-holds-barred technology leader in electronics these days, perhaps somewhat similar to Magico’s position in their loudspeaker domain. (I hope that suggestion doesn’t provoke a storm of controversy ... :-)
    Speakers: Magico M3 | Amplification: D’Agostino Momentum Integrated | Analog: TechDas AirForce Two/SAT/Audio Technica MC2022/Graham Phantom Elite/Ortofon MC A Mono/D’Agostino Momentum Phono | Signal Cables: Synergistic Research Galileo | Power Conditioner: Shunyata Everest | Power Cables: Shunyata Omega/Sigma | Grounding: Altaira Hub/Omega Cables | Isolation Platforms: HRS M3X w/ Vortex | Stands: Adona GXT | Acoustic Treatments: RPG

  23. #23
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Quote Originally Posted by Dguitarnut View Post
    Are we comparing the Momentum stereo to the CH 95K mono’s?
    Larry
    No we have listened to the Momentum S-250 stereo and the CH Precision M-1 stereo.

  24. #24

    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Quote Originally Posted by mmaciag View Post
    As a past owner of Nola speakers and someone who added his first solid-state amplification into his system when I bought my D’Agostino, I second your opinion that the best solid-state has reached a point where it can be a serious contender with the best tubes.

    CH Precision seems to be the no-holds-barred technology leader in electronics these days, perhaps somewhat similar to Magico’s position in their loudspeaker domain. (I hope that suggestion doesn’t provoke a storm of controversy ... :-)
    It is definitely, IMHO, a "no holds barred" technology. Truly astounded at how well this amp sounds. Truly NEVER expected to hear this kind of transformation in my system. Carl NEEDS to hear solid state with his speakers. He purposely uses the lightest weight magnets for his drivers so it would be logical that his speakers would benefit from solid state.

    Also the synergy between the CH Precision and the Gobel cables are amazing. I was already extremely impressed with what these cables do, really looking forward to hearing the XLR from MSB to CH and two Gobel PC from the amp to complete the system. I am assuming Oliver Gobel uses this combination for a reason and now I understand.

    No controversy. As I have said many many times, and as De Niro said in Heat, never get attached to something you can't walk away from in 30 seconds. I have no issue expressing my opinions as to what works in my system and in terms of what I hear. For me, the combination of these speakers, MSB Select II DAC, CH-Precision and Gobel cables is a transition to a whole different level. Just before Harry Pearson (a man of controversy in the high end but someone whose opinion I could always trust) passed away, he praised the Nola Concert Grands as the best speakers he has ever heard, those he heard in his room being driven by a REF75 I think with Nordost Odin (I as II hadn't yet been released). I wish he could have heard them the way I am hearing them now.

  25. #25
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Quote Originally Posted by Priaptor View Post
    It is definitely, IMHO, a "no holds barred" technology. Truly astounded at how well this amp sounds. Truly NEVER expected to hear this kind of transformation in my system. Carl NEEDS to hear solid state with his speakers. He purposely uses the lightest weight magnets for his drivers so it would be logical that his speakers would benefit from solid state.

    Also the synergy between the CH Precision and the Gobel cables are amazing. I was already extremely impressed with what these cables do, really looking forward to hearing the XLR from MSB to CH and two Gobel PC from the amp to complete the system. I am assuming Oliver Gobel uses this combination for a reason and now I understand.

    No controversy. As I have said many many times, and as De Niro said in Heat, never get attached to something you can't walk away from in 30 seconds. I have no issue expressing my opinions as to what works in my system and in terms of what I hear. For me, the combination of these speakers, MSB Select II DAC, CH-Precision and Gobel cables is a transition to a whole different level. Just before Harry Pearson (a man of controversy in the high end but someone whose opinion I could always trust) passed away, he praised the Nola Concert Grands as the best speakers he has ever heard, those he heard in his room being driven by a REF75 I think with Nordost Odin (I as II hadn't yet been released). I wish he could have heard them the way I am hearing them now.
    What we listened to last evening was nothing short of amazing. The M-1 has totally changed my thought process about SS amplifiers. The combination of the M-1 with all the cables, the MSB- select2, your speakers and the room was pure Magic. Five hours of sitting listening to music without speaker says it all.
    I love the album Anders Osborne " Coming Down/" I have suggested it to many of my friends and fellow music lovers. I always thought it was a good sounding disc but never would go as far as to say it was a great one until last night. He was in the room with us!
    if you don't know this man he is Swedish by birth but it from New Orleans. He is a blues/rock/folk singer songwriter who writes of his life and struggles. If you need a comparison he is like Van Morrison/Dr. John with a dash of Leon Russel. He is raw and soulful and you can feel his pain and joy. It is one of my favorite albums of all time and I never heard it sound like it did last night.
    I certainly don't want to start an issue but someone here said this amp is dry. I don't get that at all . The amp is a beast, it sounds unlimited in all areas. It plays small, large , simple , complex without ever a hint of distress.
    As I said it has changed my thoughts about solid state forever. We had the excellent Dag S-250 in this system as well as a new prototype of another really excellent amp that is coming to market they were both really excellent but they did not reach where the M-1 soars.
    IMHO,
    Elliot

  26. #26
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Sorry to bump an older thread but Mike has some great amps in the first picture of this thread! Mike how did the D’Agostino compare to the VAC 200iqs that you have in the corner of the room?

  27. #27

    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Has anyone tried the Momentum Stereo S250 with MSB Reference DAC as a pre?

  28. #28

    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    We have the M400 monos, and we've tried them with the MSB Ref as well as the SELECT. In both cases, no preamp was always preferred to a preamp (to our ears), be it a REF 10 or a D'Agostino Momentum Pre.

    With the MSB REF DAC, going preamp-less was not as clear cut as with the SELECT, though, and there's always margin for taste. Some people might actually enjoy what the preamp is adding to the chain, in the case of the ARC preamps, the soundstage expands considerably, and goes full-on crazy 3D, even though you do lose a touch in the transparency department. Trade-offs, as usual...

  29. #29
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    Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    I agree with Alex 100%. I too have tried multiple preamps - Ayre, Gryphon, ARC, etc feeding the Select II and the preamp section in the Select II was the winner. I’ve had others listen with me, and they all agreed.


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  30. #30

    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Mike, maybe you wanted to say "feeding the s250".
    I know that Select 2 is spectacular, both as a DAC and as a Pre. I have listened to it as pre with MSB 204s.
    My question is how worse is the Reference DAC as a pre-amp and is it an adequate match for the s250 power amp? Also is there any difference in the maximum SPL one can achieve with the same speakers, S250 power and Reference or Select dac as a pre?

    Thank you!

  31. #31
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Quote Originally Posted by Nataraja View Post
    Mike, maybe you wanted to say "feeding the s250".
    I know that Select 2 is spectacular, both as a DAC and as a Pre. I have listened to it as pre with MSB 204s.
    My question is how worse is the Reference DAC as a pre-amp and is it an adequate match for the s250 power amp? Also is there any difference in the maximum SPL one can achieve with the same speakers, S250 power and Reference or Select dac as a pre?

    Thank you!
    I just talked to Vince at MSB regarding your question. If you go for the preamp module in the Ref, it’s the exact same as in the Select and far superior (according to Vince) then any stand alone line stage.

    When you run the numbers on the REF with the top preamp module, it looks good.


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  32. #32
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Mike,

    Any idea how the preamp in the Reference dac compares to the MSB Dac V (which is now discontinued).
    Thanks,
    Anshul

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I just talked to Vince at MSB regarding your question. If you go for the preamp module in the Ref, it’s the exact same as in the Select and far superior (according to Vince) then any stand alone line stage.

    When you run the numbers on the REF with the top preamp module, it looks good.


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  33. #33
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I just talked to Vince at MSB regarding your question. If you go for the preamp module in the Ref, it’s the exact same as in the Select and far superior (according to Vince) then any stand alone line stage.

    When you run the numbers on the REF with the top preamp module, it looks good.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I didn't find this to be the case vs. my MF TVC preamp. ymmv.

    I had also heard the preamp in the Select was slightly better, so this is interesting news that they are indeed the same.
    Brinkmann Bardo w/ EMT HSD-006 cart, MSB Reference DAC --> Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> Fyne Audio F1-12

  34. #34
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Quote Originally Posted by apdoc2004 View Post
    Mike,

    Any idea how the preamp in the Reference dac compares to the MSB Dac V (which is now discontinued).
    Thanks,
    Anshul
    It's not at the same level of performance.
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  35. #35

    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithR View Post
    I didn't find this to be the case vs. my MF TVC preamp. ymmv.

    I had also heard the preamp in the Select was slightly better, so this is interesting news that they are indeed the same.
    Of course, I don't agree. Keith's TVC preamp, while nice and incredible value for money, was blurring things up quite a bit, with a (pleasing, yes) "rounded" feel. Now, as I said before, whether you WANT that kind of artifact or not, that's debatable. But going direct was indeed much more transparent.

    The preamp modules are indeed the same, but the quantity of DAC modules *driving* that preamp module isn't. SELECT has 8 per side, while REF has "only" 4. That's enough to halve the output impedance (in SELECT), and make everything extra nice

  36. #36
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Quote Originally Posted by asiufy View Post
    Of course, I don't agree. Keith's TVC preamp, while nice and incredible value for money, was blurring things up quite a bit, with a (pleasing, yes) "rounded" feel. Now, as I said before, whether you WANT that kind of artifact or not, that's debatable. But going direct was indeed much more transparent.

    The preamp modules are indeed the same, but the quantity of DAC modules *driving* that preamp module isn't. SELECT has 8 per side, while REF has "only" 4. That's enough to halve the output impedance (in SELECT), and make everything extra nice
    Alex - the passive pre sounded like other resistor-based ones I've heard (my first was the FT Audio back in 2000!). Timbres were thin (violins, cellos, vocals, you name it), decay was curtailed, and overall it was less dynamic with a smaller soundstage. Did it have more detail? Perhaps, but I don't worship at the alter of detail as the music just wasn't there. I was actually quite surprised we differed on this, but horses for courses. I have also tried my Analog dac direct and wasn't a fan of the connection, although it is in a much lower league.

    Since the old Wadia days every DAC manufacturer feels compelled to have us ditch our preamps. Unfortunately, I've yet to find one where that has worked out. If fact, I was extremely pessimistic about even a TVC doing anything for me and was pleasantly surprised when it beat out several tube preamps *and* was more transparent. Including one rather well-regarded "blurry" one you heard

    Matej @ Mono and Stereo uses a Bespoke Audio TVC in front of his Select- which is a similar concept and he feels is more transparent. Admittedly he has a full silver transformer rig which is probably a step higher than mine and might add the last drop of detail you felt was missing. Silver trannies are very expensive!

    Perhaps Mike can give the forum some idea of how going direct with the Select compares with the preamps he carries. It does make the math much more compelling on the Select if you can replace a big name preamp.
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  37. #37

    Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Quote Originally Posted by asiufy View Post
    Of course, I don't agree. Keith's TVC preamp, while nice and incredible value for money, was blurring things up quite a bit, with a (pleasing, yes) "rounded" feel. Now, as I said before, whether you WANT that kind of artifact or not, that's debatable. But going direct was indeed much more transparent.

    The preamp modules are indeed the same, but the quantity of DAC modules *driving* that preamp module isn't. SELECT has 8 per side, while REF has "only" 4. That's enough to halve the output impedance (in SELECT), and make everything extra nice
    I don’t think the number of DAC circuits actually affects the pre-amp qualities of the Select II per se.

    The Nyquist has also 8 DAC circuits per channel (it’s a full double-mono setup). The benefit of that is that the DAC outputs are combined to lower the noise floor, randomize any conversion errors and create a balanced output signal. This does affect the conversion accuracy and noise floor.

    Pre or not-to-pre has been discussed on this forum quite a few times and while some like it direct for detail retrieval, others feel that driving the power amp with a DAC sounds a tad dry.


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  38. #38
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    From a technical perspective, if my math is correct, the Select II has 8x DACs and the output is summed (with no amplification stage). The XLR output on the on the Select II is 75ohm's vs 150 ohms on the MSB REF DAC. So the Select II preamp module has no problem driving almost any amp, especially one like the D'Agostino which has input impedance of 1m ohm.

    That being said, I have tried all of the DAC's in the store direct into the amps (Chord, PS Audio, Ayre, Lampizator, Berkeley, etc.) and in every case, a preamp in the mix was definitely preferred. However, that all changed with the Select II and it's purposely designed preamp module. I compared it to the REF10, VAC and Gryphon preamps and without question preferred the Preamp module in the Select II.

    When MSB told me, "we are so confident in our preamp module, we will put it up against any preamp, regardless of price", my reaction was "yeah, right." It appears they are correct.
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  39. #39
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    Thanks Mike - that is great to hear. Maybe the sum of the parts with the Select make it work better. Its a very compelling argument when you can eliminate a $30k box, IC, and power cord with the Select.

    I know MikeL wanted to try the Select direct to his amps, but needs a Zeel output for the Select. Hopefully he can chime in on the results at some point.

    The input impedance of my Ref 75SE is 300k ohms.
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  40. #40

    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    SELECT has 8 modules per channel, for a total of 16. That will not only drive amps directly, but do it at a lower impedance (75). This lower impedance is likely what's helping the SELECT preamp module handle amps better than the REF.

  41. #41
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    So to summarize:

    The Select II and Reference have the same upgraded preamp module. The only difference is the height of the preamp module to match their respective chassis.

    Both the Select II and Reference share the same digital input modules.

    The Select II DAC has 8 DAC modules with 16 total DACs.
    The Reference has 4 DAC modules with 8 total DACs.

    The balanced output voltage is identical at 3.57 Volts RMS.
    The output current is greater for the Select II, due to twice the number of DACs, although they don’t publish the spec.

    The Select II has lower noise and higher dynamic range due to twice the number of DACs.
    The Select II balanced output impedance is 75 ohms and the Reference is 150 ohms due to twice the number of DACs.

    Please correct me if I’m wrong on any point.

    Thanks,
    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
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  42. #42
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    I don't get it -- why should a 75 ohm drop in output impedance of a preamp drive amps with input impedance of > 50000 ohms better? As long as the output impedance of the preamp is 20 times lower, this difference in the preamp sections of the 2 dacs should not matter.
    Anshul

    Quote Originally Posted by asiufy View Post
    SELECT has 8 modules per channel, for a total of 16. That will not only drive amps directly, but do it at a lower impedance (75). This lower impedance is likely what's helping the SELECT preamp module handle amps better than the REF.

  43. #43

    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    apdoc2004,

    I'm going by what I heard. I've heard the REF and SELECT in the same system, both going direct to amp. And the system with the SELECT controlled the bass better than when we had the REF on.

    Lower impedance, extra output current, it's hard to say, specially since the rest of the system was unknown to me. I'm just reporting what I heard.


    cheers,
    alex

  44. #44
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    Re: Trying out the D'Agostino S250

    I agree with Alex.


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Trying out the D'Agostino S250

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